My new cab

Yep, guess that leaves out a lot of Ferraris, Jaguars, Porsches, Bugattis, BMWs, Corvettes, and some other sports cars. Ooops, I guess they aren

Charles, while Steve continues to add the modern computers and electronics into these cars, I think it comes to a point where some feel "is it necessary" and does it take away the "Old School" organic feel people look for in these cars.

It's a personal choice for sure and if you plan to do 300HP and drive like an idiot in a plastic car, than VDC is needed. But even with VDC or PSM as Porsche calls it, I can still easily put the Porsche Boxster sideways if I push it. When I drive the IM I get on it mildly in comparison to the Porsche Boxster (which I tend to push harder). The IM or 356's in general are for curves and cruising. At least thats how I feel when I get behind the wheel. Steve is quite the engineer for sure and in the end choice is a good thing. Danny is an 18 year old in 40 year old body, and thats why I like him:-)

I've been passing over this thread, but it just took an interesting turn for me.

Charles, to answer your question: no, they are not "sports cars".

The original defining characteristic of a sports car is that everything that is not necessary to the connection of the driver to the road is removed from the car. "Less is more" was (and is still, to me) the creed.

Modern Ferraris, Jaguars, Porsches, Bugattis, BMWs, and Corvettes are not "sports cars"-- they are "performance cars" which are blindingly fast, extremely capable, and laden with enough electronic frippery to make even a ham-handed pipe-fitter like me feel like Sterling Moss.

In 2012, it's not even possible to order Ferrari's fastest offering with a manual transmission-- the computer will take care of all that clutching stuff for you. Yeah, it's faster than me. Yeah, it can heel and toe on a downshift better than I ever could with my size 11 Redwings. But really-- if I want the car to do everything for me, I'll just drive the minivan, thanks.

I have nothing against modern performance cars. I'd love to have one to park next to my speedster. But if I did, I wouldn't delude myself that I owned two sports cars.

A sports car connects me to the road, and to the machine. A sports car feels like a machine, not like a digitally controlled appliance. A new BMW M5 uses the stereo to pipe an engine sound-track into the car. Seriously? This is a desirable thing why, exactly?

The desire to replicate a car that was the epitome of the "less is more" sports car ethos of the '50s and '60s and load it down with a bunch of modern goo-gaws really vexes me.

Stan,

Lotus 7...

Gentlemen.............what each of you has to say is pertinent to the discussion and we all have our own opinions. There is no "right" or "wrong"; just what is right and wrong for you. When I was in my 20s, 30s and 40s I had "sports" cars and thought that the move from side curtains on my TR3 to wind up windows on my MGB and then an actual roof over my head in my MGBGT was the cat's pajamas. I'm now 75 and ANY assistance I can get is welcomed. Because SAS utilizes pretty much the entire wiring harness and OBDII computer system of the donor car, the ABS and the VDC are an integral part of my build. I'm not about to throw out the baby with the bathwater because I'm looking for a more "seat-of-the-pants" ride. Does all of this make my ride any less of a "sports" car than someone who incorporates 50-60 year old technology in a new build? I think not.

Wow, and I wonder why women wear makeup.

John-

I mean no disrespect for what Steve Lawing is able to do, nor to the guys for whom this scratches an itch. I'm sure your car will be fantastic, and I wish you nothing but the best.

I can work on, understand, and improve my air-cooled car. It connects me to a time when I got places by my own wits, some spare parts, and a bag of wrenches. And that's exactly why I chose it over a C6 Corvette or 987 Boxster, cars which (by the way) are superior to my car by every reasonable meteric.

I don't care. I love working on it almost as much as driving it (and I love driving it more than eating). I can't work on an OBD2 car, no matter how capable it may be.

Thanks Stan.......I didn't think for a minute that I was being "dissed". I'm just not mechanically inclined. The last car I worked on was a Model A Ford I had in High School. I did a valve job on her and she actually ran when I got her back together. That was in 1954. Modern automobile technology both fascinates and repels me. Perhaps if I'd kept up with my initial foray into the world of auto fixology I'd be better able to appreciate the ins and outs of the air-cooled engine. I'm afraid at my age the old adage of "you can't teach and old dog....." is entirely true. Hell, I don't even have a gas lawn mower. I'm much more comfortable in "letting George do it" (or in this case, letting Steve do it). I'm sure glad that someone kept up with this technology.

Great discussion! I learn something new every time I visit this site. It also reinforces the logic of having 31 flavors at Baskin & Robins! 8-)

John - your car is going to be awesome by any standard. Call it a hunch, But I'm betting that once you get behind the wheel of your car and on the road for the very first time, the ONLY thing that will matter is the gratification of top-down cruising and that big-ass smile on your face! 8-)

Raise your hand if your car has carpet. :

Hmmmm. I'm thinking about whether to post or not, but I can't hold it in.
Stan: I once heard you refer to yourself as a "retro grouch". I'm glad that you see things the way that you do. You help to keep tradition alive in our group and I thank you for that.
Cory: The Hoopty rocks! Always will. Maybe this year I'll be brave enough to take it for a spin....if I can reach the pedals.
Jim: Your words, photos and videos capture the beauty and spirit of our hobby. You da man!
John: Just wait. The best is yet to come. And it won't be much longer.
I value all of you more than you know. Thanks.
Hoss

Sludge- A Lotus 7 would be perfect if it hadn't fallen out of the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down. It's got a face only a mother could love.

