My T4 build

@550 Phil posted:

I hope so. It’s been a long time coming. Bought those 1989 48 Dellortos (new in the original box from Italy) in 1999 and have been storing them for 25 years. I’ve been waiting to build a massive T4. The time is now. I think the 2000 IM Conv D I bought will make a good home. Antique carburetors in an antique car for an antique owner. I’ve paid my dues and I deserve this car. At least that’s what I tell my wife.

Wait till she says, hey your retired, when do I retire from “housekeeping”   lol  

Or… hey that car cost X $…. not I have an open to buy for X $ …    

Your mileage may vary

It’s done. Couldn’t figure out how to post video. It’s impressive.
2.65 L T4. 48 Dellortos

8.5:1 compression.
196 hp tuned and dyno’d. 202 ft-lbs.

That will probably be enough power.

Yikes!!!!!

That’ll do it.

Wow is all I can say

Not to go all ALB on you, but would you happen to have a dyno curve to post? 202 lb ft of torque where? The whole advantage of big displacement is big torque much further down the RPM range. Torque from 2000- 4000 RPM is the entire point of it.

I’ll ask Pat if he can send me the dyno.   I’m extremely happy with those numbers. Going to be fun.

@550 Phil posted:

I’ll ask Pat if he can send me the dyno.

That’d be great, Phil.

Engine made 202 ft-lbs @ 4500 rpm

                         196 hp @  5750 rpm    

Here is the video of the pull.  

I wonder how this engine compares to Phil's subie for torque and hp and general driveability.  I mean outside of dealing with carbs or EFI, it would be a lot lighter with no rads, but then AC and heat is doable with a mini split just kidding.

The power/weight ratio is going to be, um, sporting, to say the least.  Yow!

Thanks Rick. This is the video I was trying to post. I think this engine will be stronger than the EJ25 in my Spyder. But I think for different purposes. Subaru in my Spyder revs quick and high. This engine will have lots of torque for leisurely driving in any gear. 2 different cars for different purposes.

We'll see. 4500 is not "loafing along". I'm really interested in the 2000- 4000 RPM torque numbers. Most guys don't even start taking readings until 3000 RPM, which drives me crazy.

That is one of the things with a type-I my 2110cc was a bit temperamental off the line but thinking back i might have had a carb issue.  My subie is not that way.

Phil's Dyno sheet

187hp. 196 Ft lbs

I think this may have been the original curves before it was tuned. Tuning I think pushed it to 196hp 202 Ft lbs.

But either way pretty good numbers.

I was just wondering how that might compare to a Subaru 2.5 NA, like from a Forester.  I know that my wife's Outback has a lot of torque grunt even down around 2K rpm.  I  found this run and accompanying thread (they don't believe some dyno quotes, either).  That is one flat torque response:

Here is the rest of that thread, if you're interested:

https://www.subaruforester.org...for-a-2-5-n-a.34099/

@Stan Galat posted:

We'll see. 4500 is not "loafing along". I'm really interested in the 2000- 4000 RPM torque numbers. Most guys don't even start taking readings until 3000 RPM, which drives me crazy.

For sure Stan, since i have a subie and it does pull below 2K, this is one of the nicest features of this boxer engine, the oodles of torque.  Anything close to that in a AC set up would be really nice especially if a builder like Pat D can deliver these with consistent engine quality which he has done with 2110cc and other engines in the Type 1 space.  Now adding EFI might satisfy the turn the key and go crowd… well maybe… but then no water plumbing, not counting the oil cooler of course.  Nice nice engine.

The Forester dyno curve Gordon put up Illustrates what I'm talking about.

Notice that it's dead-flat from idle to 5500 RPM, where it tails off pretty hard. The peak HP is pretty plebeian (120 hp), but it FEELS strong because the torque is everywhere. Everybody here always talks about how strong Subaru's feel, because they have power "under the curve", which means a lot more than a peak number in a place where a street car won't use it.

Phil's engine has 130 lb ft at the lowest reading Pat took (3200 RPM), which is within a few lb/ft of the Subaru curve Gordon put up. The difference is that the Subaru just lays there, hanging out between 130 and 140 lb/ft, while the big T4 keeps headed up and is at 190 lb/ft by 3700 RPM.

Geared properly, this thing will twist the earth off its axis.

Is that really where the coil goes?  And yes, I'd say that really ought to be enough. Then again, one of our sages here, forget his name (wink-wink),  holds that more is more, and others have claimed you just can't have too much HP.  My observation is that no matter how much HP/torque you might have, there is always some a**hole comes along with more.

there’s always a bigger, fish..::

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=...IGZpc2ggc3RhciB3YXJz

Having said that that’s a pretty nice torque curve on that type IV.  it would be awesome to see how it compares in driveability for feel to an IM with Subie

I hope I get to see that car someday … who knows if IM will start again

Seems others in lower earth are experimenting with a similar engine https://www.wpvw.com.au/vw-per...ce-type-4-2733cc.htm

@550 Phil

https://www.wpvw.com.au/sharpbuilt.htm

tranny upgrades and oil cooling upgrades are on this site it seems they put those engines in a Ghia and have no cooling issues with their mods.  Phil it might be worth a read.

@550 Phil, what heads and cam?  Did Pat do the heads or did someone else supply them?  

