My turn to gripe, Ricardo. The Wrench began the 'hacking apart the engine' process last night. I gotta re-do my heads. I'm going to take them to Peek.
Apparently, my push-rods are a wee bit too short, and my heads aren't seating exactly right onto my cylinders (among other small annoyances, they're off by a whopping .002"), so they'll be going under the milling machine. The advice is to take them down .006" and re-assemble the whole works with copper gaskets.
We still don't know what's causing the tapping noise, so he'll be cracking the block this week.
Good to hear from you man! It's been a while and we've been missing your posts. I wish you the best of luck with this; I hope the problems are minor.
She's done. Had to go to Sears twice to get the right size Craftsman wrench (22 mm) to fit the reverse light switch in the transaxle. I thought it was going to be hard to take out and re-install with the washer being in such tight quarters but it was a breeze with the right tool. I topped the transaxle with hypoid oil and she's ready. Weather here has been great for the past two or three weeks; definitely convertible weather so I'll try to use the car as much as possible until it starts raining again.
Use the video camera tool, too!
Definitely need to do that, bro! I'll check my camera's manual and if I have any problems uploading it I'll give you a holler!
Finally shot some short videos with the camera, Cory; nothing special but it's a start. How do I post them on Google or Youtube so that they can be seen here?
Ricardo -
I'm no expert on this by a longshot but here's how I've posted my video clips on YouTube;
1. I download the clip onto my computer
2. If not already a YouTube member, follow prompts to sign on (free)
2. When your YouTube membership is verified, find Upload Video feature.
3. Follow prompts to upload your clip.
4. When your video has been successfully uploaded onto YouTube, you can copy the address that's in the "Embed" window and then attach that to the YouTube field of your "Post Reply".
I think there may also be info on this in the SOC FAQ section. On this site Homepage click 'Help us - Donate', then at the bottom of the next screen click 'Help, Questions, Comments'.
Looking forward to seeing video of your car in action!
I'm no expert on this by a longshot but here's how I've posted my video clips on YouTube;
1. I download the clip onto my computer
2. If not already a YouTube member, follow prompts to sign on (free)
2. When your YouTube membership is verified, find Upload Video feature.
3. Follow prompts to upload your clip.
4. When your video has been successfully uploaded onto YouTube, you can copy the address that's in the "Embed" window and then attach that to the YouTube field of your "Post Reply".
I think there may also be info on this in the SOC FAQ section. On this site Homepage click 'Help us - Donate', then at the bottom of the next screen click 'Help, Questions, Comments'.
Looking forward to seeing video of your car in action!
Thanks Jimbo! I followed all those steps and uploaded three short movies but it seems like it takes some time for the videos to be available to the public, am I right? Here's the first one available:
This is the other one:
And the third one....
Now I can do another one on the road....
Now I can do another one on the road....
Ricardo
Great videos.
Great videos.
Brilliant.
ricardo - awesome car, i don't know if it's the video or me, but i hear one valve that sounds out of adjustment. The frequency of the sound sounds like a valve. Maybe you should check them. otherwise that's a really nice car.
Thanks for the comments, guys. Regarding the ticking sound; it's definitely the chromoly pushrods. I already knew that but double checked the valve adjustment last night because of your comments and the adjustment was right on. I also verified it with knowledgeable VW people and they confirmed it. I'll try to post some driving on the road videos next time.
Was told once by a German Formula I driver, "It is better to hear your valves than smell them".
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ricardo, solid pushrods (chromoly) should be really quiet. Actually solid pushrods set to factory spec (0.006") would cause a really loud ticking. If you are using solid pushrods, they should be set to a "loose 0" meaning you adjust them until just to the point where you can still spin them with your finger, not 0.006" (or o.004" on the earlier spec), i believe that vw changed the spec from 0.004 to 0.006 just as a margin of error and to increase the adjustment interval. The reason why they should be adjusted to a loose 0 is because they are not effected by heat, and don't expand/grow in length when the engine is at operating temperature. If you have stock pushrods, they should be set to 0.006".
martin
martin
Nolan, what's the name of the F1 driver?
