Need advice

Ha! That could be the best comment of the thread, Mitch. Coffee on the keyboard funny. Thanks!

 

... but it does kind've make my point. There are a LOT of shops out there with mouth-breathing, booger-eating high-school drop-outs in the back who have never seen a carburetor or distributor passing themselves off as the "foreign-car experts". In large parts of this country, there hasn't been a Type 1 rolling on the rack in 35 years. These are old cars. We don't need shops so much as curators. Like it or not, sometimes "you" and your home shop is all you've got. Having some of what you need is a good idea.

and THAT is why it becomes important to get involved in local clubs.  All we can offer here is advice - some of it is even good and/or useable - but that's about it.  Folks from a local club can offer help, yes, but also tools, maybe a lift, and usually experience, hopefully on YOUR car's make if you choose the right bunch of folks.  Sounds like that's what Lane's doing.......

That certainly what I've tried to do.  These are some of my local car buddies: https://www.facebook.com/groups/309960679037275/

 

I've even got them convinced that I know what I'm doing as I was somewhat helpful in getting the race car back on the road.

Sorry, couldn't let it go.

 

Man did not evolve from modern apes. Man and modern apes share a common ancestor, which is long extinct. (Modern primates include: bonobos, chimpanzees, gorillas, baboons, macaques, lemurs, gibbons, and humans. None of these is a descendant of any other.) Evolution is not a straight line, where entire populations change into new species all at the same time. Nor is evolution a process in which species universally progress up a ladder to become "better" or more complex. Often times, a small group breaks away from a population and begins to evolve independently of the source group. The source group does not need to go extinct, and is generally unaffected by the development of the smaller group. This is called "allopatric speciation," and it is just one of many ways that new species can evolve. There is nothing in evolutionary theory which states a source population must go extinct in order for new species to evolve.

Thanks for clearing that up!

And it appears that election to public office initiates a swifter than normal process of de-evolution.

 

Just picked up compression and leak-down testers.  Hopefully I can use them this weekend.

Just thought I'd toss that fat pitch over the plate for someone to hit it out of the park! 

 

Hope you can get your car sorted out, Lane! Eye on the prize my friend! 

 

"allopatric speciation" I guess me an a few of the other Subaru and Audi H2O guys are part of this group.  We have evolved away from the tinkering with old engine technology because there are other options.  For me it's the lack of mechanical knowledge and for others it's just because they find other hobbies to fill the time.  It would be cool to see the future and how the hobby evolves in 20/30 years.

Got home and was surprised to find that he new gaskets from CB had arrived.  I thought "What the heck, I'll be removing the carb and manifold anyway if I find a deeper problem," so I whipped them off (I'm getting pretty good at it) only to discover that the existing gasket, although broken outside of one of the studs, was otherwise ok.  It's unlikely that is the problem.  I seem to be chasing a series of issues here.

 

Anyway, I have a compression tester and a leak-down tester (borrowed) that I hope to use this weekend.  I have this sick feeling I'll be pulling one of the heads.  Please tell me that can be done in the car.  I simply don't have room or a motorcycle jack or whatever to pull the engine here.

Well, just hang around for twenty to thirty years, and you'll find out.  You can do it. 

 

Actually, I've wondered about that a lot myself recently.  Will people still be buying cars with ninety year old technology then?

 

It IS a little scary to think that in thirty years - when everyone's driving electric cars made in Indonesia - there will be a pathetic bunch of grizzled old curmudgeons whining about how great things were back in the good old days, and struggling to keep running their water-cooled, computer-chipped, fuel injected, gas-engined fiberglass replicas of Toyota Corollas.

 

"Nah, it's not like back in 2015 when any mechanic could plug in and read a fault code and high-quality Chinese parts were still cheap and plentiful."

 

 

Aaah...Thanks for that clarification, justinh.

 

That certainly explains the several Neanderthals I've encountered.

Well, some laws consider "classic" cars anything over 25 years old. So if you've got an '89 Corolla, the young'ins already think you're a grizzled old curmudgeon. Actually, for a lot of us, they think that regardless of what cars we have.

Lane, I don't know if it's the same but one of my heads was pulled without dropping the engine 

to repair it with a Timecert.

I'm still hoping that I'm wrong and that it's something comparatively superficial.  I guess I'll find out in the next couple of days.

