Need a referral - Narrowing Trailing Arms

@RacerX  Brian - just south of you in San Diego is CoolRydes Customs. The owner, Keving Zagar, is also an SOCer and a very cool dude. Give him a buzz an let him know what you need. 

http://www.coolrydescustoms.com

@coolryde

Great , Thanks for that MUSBJIM! I am a lot of things, but I am not a welder, or a good one at least.

Let me try that image again. After this, it is straight to the Newbie forum for me ...

Is there not enough room between the tires and spring plates to get wheels dished inward a bit for better clearance?

Racerx posted:

Let me try that image again. After this, it is straight to the Newbie forum for me ...

Nice coupe Brian.

Which Fuchs replica wheels are you planning to use?  CIP has 5.5x15" five bolt wheels in 3 different offsets.  The one with the largest back spacing should give the most room.  MUSBJIM has (I believe) EMPI (?) Fuchs wheels on his VS which I think he had polished or repainted to appear more authentic. Get rotors/drums drilled for 5x130 pattern - NO adapters.

CIP lists back spacing (BS) for 5.5x15 5x130mm bolt pattern 911 pattern as:

ACC-CIO-6648/9 is 5" BS (ET40)  $99/129 

C32-FU552C is 4.5" BS

C32-FU452C is 4 1/8" BS

It appears the 5" BS would give the most outer rear well clearance/narrowest track.

Here's ET to BS calculator -

http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/Offset-to-Backspace.html

Hey Wolfgang,

Thanks for the reply. I have to measure the steelies that are on the car now, but they are definitely positive offset (See pic on first post). I wasn't sure if the Ghia discs that JPS installs add any width. Really don't want to go to drum brakes if I can help it. Have read comparisons between Flat 4 wheels and Empi's seem to be the preferred brand. Absolutely going with a rotor change rather than spacers.

Brian in Murrieta

Gordon Nichols posted:

Is there not enough room between the tires and spring plates to get wheels dished inward a bit for better clearance?

Hey Gordon,

The wheels that are on there are the 4 lug standard issue, but they are positive offset already. Hub of wheel almost even with the lip. I think it is the IRS, disk brake combo that is the culprit. Sometime ago the rear appears to have been lowered, causing some camber. That is the only way those 185's could have been used, I suppose. It appears the Front beam is narrowed and I would like the rear tires tucked in a bit rather than riding out to the body.

Robert M posted:

Racerx posted:

Let me try that image again. After this, it is straight to the Newbie forum for me ...

Nice coupe Brian.

Thanks for the reply Robert. Run's great just needs paint and some refreshed trim pieces. Never thought I could afford a 356, so I cast that thought away decades ago. My family really loves this car, cracked paint and all.

@RacerX looks great!  Hoping you find much enjoyment with it. 

-Kevin 

Racerx posted:

Let me try that image again. After this, it is straight to the Newbie forum for me ...

Brian, for larger images, after you add attachments, in the box will be a check-box asking if you want the images large in the post, if you click that check-box your images will pretty much go all the way across the post/text area.

for those of us with less than stellar eyesight, this is a blessing and then, for the really blind, like me, we can left-click on the image and it will enlarge even more (usually)

...and congratulations on being the first Californian to figure out how to stay dry in a money pit...I mean...plastic car...

Will

SF-Speedster posted:

@RacerX looks great!  Hoping you find much enjoyment with it. 

-Kevin 

I Really haven't driven it all that much, but just trailering it home brought a lot of smiles from passerby's. Have to keep peeking into the garage to make sure it's all for real ...

Brian

Will Hesch posted:

Racerx posted:

Let me try that image again. After this, it is straight to the Newbie forum for me ...

Brian, for larger images, after you add attachments, in the box will be a check-box asking if you want the images large in the post, if you click that check-box your images will pretty much go all the way across the post/text area.

for those of us with less than stellar eyesight, this is a blessing and then, for the really blind, like me, we can left-click on the image and it will enlarge even more (usually)

Oh, and congratulations on your new money-pit...I mean...car

Will

Hi Will, Thanks for the photo tip. I wanted to make sure It wasn't too obnoxious in size....

Brian

Nice Car, I thought you would have uses UPSP to ship after mentioning the postage stamp  

Enjoy the car... the offset should work if the wheel is modified to have the proper size going inward.

I guess that is called Positive offset.

His small image is just fine --- just click on small image and it will fill your screen.  