Ricardo
More videos please. If possible,try to make a video when the car is in action (of course someone else will film it),and one,when the car is parked.
Ricardo
More videos please. If possible,try to make a video when the car is in action (of course someone else will film it),and one,when the car is parked.
You're right on Martin and that's exactly the way my valves are adjusted; loose zero lash. FWIW my pushrods are Gene Berg units; I don't think they can be solid because oil couldn't flow through them in that case.
Lambros: I'm surprised that I can remember his name, Wolfgang Davel. He wasn't famous but he was the president of the Efiel Sports Car Club. He also taught us how to drive Nuerenburgring. I must have been asleep through part of his lessons as I spun out my Austin Healey 100/6 twice trying to do a lap in 14 minutes- I never got below 20 minutes.
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ricardo,
i think the term "solid" refers to the chromoly pushrods, but they are'nt indeed solid.
i just watched your videos again, and maybe the mic on the camera is playing tricks, but i swear i hear one valve ticking really bad. If you listen to the frequency of the noise it sounds to me like its one valve, not all of them, just one. Perhapps you have a sticking valve??? You could run the engine at idle and put a long screwdriver and touch it onto the valve cover on both sides and put the other end to your ear (poor mans stethiscope) and see if it sounds the same on both sides of the motor. If that tick was as loud as it is in the video as it is in person; i'd definetly think there was an issue somewhere. I noticed it right away when i saw your videos. Are you running ratio rockers?? maybe they are hitting the pushrod tubes or the valve cover???
You could also pull the rockers off, and depress each valve by hand and see if any stick open or bind (just make sure that cyl is not at tdc; allthough you would'nt do any damage just pushing the valve by hand).
Alot or people say that chromolies are louder than the stock allum ones, that's true if the lash is not adjusted to "0". My 74 beetle (stock 1600DP) ticks, all the valves tick a bit. My VS 1835 stock otherwise except for intake valves is very quiet in the valve train department.
martin
i think the term "solid" refers to the chromoly pushrods, but they are'nt indeed solid.
i just watched your videos again, and maybe the mic on the camera is playing tricks, but i swear i hear one valve ticking really bad. If you listen to the frequency of the noise it sounds to me like its one valve, not all of them, just one. Perhapps you have a sticking valve??? You could run the engine at idle and put a long screwdriver and touch it onto the valve cover on both sides and put the other end to your ear (poor mans stethiscope) and see if it sounds the same on both sides of the motor. If that tick was as loud as it is in the video as it is in person; i'd definetly think there was an issue somewhere. I noticed it right away when i saw your videos. Are you running ratio rockers?? maybe they are hitting the pushrod tubes or the valve cover???
You could also pull the rockers off, and depress each valve by hand and see if any stick open or bind (just make sure that cyl is not at tdc; allthough you would'nt do any damage just pushing the valve by hand).
Alot or people say that chromolies are louder than the stock allum ones, that's true if the lash is not adjusted to "0". My 74 beetle (stock 1600DP) ticks, all the valves tick a bit. My VS 1835 stock otherwise except for intake valves is very quiet in the valve train department.
martin
Ok, just talked to the "wrench" here and he's going to take a look at it tomorrow.
ricardo,
do this quick easy test: warm up the engine (operating temp), then get a really long screw driver, or tire iron, anything long and of a good size that's metal, then hold one end onto the valve cover with the engine running (idle) and the other end pressed tightly on your ear, you can really hear the noises as if you were right in the engine, compare both sides (drivers and passenger) and see if you hear a difference between the two. You can even move the tool to one side of the valve cover to the other and really pin-point where a noise is comming from, that might give you a clue as to which cylinder/valve is making noise if any.
martin
do this quick easy test: warm up the engine (operating temp), then get a really long screw driver, or tire iron, anything long and of a good size that's metal, then hold one end onto the valve cover with the engine running (idle) and the other end pressed tightly on your ear, you can really hear the noises as if you were right in the engine, compare both sides (drivers and passenger) and see if you hear a difference between the two. You can even move the tool to one side of the valve cover to the other and really pin-point where a noise is comming from, that might give you a clue as to which cylinder/valve is making noise if any.
martin
Thanks for the pointers Martin; I'll use them. I also forgot to say that the "wrench" here told me that sort of noise can be caused by worn lifter bores but mostly in high mileage engines...this one's new and does not even have 5,000 miles on it!