Hoss- Thanks for understanding. Not many people do.

Cory- I had Henry build me a "coach" (no running gear) because I really, really cared about the stuff nobody can see. After crawling under a few of his cars, I had to have one. Since it was delivered, I've built pretty significantly (and several times) on his foundation, but the bones are all Intermeccancia-- I mess with the stuff I like to mess with (engines and transaxles). Even though I do have carpet (for now)-- no matter what I do, I always endeavor to keep my car's "edge". BTW: wait until you see the exhaust and dry sump set-up I've been building-- IMHO, it's full on retro-weekend-warrior heaven.

Jim- If I was half as cool as you, I'd be happy. "Can't we all just get a longboard?"

Stan:

After three laps around Lime Rock, or Warkins Glen or whatever track you like in a properly set up Caterham or Lotus 7 and I swear that you would come away believing that they're a pair of the most beautiful cars in the world. Yup, they're that much fun.

Like I said when I bought my Speedy from Sludge, no radio, no air conditioning, basically no heat, no lighter, no converter plug, no problem.

Now I'm thinking about losing the carpets, going to rubber mats, tossing out the moon hubcaps, slappin on some driving lights, losing the monza type exhaust and having Stan tune the Dell's when he has some time.

And Stan, that Type 4 idea we used to talk about isn't dead, just hiding in the weeds for a year or so.

My take is that there is something out there for everyone in the Speedster world. I like the high tech safety stuff and hate to work on any car

Thanks Charles. Nice summation of the discussion.

X2 Charles. One of the reasons I got allowed myself to succumb to The Madness was the variety of cars I saw when I first came to Carlisle in '05. Everyone had the freedom to make the car their own expression of their love of sports cars. I like the diversity. Does that make me a Liberal? ;-)

I am currently at the point where I love the "go-kart with leather upholstery" character of many of the cars (including my own), but I can also see the attraction of niceties like roll-up windows and maintenance-free drive-trains. As time goes on and we get older, the desire (and ability) to climb under the car to fix something lessens, the novelty of rain INSIDE the car wears thin, and we are happy to give up a bit of rawness for some comfort. I am already getting some of those urges myself, but have successfully resisted them so far.

Lane, I always thought you were a bit left of center. As we get older our tastes for things change. In my 40s I didn't think twice about building my first kit, then in mid 50s I built my second. Now in my 70s I sometimes find it hard to tie my shoes in the morning. Would I like to build another? My mind says yes but the body tells me that it ain't going to happen. So to feed my ego, I drive a replica that looks like a classic and drives like modern car. Let's face it, none of our cars are authentic, they are what they are, replicas that in every case are somewhat improved over the original. So enjoy cruising in your baby, wave at the pretty girls and wear that SEG with pride.

A good deal of wisdom and practicality expressed in the last few posts.

I

Good question Felix - well thought out. Steve at SAS has been working on this feature for the last year and did not want to jump to immediate conclusions about its appropriateness. He probably had the same issues that you have posed. Being an automotive design engineer ,he is very disciplined in these sensitive areas.

He explained it to me like this. The Subaru VDC is integrated with the ABS. There are four sensors required for input to the VDC controller - fore/aft G force, lateral G Force, yaw axis sensor, and steering angle position sensor. The operation of the VDC has nothing to do with weight of the car, its weight bias, wheel track, or steering ratio. The VDC controller is programmed for attitude corrections based upon the displacement of the car from the

As a non-wrencher and complete buffoon when it comes to mechanical devices, it's nice to have the VDC system explained in layman's language and in simple enough terms that I can understand it. Having owned Subarus for many years, and living in the Northeast with it's unpredictable weather, I've experienced first hand the technical advances in stability control that take some of the uncertainty out of driving in treacherous conditions. Coming back from Boston yesterday during a torrential rainstorm, I never once felt out of control in my Outback. I sleep better knowing my ABS and VDC are helping me negotiate near freeway speeds during bad weather in safety and comfort. As my new cabriolet will be an everyday driver for me, I am doubly glad I picked SAS as my builder.

I am glad you guys like all those advances. I have some of them in my daily driver, ABS, AWD, EFI, Distributorless ignition etc. My first AWD was an Audi Quattro. It had ABS(with an off switch) and user operated locking differentials. The only time you had to lock the differentials was if you got stuck. The mechanical ratios built into the quattro system worked just fine. On a Suby STI, you can control the center diff bias, to get either more over or understeer. AWD, good tires, and driving skill will get you there. ABS is good insurance, in a panic situation. VDC, probably a good thing too, depending on the situation. I personally don't get how it could be adapted to a completely different vehicle(which a SAW/SAS car is) from what it was designed for without a complete rewrite of the code in the computer. I would like to hear from Steve Lawing himself on how this is done or why it ISN'T necessary.