I didn't realize you had disc brakes on rear - that probably ate up a good 1/2" either side.  The front never seems to be a problem so doubt you have a narrowed front beam.  I added 1/2" spacer either side of my front wheels (using Ghia disc brakes on std Ghia spindles which don't widen wheel track).

On mine in rear, I did grind the wheel opening lip some and also up in wheel well sides a bit.  I got may 1/4" more clearance by doing that plus the wheel opening looks a bit more authentic as the edge is not so wide. I'd like 1/2" though. I have the OEM 2L Fuchs which are ET40 (4.8") - planning to go to the Empi Fuchs which are ET45 (5") - so that would give me almost 1/4" more space. Price on the 2L Fuchs have gone up - long lug bolts are about $10 each used!  So selling them and getting new replica Fuchs and new brake rotor/drums should be a wash $ wise.

When John Steele builds an IRS car with rear discs, he puts a 4-1/2" rim and a 185 tire on it. You can't slide a credit-card between the sidewalls and the inner fenderwell. This was a fundamental issue with the set-up.

What the OP is attempting is the right way to do this. It'd be theoretically possible to get 5"+ wheels the right offset (Terry Nuckels did it), but you are limited to 914 wheel selection. Redishing is possible (maybe), but just doing it right to start with is a better way to go.

Stan Galat posted:

When John Steele builds an IRS car with rear discs, he puts a 4-1/2" rim and a 185 tire on it. You can't slide a credit-card between the sidewalls and the inner fenderwell. This was a fundamental issue with the set-up.

What the OP is attempting is the right way to do this. It'd be theoretically possible to get 5"+ wheels the right offset (Terry Nuckels did it), but you are limited to 914 wheel selection. Redishing is possible (maybe), but just doing it right to start with is a better way to go.

Stan,

I am going to put on 5x130 rotors front and back so I can go with the 5 spoked Fuchs. You are right about the rear clearance. I believe if I get the wheel with the widest back space, the face of the wheel is still going to be too close for comfort. Mango Smoothie put some nice sized tires up in his wheelwells after narrowing his trailing arms. That is where I want to be!

Brian

Brian,

You're on the right track. You need to find somebody to do it. I'd go to one of the SoCal VW shops (SoCal, VW Paradise, etc.) and ask who might be able to do the work. Alternately, you could call or email Pat Downs or even Carey Hines looking for recommendations.

You should be able to get this done.

Stan Galat posted:

Brian,

You're on the right track. You need to find somebody to do it. I'd go to one of the SoCal VW shops (SoCal, VW Paradise, etc.) and ask who might be able to do the work. Alternately, you could call or email Pat Downs or even Carey Hines looking for recommendations.

You should be able to get this done.

I am on it!

Thanks Stan

Please document the work so others can benefit from it.  If you can pick up Porsche 944 rear trailing arms with their disk brakes you'd really have a slick solution (and the rotors would be the right 5 bolt pattern).  Doing it does add to track so it would have to be done along with other work.  Some of the 944's (Turbo and S ???) used lighter weight alloy trailing arms.

Please document the work so others can benefit from it.  If you can pick up Porsche 944 rear trailing arms with their disk brakes you'd really have a slick solution (and the rotors would be the right 5 bolt pattern).  Doing it does add to track so it would have to be done along with other work.  Some of the 944's (Turbo and S ???) used lighter weight alloy trailing arms. 944  vs stock VW:

It is getting harder and harder to get those parts let alone replacement parts.  Some of the new disc brake kits can be drilled for 5x130 for use with P wheels, or fuch copies.  just saying

IaM-Ray posted:

It is getting harder and harder to get those parts let alone replacement parts.  Some of the new disc brake kits can be drilled for 5x130 for use with P wheels, or fuch copies.  just saying

Hi Ray,

I am finding new Rotors that are already drilled for Porsche at Cip1 , SoCal imports and other suppliers. These fit my 74 Bug Ball joint front and IRS rear and also Ghia, which is what JPS uses. Some are even drilled for Porsche and Chevy pattern (Although I don't know why a Chevy pattern is desirable).  

Brian

Brian

" I don't know why a Chevy pattern is desirable" .    more wheel choices I would think are out there... 

You still have the issue of offset unless you want to do a lot of work. 

On my first IM.. I had disks all around and the rear wheels were just made to fit which was easier for IM to do then retool the whole rear suspension. .. just an option I think you should look at before modifying everything.  Wheels were 4 bolt too but if you want togoto P wheels 5 bolt 5x130 then you need to do the brake mods at least. 