My guess would be a simple out of adjustment valve, broken valve spring, or a sticking valve (valve guide/valve). Try my test, what your looking for is a differnece in sound from side to side, it should only take you about 3 mins to do, and it will tell you alot; like i said it could just be the mic on your camera playing tricks, but i specifically hear one valve that's not too happy. You could also have a cam issue, like a flat lobe, or stuck lifter/follower, but that you can also measure, buy turning the engine with a dial indicator on each rocker arm in the same spot for all rockers as you rotate the engine by hand and look for the difference in measurement with the valve open and closed, and compare all the intake and exhause measurements, your only looking that it's uniform so super accuracy is not needed, but it's a good way to find out really quick if you have a whiped lobe on the cam.
one other thing you can do is run the engine at idle, and take off the valve cover on one side at a time, then while the engine is running gently hold the rubber side of a hammer handle or something simmilar on each valve rocker, applying very light pressure and see if there is any changes in the noise, just put a pan under that side to catch what little oil leaks with the valve cover off, but you can have a helper start the car and preform the test within 30 secconds, just some more diagnostic tools you may try to find out if there really is a problem.
martin
one other thing you can do is run the engine at idle, and take off the valve cover on one side at a time, then while the engine is running gently hold the rubber side of a hammer handle or something simmilar on each valve rocker, applying very light pressure and see if there is any changes in the noise, just put a pan under that side to catch what little oil leaks with the valve cover off, but you can have a helper start the car and preform the test within 30 secconds, just some more diagnostic tools you may try to find out if there really is a problem.
martin
Actually he came by this morning and we isolated the problem to #3. We did so by unplugging the spark plug wires one at a time. When unplugging #3 the noise goes away. We'll tackle the problem on Saturday; he believes it might be side play rocker clearances on the shaft. Although initially they were set to .005" as per Gene Berg's instructions he says they might have shifted.
good to hear you narrowed it down to the #3 cylinder, but i doubt that it is rocker side to side play causing that noise, if you think about it, all you did by unhooking one wire at a time is stop the spark/combustion in that cylinder, but those valves are still working, opening and closing, the side to side play theory would still be there(and so would the noise), since the valves are still indeed going thru their cycle (but sticking slightly open). My guess is a sticking valve, so that when it opens it does'nt close completely, then on the compression stroke, when combustion occurs the valve is slammed shut, that's why you did'nt hear it when you unhooked the #3 cyl plug wire. The other possibilities could be a streached valve, sticking lifter/follower, broken valve spring. I'd almost bet $ on it!!! well ok i'll shut up now before i loose some $!!!! haha
good luck. keep us posted.
martin
good luck. keep us posted.
martin
Good call Martin! Did you know that what you just said regarding the fact that the valvetrain is still working (whether there's combustion or not) is what I told him at first? He told me that when combustion occurs higher stresses are occuring at the valvetrain that don't happen when there's no combustion. Anyway, I really value your insight and comments and we'll definitely check all those items you mentioned (broken valve spring or sticking valve). Thanks and keep the comments coming!
I had similar sounds when the valve seat started coming out of the head. That kept the valve from closing completely and when I checked the valve adjustment on the intake and exhaust, the intake was good and the exhaust was HUGE. Also the #3 cylinder.
Thanks for the insight Dale!
there is no more stress on a valve weather there's combustion or not, that is only IF the valve is sticking open, when the valves close on the compression stroke, the valve is forced to seat in the seat and there is no aditional stress in the valve train at all.
martin
martin
Rick, just a wild ass guess, could a windage tube have gotten bent when you took the hit? This could jam a pushrod or cause it to hang up. Again, it's just a guess.