It's certainly worth a try! I believe you'll have to remove the shroud and cylinder covers; it can be done in a beetle (the engine lid has to be removed to lift the shroud off). Don't forget about the thermostat rod (if it's installed). I don't think you'll be able to get the shroud over the oil cooler, but if everything's loosened up you may be able to hold the cylinder cover up enough to get at the offending head. Bummer to hear it's still not fixed; every post I keep hoping you've solved the problem. Good luck! Al

If you end up needing to pull a head, best to not do half the job. Do drop the motor out, pull both... heads, being careful not to pull a cylinder barrel loose from the case ( usually sealed with high temp RTV or similar ) Have the heads checked and valves dressed...while that is being done you can clean and reseal the motor ( a complete kit is available)

I was afraid of that.  I have neither the means nor the inclination to do that here, so that means a flatbed ride.  Keep your fingers crossed folks.  I hope it isn't necessary.

"I believe you'll have to remove the shroud and cylinder covers; it can be done in a beetle (the engine lid has to be removed to lift the shroud off). Don't forget about the thermostat rod (if it's installed). I don't think you'll be able to get the shroud over the oil cooler, but if everything's loosened up you may be able to hold the cylinder cover up enough to get at the offending head."

 

Time to do all that (if you've done it before):  About 2 - 2.5 hours.

 

Time to drop the engine from a Speedster (if you've done it before):  About 1.5 hours

 

Do your tests.  Read about how to do both compression and leak-down correctly.  Do them enough to be conclusive about the fault mechanism.  Have that verified by someone mechanical that you can trust, THEN go ahead.  There is far too much opportunity here for a red herring moving you off in another, possibly false, direction and some of those potential directions can be very costly.

 

It's far easier and cheaper to test, get a real fault condition and go after THAT than shotgun it (in this instance).

 

Good luck testing.  gn

Ditto Gordon......

My s**tty luck still holds.  Neither borrowed compression tester will work.  One has a screw-in adapter but it's too large for my spark plug holes (same with the leak-down tester).  The other is one of the those that you hold in place, which I don't have much faith in.  If I'm wrong there, please let me know.  Otherwise I'll go buy one tomorrow.

 

Anyway, given my lack of space/tools/skill/patience tomorrow is probably the last day I'll attempt to fix it myself.  If I cannot find something relatively superficial (i.e., not requiring an engine tear-down) I will have to flatbed it somewhere (Charleston Harbor perhaps).  I have too much else I really need to be doing to spend another weekend (this is #5 or #6) on it.

UPDATE: Neither borrowed compression tester would work so I went and bought one.  I have a nice even 110 all around.  I don't know if that is low or not, but at least it's even.  I put everything back together including a new manifold-to-head gasket and now the chuffing is gone.  It started quickly and idled well.  I revved it to 2000 RPM for about 30 seconds and it seemed smooth so I went in to get my wallet and cellphone (never leave home in a Speedster without it) and went to take a test drive.  Immediately off idle under load I could tell the problem was still there.  I drove a few blocks with it running roughly to warm it up and could see that there was little if any improvement although it seems to idle just fine.  I am now at a complete loss.

 

Any ideas before I call the tow truck?

 

My only thought is that it's Sunday - the day when those soft-spoken folks with white shirts, black ties, and Bibles often come to call in neighborhoods all across this wonderful land of ours.

 

I'm seeing a scene where the tow truck has disappeared down your street carrying its precious cargo just as you're approached and asked if you've found Jesus, my friend.

 

Moments like this require all the inner strength and calm resolve you can muster. It will be difficult, but just do it. Politely thank them, accept their literature, and go back inside.

 

None of us wants to wake up tomorrow to this disturbing headline:

 

"South Carolina Couple Bludgeoned To Death With Compression Tester"

 

 

 

If you've got 110 lbs. all around then that part is great. I would think it's either ignition or fuel related, so start at the basics and don't assume anything. Have you (since you put it back together) checked around the carbs and manifolds with WD40? Are all plugs gapped properly and firing? Checked the timing and that the plugs are firing? Is there anyone close who can lend you a distributor to be sure yours is operating correctly? When was the last time you changed the fuel filter and is it near the tank or do you have one close to the engine compartment (you should have one just outside the engine compartment)? Is the problem confined to one side/cylinder or random? Have you gone through the carbs piece by piece- I remember just recently someone finding a loose brass seat on an idle mixture adjusting screw. After cleaning everything (again, I know!) make sure nothing's loose.

 

Have your valve adjustments been consistent, or have 2 (or more) adjusters had significant changes the last couple of adjustments? I know this is out there, but if this is the case a lobe or 2 of the cam may be going flat. If suspected, cut apart the oil filter to look for particles.

 

I know you've gone over a lot of this stuff more than once, but I can't help but think you're missing something and the only way to catch it is to start at the beginning and go through it step by step. Any one live near you, Lane? Frustration often leads to mistakes, and sometimes another person (who's not involved) can see what your emotions are making you miss. I'm sorry I don't have more. Al

 

Ok, Mitch, I laughed out loud!  And Lane, if we do hear about you in the news tonight/tomorrow, we all know there were extenuating circumstances; just keep yelling " It's not my fault!".