IaM-Ray posted:

Brian

" I don't know why a Chevy pattern is desirable" .    more wheel choices I would think are out there... 

You still have the issue of offset unless you want to do a lot of work. 

On my first IM.. I had disks all around and the rear wheels were just made to fit which was easier for IM to do then retool the whole rear suspension. .. just an option I think you should look at before modifying everything.  Wheels were 4 bolt too but if you want togoto P wheels 5 bolt 5x130 then you need to do the brake mods at least. 

Yah, At the minimum I will need to change out all the Rotors to the new 5x130 pattern. I guess some of it is appearance too. The front wheels are going to be a bit tucked in, which I like. I don't think it would look right with the wheels riding at the edge of the body. It is one of those things that is going to take the extra effort so it will have "The look" I am after.

Brian

I've attached a table I stole from ALB giving all of the Porsche (Fuchs) wheel dimensions, just so you'll know what's out there.  Beware that on my laptop, clicking on it sends a copy to your "downloads" folder.  Go there and double-click the file and it opens right up.

BTW:  the 1969 VW Beetle and BOTH the Porsche 924/944 all share the same rear diagonal arms.  How much wheel track width they contribute depends on where the diagonal arm mounts are placed with respect to the centerline of the pan.

Gordon Nichols posted:

I've attached a table I stole from ALB giving all of the Porsche (Fuchs) wheel dimensions, just so you'll know what's out there.  Beware that on my laptop, clicking on it sends a copy to your "downloads" folder.  Go there and double-click the file and it opens right up.

BTW:  the 1969 VW Beetle and BOTH the Porsche 924/944 all share the same rear diagonal arms.  How much wheel track width they contribute depends on where the diagonal arm mounts are placed with respect to the centerline of the pan.

 

Great reference material. Thanks Gordon (ALB too!)

Brian

Contact Anthony. I don’t know where his shop is out there but he is very knowledgeable and a great guy.  Someone on here will know where he is.  He can either do the work or steer you in the right direction.  Kevin is good also at Mendeola.

Anthony's shop is in Auburn, NorCal. He is a fountain of information and a purveyor of unobtainable parts worldwide, not to mention he's a helluva mechanic.

Brian, I have squished 5-1/2" wheels under my rear fenders while sporting rear discs and IRS. It involved shaving the rotors and grinding the inner fenders. It gave me 1/4" clearance and no hope of anything larger than a 185 tire.

Narrow your trailing arms. Shorten your axles. Document it along with what it costs. A lot of us want to do it. Performance tires are drying up in the 185 range...

Oh heck, just pie cut and widen the body!

@RacerX Brian, for visual reference here are some pics of my Empi wheels, tires & stance. Click on pics to enlarge.

Here is how the Empi wheels came from the vendor (15x5.5, 4 inch backspace, with 5x130 Porsche pattern).

I had them stripped, polished & repainted to the proper Porsche scheme.

My VS is swing axel, rear lowered via adjustable spring plates. Front lowered via 2" drop spindle and single adjust-a-drop front torsion. Spindle added 3/4" track width & I added additional 1/2" wheel spacers to push wheels (with 4" back spacing) to fill the wheel well. Tires are 185x60. While I am more of a cruiser than a speed demon, I wanted an aggressive stance. I wouldn't recommend the drop spindles and wheel spacers if you do a lot of spirited driving on winding roads (unless you correct for proper steering geometry).

Also, here is a pic of fellow SOCer, Eddy Karyadi's coupe with polished Fuchs.

Hope you find this info useful. 

I went through this same thing and still going through it as I still want rear disks. I'm running original 15" Fuchs on 185x60 tires and the left rear rubs (CMC) problem.

The problem as everyone has commented is the increase in track when adding disks and Porsche 944 trailing arms add more track so you compound the problem.

I've attached the 944 conversion layout I found but would still have to modify the  trailing arms for track and the second attachment is of a Samba add for a guy who modifies the rear trailing arms like Paul (Mango Smoothie ) did.

This item of course is part of my want list which all these cars come with and it moved up a bit after our trip to the Smokies where just the front disks didn't cut it for me.

As a side note, I also had to cut the rear stub axle snout to fit my center caps, so many variables when you go off of the reservation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9VkS3SWuH4

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/cl...etail.php?id=1725100

Bill Prout posted:

Oh heck, just pie cut and widen the body!