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Actually Nolan, no. When I adjusted the valves a couple of days ago I took a peek at the tubes and the pushrods aren't touching them (when we installed the new heads and pushrod tubes we sort of opened up the ends going into the heads to prevent that). I've been using the car and it's working great otherwise. I spoke to Ralph about some of the other ideas mentioned here and he says that if a valve spring were broken or if a valve seat were loose the motor would be running really rough and it's not. We couldn't check it out this weekend but we will the next, God willing.
i think you should get a new mechanic!!!! haha, just kdding. You can absoultly have a loose seat, or broken valve spring and the engine will run fine, except for the noise in the begining, but it will get worse FAST. You for sure have a valve issue, espically if your expirement with pulling the plug wires off one at a time resulted in a reduction in the noise when the #3 cylinder wire was pulled. It could be anything, including even a bad connecting rod bearing in your case, the trick is now that you know you have a problem to find out what it is and fix it so it does'nt get worse and gernade on you.
martin
martin
I listened to the video again, not absolutely certain but thought I heard a piston slap. Martin may be right about the bearing or maybe your timing needs to be advanced slightly
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nolan,
My guess looking at the clues we allready have, that when the #3 spark plug wire was unplugged from the dist that the noise went away, if this is the case, my bet would be one of the following:
1. bad conn rod bearing (either at the wrist pin or crank)
2. loose exhaust valve seat
3. sticking valve
4. excessive piston slap
5. rocker arm play (side to side, spring/wavewasher broken)
6. broken valve spring (could be broken causing the valve to be loose/not seating fully, when combustion occurs it's forcing the valve into the seat)
From the noise to me from the video sounds like it's in the head, and i'm guessing #2 or #3 as the most probable cause of the noise. #5 would be next on my list(although not likely from your expirement findings, since the valves are still operating when the plug wire is unplugged), and then #6, and #1 and #4 would be last on my list.
either way i doubt that it will be long until something worse happens and something finally breakes.
martin
My guess looking at the clues we allready have, that when the #3 spark plug wire was unplugged from the dist that the noise went away, if this is the case, my bet would be one of the following:
1. bad conn rod bearing (either at the wrist pin or crank)
2. loose exhaust valve seat
3. sticking valve
4. excessive piston slap
5. rocker arm play (side to side, spring/wavewasher broken)
6. broken valve spring (could be broken causing the valve to be loose/not seating fully, when combustion occurs it's forcing the valve into the seat)
From the noise to me from the video sounds like it's in the head, and i'm guessing #2 or #3 as the most probable cause of the noise. #5 would be next on my list(although not likely from your expirement findings, since the valves are still operating when the plug wire is unplugged), and then #6, and #1 and #4 would be last on my list.
either way i doubt that it will be long until something worse happens and something finally breakes.
martin
Those are illuminating comments. I have more than enough deck height (copper head seals) and low compression ratio so it's definitely not piston slap. It's been static timed also so timing shouldn't be that bad (could probably be advanced a little). I don't know if it's my imagination but I've been driving it for a few days and the noise seems to subside as the car is warmed up and used for a while.
Ricardo,
You should really get that thing timed properlly, and remember depending on what distributor you have #3 spark timing on the cam in the dist is slightly retarded to reduce the famous #3 hot cylinder issue, with the #1 at tdc, the rotor (pointing to the #1 cyl) should be alligned with the notch in the distributor. Remember static timing is good to get you in the ball park to start up a car, but unless your a fortune teller you're probabally running the wrong timing, put a light on it and time it right, vw's typically like 30*deg total advance at 3000-3500rpm's fully advanced, and let initial timing at idle fall where it may unless you want to have your distributor re-curved.