I will stand by my original statement: those electronic doodads are not for ME in a sports car. They may be for you, and that's cool.

BTW, Rob Young's STI SAW weighed 2387 pounds, wet. Take out the turbo and intercooler and I'd say you are right around 2300 pounds for a non-turbo version.

"The operation of the VDC has nothing to do with weight of the car, its weight bias, wheel track, or steering ratio. The VDC controller is programmed for attitude corrections based upon the displacement of the car from the

It would be my observation that the weight of a Subaru is variable with passengers and load. Compare an empty cargo Subaru with low fuel to a fully loaded Subaru with five passengers. Big weight change that could be as high as 1100 pounds. How does VDC adjust for that? It doesn't - just attitude.

Anyhow, you can just turn it off if you don't want it.

Having thought about this a little more, since the SAS Cabs are 356 bodied Subarus weighing hundreds of pounds less, the VDC system would bring the car into design parameter quicker than the system would do in a stock Subaru. Less weight would mean a shorter time interval to bring the car back into the design attitude.

Heck, sports cars are known for being light so that they respond quicker. Seems to me that the VDC system is consistent with that philosophy.

Chuck, it seems we are in agreement on the weight. 100 pounds could easily be the difference between dry and wet, gas, oil, and water. I know my Spyder varies about 60 pounds between full and almost empty, and that's only about 7 gallons at 6 pounds per gallon. 2 gallons of water at 8.3 per is another 16, another 10 pounds for oil. How many gallon tank in an SAS car? Rob's car was weighed by me at Carlisle on my calibrated digital scales, along with about 10 other cars that long day! Even though you all assumed my weight comment to be directed at VDC, it really had nothing to do with that. Someone made a comment that an SAS weighed about 2000 pounds. I was just trying to clarify with actual data. Speedsters weigh from mid 1700s on up depending on manufacturer, glass layup(varies greatly=CMC!), and equipment.

I do understand many concepts here, computers, fly by wire, inertial and speed sensors, ABS, etc. I guess I am just trying to understand the fact that a 4wd(AWD) front engine car is changed to a mid/rear engine RWD(now 2wd) car, and the power redirection and spark retard function of the VDC. Obviously spark retard would have a different effect on the two different setups just because of physics and vehicle dynamics. Also, how is power redirected? The front wheels aren't driving wheels in the new configuration. That's really what I was looking to understand, I guess I wasn't clear. At best, the computer will be a little slow to react, as it won't be getting the results it is expecting. Worst case, it freezes or glitches, at the worst possible moment in your driving experience!! I wouldn't want either in a car at/over the limit in either a purposely caused(driver fun?) or in an emergency maneuver. Again, I am just trying to understand.

John, I hope your car is everything you want it to be. The four or five cars from SAS I have seen are all very well done, in all respects.

Dan, your points of caution are well taken. Based on what I have seen to date, I am convinced that Steve will exhaustively test this conversion to ensure that no functional anomalies occur just as he has with the mid-engine configuration, manual 5-speed shifter, air conditioning, engine cooling, bump steer, ABS, weather sealing and other features of his 356A replicas. In our conversations about the VDC feature, he acknowledged that many Subaru owners report that they don

And I thought this was going to be a simple little thread. Hah! This is FUN!

Silly man ....

Charles, are you sure there isn't some other add-on for my car? I'd like to see something more than just VDC.

Charles, thanks for the feedback. Any stability control system is just a control system

Felix, you and Dan have brought a new level of technical discussion to the forum that goes beyond the typical topics. Looks like you and Steve could have a very energetic technical get-together. Steve drove a 1969 911T for over 10 years as his daily driver and that experience had a lot to do with his choices in developing the mid-engine 356A models.

He related his experience of having the rear-end come around on some spirited driving experiences, and those experiences were the catalyst for the mid-engine design. He also has some humorous stories about having to keep an old credit card on the dashboard in the winter to scrape the ice off the inside of the windshield, but in spite of those discomforts he says he would not trade the experience of driving the 911T.

I suspect you will see a YouTube presentation on the VDC feature in conjunction with the ABS, power brakes, and

John you need to leave a few options for us plus we are having too much fun with the VDC discussions. This is a far cry from the typical discussions we encounter - deciding what color or which steering wheel to select.

Have you considered white side walls?

Charles - I'd love to visit Steve's shop some day and check out his latest creations.

Steve's shop is like a crazy inventor's lab - partially completed projects scattered everywhere, little of which looks like it will ever work, and all of it liberally coated with sanding dust. And yet he continues to put out some impressive cars.

It's worth the trip as he and his wife are great hosts.

I asked Steve to provide some instructions about raising and lowering the top on my new SAS 356A Cabriolet since I did not want to get caught out in a rain and be unable to raise the top quickly enough. He made a short video with some specific instructions. Surprised the hell out of me.

http://youtu.be/OsGVgwwk2CM

Wow, now I could something like that. Any idea what Steve charges to retrofit the antique SAS cabs?

Here what I have to say about this ...