"  I put everything back together including a new manifold-to-head gasket and now the chuffing is gone.  It started quickly and idled well.  I revved it to 2000 RPM for about 30 seconds and it seemed smooth"

 

That tells me that the compression is OK, the valves are OK and there are no flat spots in the cam, otherwise it would be running funny all the time.

 

What I'm seeing here is one of three things.  Either it is; 1. Time related ( that 30-second thing has popped up on here before) or it is 2. Vacuum related since it started right after Lane held it at 2K rpm for 30 seconds or so, then let it snap shut causing the manifold vacuum to peak, or it is 3. fuel delivery related to draining the line after a clogged filter and starving the carb(s).

 

OK, so Lane:  when you removed the last head-to-manifold gasket before installing the present ones, was the old one torn in the middle between ports or intact?   

 

"...so I went ...to take a test drive.  Immediately off idle under load I could tell the problem was still there.  I drove a few blocks with it running roughly to warm it up and could see that there was little if any improvement although it seems to idle just fine."

 

If it's idling fine, then the idle jets are not clogged.  If they were, it would be stumbling badly at idle.  It still sounds like fuel related, and a clogged fuel filter or insufficient flow rate come to mind, but that should effect all cylinders with random stumbling (or just plain die), unless......  

 

If your fuel line goes first to one carb and has a "Y" Banjo fitting at that carb with another line running to the other carb, I would check the banjo fitting at that first carb - the fittings often have a small filter inside which might be full of crud or there is a blockage in the passage to the bowl.  I remember that you supposedly changed fuel filters a while back - did you blow out the line between the tank/pump and filter, and again between the filter and first carb or "T"?  If the carbs have banjo fittings and filters, are they clear?

 

I would be curious for you to try this:  Let it cold soak - like until tomorrow evening - then, go out and start it and Immediately head out to see if it runs OK for the first 30+ seconds and THEN screws up or if it stumbles right away.  Shift normally and bring it up to 3500 between shifts, if you can.  That might tell us something about possible fuel starvation.  Before you shut it down back at the house, keep it running but blip it from idle to 3-3.5K a few times, hard - Wham!  Wham!  Wham! then see how it idles.  It should still idle OK, and it should still rev quickly but I suspect that after the first open throttle hit it will stumble on the subsequent ones.

 

And lastly, did you already swap out the coil?  

 

Honestly, though.......You've been through a lot and, if I were you I would at this point give it to someone who troubleshoots this stuff for a living and let them fix it.  As I stated at the beginning of this post, it's not the heads, the cam or something else expensive, but all of this shot-gunning has gotten expensive already so it's time to let someone end it.

Lane, check to make sure your firing order is correct.Ask me how I know ?

Firing order is correct. All electrical parts in the ignition have been replaced except the ignitor module itself.  Plugs gapped and all are firing.  I have a simple T connection to the fuel line, after which it travels to each carb separately.  Both carbs have been apart multiple times and all accessible passages blown out with compressed air.  Fuel screens in carbs cleaned.  New idle jets installed.  Both fuel filters (metal type) replaced prior to Carlisle.  New gas in the tank.

 

I may try Gordon's cold-soak suggestion as there does still seem to be a time component.  Perhaps that'll give us a new data point.  Otherwise I'm going to have to take a 1/2 day off work and get it transported somewhere.

Lane,    Are you running the mechanical fuel pump???    As I believe I said earlier, it sounds like a fuel volume delivery problem....   You might try an electric pump (regulated) as a test.....

Sounds like a vacuum leak since you have done good sorting out the other possibilities. Each of the following tests have their pros and cons.

 

(Borrowed from candymustang66 on The Samba)

There are only x numbers of ways to find vacuum leaks

1: I use a vacuum Gage,  15-19inchs at idle and NEVER BOUNCING, !!!!!  if bouncing , you have valve issues. big time...
2: hose to ear trick. hisssssssss (get a 12-18 hose and place one end at your ear, scan the other end anywhere air could be sucked in around the carb, manifold, heat risers)
3: liquid fuel test, boom, I'm on fire. (does work very well if it don't ignite) carb cleaner works , WD40 don't , they removed the Propane in 2004
4: propane trick is much safer ( a Bunsun or map gas bottle and nozzle with the nozzle off and hose added.  OTC sells them by thousands. make one. using an old propane torch.
5: water trick,  safe but near useless (but can find tiny leaks)
6: smoke machine.  (balls to the wall , dead perfect tests.  gets the leak EVERY TIME  ! YOUTUBE IT> !
7: the electronic ultrasound hiss finder... (takes skill and patience to listen to each spot)
8: inspections (take it down and look)
9: ugh frak it, put in all new seals and do a riser leak test to be damn sure the riser did not breach the induction !!!