Bill and I must have had the same Kona coffee today.  You said a repaint was on your list (although the current patina add to an old authentic real look), so take a jig saw (or Harbor Freight air cut off tool) and cut from lower rear apron up to within a foot or so of the back of the door- about 10-12'' up above wheel opening.  Then open slice and fill with fiberglass matt/cloth and finish.  Wheels clear and you have advantage of the wide track for handling.  If you are repainting it has to be a cheaper solution.  There were photo here of someone doing it.

https://www.speedsterowners.co...y=361303058599024656

Photo is an OEM metal car - fiberglass would be easier for sure.

WOLFGANG posted:

Bill Prout posted:

Oh heck, just pie cut and widen the body!

Bill and I must have had the same Kona coffee today.  You said a repaint was on your list (although the current patine add to an old authentic real look), so take a jig saw and cut from lower rear apron up to within a foot or so of the back of the door- about 10-12'' up above wheel opening.  Then open slice and fill with fiberglass matt/cloth and finish.  Wheels clear and you have advantage of the wide track for handling.  If you are repainting it has to be a cheaper solution.  There were photo here of someone doing it.

https://www.speedsterowners.co...y=361303058599024656

Photo is an OEM metal car - fiberglass would be easier for sure.

Yikes ...If my wife saw me jigsaw the car already, the coupe (Project Siegfried....Can't think of a good name yet) would not be the only thing taking up space in my garage! I am glad you brought this up though. I read about this car the other day by coincidence and it never dawned on me to consider that modification. It would be tricky at the transition point behind the door. I can look at some more pics of the steel cars lines. Thanks for that!

Brian

MusbJim posted:

@RacerX Brian, for visual reference here are some pics of my Empi wheels, tires & stance. Click on pics to enlarge.

Here is how the Empi wheels came from the vendor (15x5.5, 4 inch backspace, with 5x130 Porsche pattern).

I had them stripped, polished & repainted to the proper Porsche scheme.

My VS is swing axel, rear lowered via adjustable spring plates. Front lowered via 2" drop spindle and single adjust-a-drop front torsion. Spindle added 3/4" track width & I added additional 1/2" wheel spacers to push wheels (with 4" back spacing) to fill the wheel well. Tires are 185x60. While I am more of a cruiser than a speed demon, I wanted an aggressive stance. I wouldn't recommend the drop spindles and wheel spacers if you do a lot of spirited driving on winding roads (unless you correct for proper steering geometry).

Also, here is a pic of fellow SOCer, Eddy Karyadi's coupe with polished Fuchs.

Hope you find this info useful. 

Lots of good info MBJ. I was going to PM you today to ask these very questions. I might do the same for Eddie and find out how he dealt with the clearance. It looks pretty tight back there. I believe the back of my coupe rides a little bit lower. On another note, did you ever take a look at the chromed Empi's? Just wondering how durable the finish is.

Bill Prout posted:

Oh heck, just pie cut and widen the body!

Planning a body chopping party. Bring your own sawzall!

Brian

Project Hindenberg or Bismark!  No problem, will send Cory Drake by with his Saw-z-all!

RacerX posted:

MusbJim posted:

@RacerX Brian, for visual reference here are some pics of my Empi wheels, tires & stance. Click on pics to enlarge.

Here is how the Empi wheels came from the vendor (15x5.5, 4 inch backspace, with 5x130 Porsche pattern).

I had them stripped, polished & repainted to the proper Porsche scheme.

My VS is swing axel, rear lowered via adjustable spring plates. Front lowered via 2" drop spindle and single adjust-a-drop front torsion. Spindle added 3/4" track width & I added additional 1/2" wheel spacers to push wheels (with 4" back spacing) to fill the wheel well. Tires are 185x60. While I am more of a cruiser than a speed demon, I wanted an aggressive stance. I wouldn't recommend the drop spindles and wheel spacers if you do a lot of spirited driving on winding roads (unless you correct for proper steering geometry).

Also, here is a pic of fellow SOCer, Eddy Karyadi's coupe with polished Fuchs.

Hope you find this info useful. 

Lots of good info MBJ. I was going to PM you today to ask these very questions. I might do the same for Eddie and find out how he dealt with the clearance. It looks pretty tight back there. I believe the back of my coupe rides a little bit lower. On another note, did you ever take a look at the chromed Empi's? Just wondering how durable the finish is.

Great looking Speedster MBJ. It looks plenty aggressive.