When engines get hot, things expand, tollerances get tighter and noises deminish, it still does'nt solve the problem, and continuing to drive the car will only lead to more damage, and mor $$$$ to repair. If you preformed all the simple tests i suggested in this thread, i'm positive you could narrow down the problem further and repair it, otherwise your looking at being on the side of the road sooner than later with a really busted engine. Vw's in my expirence don't sing the song of death long before they tank, in a domestic big block v8, a little tick could last 100000mi, vw's 1000mi.
martin
You should really get that thing timed properlly, and remember depending on what distributor you have #3 spark timing on the cam in the dist is slightly retarded to reduce the famous #3 hot cylinder issue, with the #1 at tdc, the rotor (pointing to the #1 cyl) should be alligned with the notch in the distributor. Remember static timing is good to get you in the ball park to start up a car, but unless your a fortune teller you're probabally running the wrong timing, put a light on it and time it right, vw's typically like 30*deg total advance at 3000-3500rpm's fully advanced, and let initial timing at idle fall where it may unless you want to have your distributor re-curved.
When engines get hot, things expand, tollerances get tighter and noises deminish, it still does'nt solve the problem, and continuing to drive the car will only lead to more damage, and mor $$$$ to repair. If you preformed all the simple tests i suggested in this thread, i'm positive you could narrow down the problem further and repair it, otherwise your looking at being on the side of the road sooner than later with a really busted engine. Vw's in my expirence don't sing the song of death long before they tank, in a domestic big block v8, a little tick could last 100000mi, vw's 1000mi.
martin
WOW! It's amazing how one can glean such an extensive diagnosis from watching/listening to a low-grade video re-posted from YouTube (and the obligatory follow-up dissertation on air-cooled engineering!)
I'm no expert on air-cooled engines by ANY stretch of the imagination...but that's pretty dang good to be to able to do that! I think our friend Ricardo has been fairly diplomatic (gracious) about taking (at face value) the good-samaritan-advice being offered.
There's an interesting phenomena on this website about getting the 'last word'...with all due respect to those who offer their insight/advice on this site.
Peace - Out!
I'm no expert on air-cooled engines by ANY stretch of the imagination...but that's pretty dang good to be to able to do that! I think our friend Ricardo has been fairly diplomatic (gracious) about taking (at face value) the good-samaritan-advice being offered.
There's an interesting phenomena on this website about getting the 'last word'...with all due respect to those who offer their insight/advice on this site.
Peace - Out!
ok jim, thanks for that insightful info there, and also thankyou for putting the layman's definitions for those big words there. Point taken, i'll refrain from trying to help anyone, next time i'll just say, nice car!!!!
martin
martin
With respect to Jimbo and Rick, well the info Martin shared here was informative and enlightening to me.
I realize that bad news is a bitter pill, especially when it's your car's engine that is being critiqued in an open forum. It's hard to not take it personally.... but gee, having an opinion offered that may lead to fixing an issue before losing an engine is a good thing in the long run.
Maybe the opinion offered is wrong, maybe not. But if he is right and it is corrected and saves a lot of bucks, then it will prove to be invaluable.
I know... easier said than done as far as taking advice. It would be hard for me if my engine was the point of discussion. But, you can bet I've taken notes and hope to learn from this thread if I hear that ticking noise and my valve lash is zero. That's one of the big benefits of having these forum discussions on subjects besides nude starlet breast sizes. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
Hope you get it fixed Rick, and are out on the roads very soon with a SEG.
I realize that bad news is a bitter pill, especially when it's your car's engine that is being critiqued in an open forum. It's hard to not take it personally.... but gee, having an opinion offered that may lead to fixing an issue before losing an engine is a good thing in the long run.
Maybe the opinion offered is wrong, maybe not. But if he is right and it is corrected and saves a lot of bucks, then it will prove to be invaluable.
I know... easier said than done as far as taking advice. It would be hard for me if my engine was the point of discussion. But, you can bet I've taken notes and hope to learn from this thread if I hear that ticking noise and my valve lash is zero. That's one of the big benefits of having these forum discussions on subjects besides nude starlet breast sizes. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)
Hope you get it fixed Rick, and are out on the roads very soon with a SEG.