Leon - I am running an electric fuel pump.  It seems to be able to handle higher RPMs ok, but I wouldn't rule anything out at this point.

 

Canuck - I will probably try the carb cleaner test.  I also will check timing to verify that it is correct.  BTW - No heat riser(s) on this car.  Where would I connect a vacuum gauge on Weber IDFs?

 

Anybody see anything significant in the fact that everything appears ok until I first apply a load to the engine as in backing out of the garage?  May just be a coincidence.

I"m not sure if this has been covered but I had a similar problem on a customers car.  It dealt with the point eliminator in the base of the distributor.   When I removed the module, there was carbon built up under the module this not allowing a proper ground through the module.   Some 0000 steel wool and some 1200 grip sand paper cleaned up everything and when reinstalled (loctite on the screw) it ran perfectly.    By the way it's very difficult to do a long distance diagnosis.

"By the way it's very difficult to do a long distance diagnosis."

 

Hah!!  I'm finding it very difficult to do a short distance diagnosis.

Lane, another Detroit based Beck was recently diagnosed with fuel pressure too high.  I now suspect that carb boil over issues might be caused by the same thing.  Is it possible that yours is you low?  Have you checked it?

Lane!!!

 

Larry brings up an awfully good point, and one that made me think of another:  Low points dwell will cause the misfire-under-applied-power that you're seeing under certain circumstances because the coil doesn't see adequate charge time between fires to optimize the spark.  This gets worse when ignition timing is involved.  Yes, there is a designed-in dwell period for the Pertronics module, and it IS adjustable - read on:

 

First, do what Larry suggests;  Remove the Pertronics module, clean the underside and also the mating surfaces of the attachment plate of the distributor to make sure everything is clean and making electrical contact.  It's been in there a while and cold be crudded up a bit by now.

 

Then, when you put everything back together, check the gap of the Pertronics Hall Effect sensor to the distributor cam lobes.  That gap IS adjustable.  It should fall somewhere between .030" and .040", favoring the .040" end.  This should give you somewhere near 50 degrees of dwell, the spec for your engine.  THIS IS IMPORTANT!

 

WHEN YOU CHECK THIS GAP, DO NOT USE A METAL FEELER GAUGE - USE THE PLASTIC ONE THAT CAME WITH THE PERTRONICS MODULE!  A metal feeler gauge will screw up the Hall effect sensor - use only plastic or fiber (like a matchbook cover or something).

 

If you have a dwell meter, you can check the dwell that way, too (and I would be interested in what it is.)  Just connect it at the disti as one normally would and it should show something around 50 degrees.  This figure will not vary with engine RPM so whatever it idles at is fine.

 

Check the Disti module before you take the car out this evening.  I've been suspect of that module for some time but am aware of the cost to try a new one, but doing what Larry and I suggest should at least give what you have an optimal chance to work right.  

 

Of course, al el Cheapo way to test the Pertronics is to remove it and re-install a set of points and see how it runs.......  Jus' saying'.....

 

Larry:  Idle fine and stumbling/missfire under light to moderate load sound like dwell too low to YOU?

Hmmm...  I am running an entire Pertronix (Flamethrower II Billet) distributor rather than a module in a Bosch 009, so a conversion back to points is not in the cards.  I will remove the module and check for corrosion.  Any plastic gap gauge that may have come with the distributor has long since disappeared.  Where could I find one?  I used to have a dwell meter, but I can't remember seeing it in several years.  Gotta look for it.

Lane, Lane,...Take a break

Relax with some Captain Morgan Spiced Rum on ice...

Forget searching for the dwell meter and instead and pull out the Ouija Board.

Lane, you could easily make a plastic feeler gauge out of any piece of plastic laying around the house. A sanded down popsicle stick might work too. I do like the idea of pulling your existing electronic dizzy and trying an old points type just to see.

 

Anyone on the list have a points distributor and coil you could Fedex to Lane for a try ? I checked my stash for one and nothing left here. Somebody's got to have a spare....

Lane:   It's still adjustable.  Slap a dwell meter on it and tell us what it says.

 

In the meantime (in between time),

 http://www.ratwell.com/mirror/...w-p-c.com/buggy8.htm

It's not going to hurt the Hall sensor, but a ferrous feeler gauge will be attracted to the sensor's magnet and that drag can make it feel like the gap is too tight even when it's not.

 

A credit card is 0.030 inches thick if you'd like to use that.

Thanks Justin.  That might work.

 

I am following Carl's advice and taking a break from it tonight.  Maybe I'll feel motivated tomorrow.  For tonight a glass of wine and some hummus will work just fine.