2650cc 78mm x 104mm type-4 engine kit with 48x38 ported and polished heads, dual springs, titanium retainers, 70cc reshaped combustion chambers. lightweight chromoly flywheel, 256@.050 duration cam, stage-2 Kennedy clutch, daycon 200mm clutch disc, .058 wall Manton chromoly push rods, JE 104mm pistons, Total seal piston rings, 5.158 length H beam connecting rods with ARP 2000 bolts, DIY-123 ignition

I’m hoping to eventually get the tuned dyno grafts. I’m hoping to get the final gearing specs for my transmission. But hey it’s Sunday. When I get all specs I’ll let you know. I’m trying to figure all this out while I’m a full time doc with full time call. I really do want everyone’s opinion about what they would have done differently because eventually someone will do something very similar but all of my parts have been chosen.

  You are building a great power train!

I'll just be over here drooling.

@Stan Galat posted:

We'll see. 4500 is not "loafing along". I'm really interested in the 2000- 4000 RPM torque numbers. Most guys don't even start taking readings until 3000 RPM, which drives me crazy.

Stan, The last thing you want to do is lug a brand new engine down to 2k rpm on a water brake dyno. A water brake dyno applies 100% load at your starting rpm and then ramps it back until your ending rpm.
  It’s comparable putting your car in 4th gear and pulling away from a 2k cruise foot to the floor. A horrible thing to do to an engine not fully broke in.
This is coming from an engine builder with 42 years of experience building engines and running a dyno.
  Phil’s engine makes 193 ft lbs of torque at 3400 rpm and peaks at 204 ft lbs at 4500, an extremely flat torque curve.

@Pat Downs posted:

Stan, The last thing you want to do is lug a brand new engine down to 2k rpm on a water brake dyno. A water brake dyno applies 100% load at your starting rpm and then ramps it back until your ending rpm.

Thanks for the explanation, Pat. That makes perfect sense.

I always wondered why nobody ever had sub 3500 numbers on these engines and now I know. 100% load at starting RPM. I've never used or seen a dyno used (other than in a youtube), so I don't know bupkis. I appreciate you piping up.

It's an awesome engine.

As far as your experience, it's not JUST your years of experience, but what you've done with them. You've single-handedly done more to move this hobby ahead than anybody I can think of (Gene Berg and all the 1960s luminaries included).

I appreciate learning. Thanks.

Thank you Stan, just wanted to clarify why I don’t load new engines down to extremely low rpm’s.

Wow, that is great information to know on why the numbers start at 3K.  Makes perfect sense.

BTW Pat is starting on another 2650cc Type 4. I guess he’s in the Type 4 business now, just in case anyone else is looking. With Fat Performance out of business there aren’t too many Type 4 builders left. I’m starting to get a little excited. In a couple months I should be driving my IM Type 4.

@550 Phil- Your IM is going to be killer!  Please post the gearing numbers.  Do you know how much your car weighs?

@ALB posted:

@550 Phil- Your IM is going to be killer!  Please post the gearing numbers.  Do you know how much your car weighs?

Al, if I remember right most IM's with FRAME, weigh 2100 to 2200lbs depending on set up, engine etc etc.

@IaM-Ray posted:

Al, if I remember right most IM's with FRAME, weigh 2100 to 2200lbs depending on set up, engine etc etc.

You might want to add a little to that. I think Bob Carley's was about 2450 or so.

@DannyP posted:

You might want to add a little to that. I think Bob Carley's was about 2450 or so.

That is a special. I am six he has a bigger square tube frame longer frame, and gussets and a full 911 suspension front and back so you’re right 2450 for his car would be normal, but most cars built would be beam suspension and the 900 series front end was used much later.  a car from 2000 to 2004 would be a beam suspension.  I don’t know everything lol so subject to correction.

Ray, I know all that. Believe me, I am pretty familiar with Bob's and Howard's cars.

How much does yours weigh with the Subaru and dual radiators?

@DannyP posted:

Ray, I know all that. Believe me, I am pretty familiar with Bob's and Howard's cars.

How much does yours weigh with the Subaru and dual radiators?

Since you know all things IM  do tell  

More to the point, I have never weighed the car honestly and the weight is a guestimate from my conversations with Henry and the extra rads, plus all the gallons of Evans coolant.

As far as I can figure:

Engine made 204 ft-lbs @ 4500 rpm

                         196 hp @  5750 rpm

@IaM-Ray posted:

Since you know all things IM  do tell  

More to the point, I have never weighed the car honestly and the weight is a guestimate from my conversations with Henry and the extra rads, plus all the gallons of Evans coolant.

I am not an IM expert. I have nosed all around those two cars plus Marty's turbo and had rides in all three. Plus I happened to weigh Bob's at Carlisle the year I brought my scales.

One would think with your penchant for details you'd have had yours weighed, Ray.

@550 Phil that engine sounds more than adequate!!!!

Stock gears and a 3.44 final. It's a good all-round trans. That is what's currently in my Spyder.

Thanks Danny. I think it will be a well balanced car. I’m really not concerned that much about weight and performance. Yes I want it to be powerful and have the ability to handle highway cruising. But I’m not doing any burnouts in this car or any crazy driving. I’ve got my 200hp Suby Spyder with the LSD (or whatever you call it) for that. My wife loved my old IM. Just trying to get back there.