Need engine help...

Ok...not for a Speedster project but I really appreciate all the knowledge here.

This is what I am working on:
1967 H block single port motor. The issue I am having is that the 1&2 side is not firing. I can get the engine running but not well and after a few minutes the left side (3 & 4) exhaust pipes are very warm while the 1 & 2 are cold.

Here is what I have done:
1. New carb (old carb had a wallowed out idle control solenoid and therefore a big vacuum leak).
2. New SVDA dizzy. #1 cylinder is brought up to TDC (verfified by feeling the pressure building through my compression tester's hose and having the stock timing mark line up AND verifying that both valves are closed). Lined up rotor with #1 spark plug wire. All new internals in dizzy.
3. Two sets of new plug wires tried.
4. Different (and new) plugs tried on 1/2 side.
5. New coil
6. Compression 140-150 lbs in 1 & 2
7. Tried swapping 1&2 plug wires - no difference


Any ideas?

so, it's not sparking on #1 and #2, but is on #3 and #4?

The firing order is 1-4-3-2, so unless there is some sort of problem with your rotor or cap, i'd be willing to guess it's sparking on all 4.

do you know how to test for spark?

pull out #2 (closer than #1), plug it in to the wire, hold it with insulated clamps (leather gloves too). make sure you are not touching the metal directly with any part of your body. hold the plug on a clean, solid ground. fire it over. you should see a clean white / blue-ish spark.

if not, confirm with #4 to make sure you are doing it right.

then start at the basics. double , triple check distributor position. i had a car running with the distributor 180 degrees out. it's a hard start, but will run.

do you pull the valve covers off to confirm TDC? you did say you were sure the valves were closed, but i just wanted to confirm.

start there. post back and i/we'll help with the next step.

(BTW - wicked car!)

That was my first thought; nice looking car!!!

To confirm #1 TDC I installed my compression tester hose (gauge off)and rotated the engine until I felt the air coming out of the hose. I removed the valve cover and confirmed that both valves were closed. I also noted that the hash mark on the stock pully was at the case half.

This is the third dizzy (2 new caps/rotors and one old cap/rotor when I threw in an old dizzy I had) so all internals are brand new. Second set of plug wires.

The dizzt drive is not in the stock location according to my book (its at about 11:00 versus 12:00) but I have aligned the rotor so it is pointing to a wire on the cap and this is goes to my #1 cylinder. My wires then go to the correct firing order (checked about 100 times!). I am getting sick of hearing myself talk out loud as I run the firing sequence in my brain.

On the first set I pulled the 1 & 2 plug wire while the engine was running and they shot a nice arching spart to the engine tin. I have not pulled a wire from the new set though.


Thanks for the comments on the car...its come a long way from where it was....

Out of curiosity,.... Have you tried swapping the #1and #2 wires at the distributor??? I miss wired mine recently.... DUH!

Yup...did that last night with the new set of wires.

It made no difference. 1&2 cylinders (well the exhaust pipe) cool to the tough after running several minutes.

Fuel feed problem? You got spark. try swapping fuel lines (easier than swapping carbs)and see if problem moves.

Brand new tank, brand new hard fuel line, brand new fuel pump, brand new rubber lines, brand new carb (single carb, single port).

Someone suggested that maybe debris inside the intake? It was an old shed stored intake that I cleaned (exterior) but never checked inside the actual runner.

if its a new tank they have a cosmolene coating on inside and it needs to be removed or it causes havoc with the fuel, filters and jets.

Custom aluminum fuel cell. Clean as a whistle. Left side is firing just fine. Went from old, but rebuilt carb, to a new car and the issue is unchanged.

Keep them coming guys! I am hoping to not have to tear it apart tonight.

i'm still not convinced your firing in those #1&2 cylinders. even at 180 degrees out, it looks like both valves are closed. not doubting your ability, just the method. :)

do this to ensure you are at TDC:
http://www.glenn-ring.com/tech/valve_adjustment.htm


have you tried pouring a little gas in the carb? a little = shot glass full

when it's running, do you smell gas? or is the exhaust dark and sootie?

Trust me...at this point I am far from being insulted! I just can't figure it out.

Tonight I will bring it up to TDC...or at least where I think TDC is. I will then rotate the motor 180 degrees and pop my dizzy out and rotate it so the rotor is pointing to #1. I will fire it up to see how it runs.....Actually, don't I have to rotate it 360 degrees?

Why the shot glass? I know it is getting fuel. I can get it running and reving up. It will even idle poorly.

The exhaust is a merged single tip. Its hard to tell if its black or not. The plugs come out looking pristine.

I did note that when I first tried getting it running (pre new dizzy and new carb) for several hours I can back the next day and say a blackish stain under the car. I looked under and saw some light weight blackish fluid coming from the slip joint on the exhaust (on the 1/2 side). It smelled like fuel.

It really seems like that side is not firing...but it hasto be with all the new stuff. So logically that leads me to think its not firing at the right time....right?

Have you tried spraying some carb cleaner spray down at the base of the intake where is meets the head on the side that is not firing? My guess is that you have a large air leak there.

With the engine running, spray a little carb spray at the area and if the engine rpms jump up, you've got a big leak.

My .o2 cents

"The plugs come out looking pristine."

do they smell like gas? (or even more obvious - are they wet?)

plugs that have fired are not pristine.



my money is on the timing right now.

you need to physically see that the engine is at TDC (and confirm on the opposing valves).

start with the basics and move up.

the gas in the shot glass was to get an idea how much gas you'd need to wake it up (more of less). too much and you'd flood it.

what is your timezone? i'm on the west-coast. i'd be happy to have you on a cordless or cell and walk through this with you. best time for me is 8 to 10pm PST. if that works for you - email me.

Thanks for the offer on the call...unfortunately my shop doesn't have a phone in it and its too far away from the house to get a signal. And no...I live in the boonies and have no cell service (I know...hard to believe for some people but darn I like it!).

I also need to make it clear that this motor is cobbled together from a bunch of parts. It was an intact longblock that I got with a project. It has never run since it was in my possession. I did take the heads off, cleaned and inspected them, inspected the barrels and replaced all the seals. The motor looks like it was recently rebuilt. It has great oil pressure and the compression is very good (at least in 1 & 2 ...I have not tested 3 or 4).

So the motor had no carb, no dizzy, no intake, no exhaust...nothing.

If I rotate it to what I feel is TDC the rotor will be pointing to #1 because thats where I put it. But it doesn't mean its right. The firing order is absolutely correct on the cap & wires.

When I remove the plugs they are moist. They are not tan, they are not black with soot. The insulator is still white. They are not even warm.

Did anyone mention to look at the rotor to see that it's pointed at the #1 wire when you think it's at TDC? I didn't notice that.

Don't pull the distributor until you iron this out (and won't need to when it's ironed out).

The valves close at two places in each rotation. It sounds to me like you're 180 out, but hands on is the only way I'd be sure.

So turn the engine to the TDC mark and pop the cap off to see that the rotor is pointing to your #1 wire WHEREVER IT IS (some people move wires to make some things simpler for them, like timing with a vacuum can distributor). Also, original VW distributors had a notch in the body of the distributor to indicate #1 but anymore you can't rely on it being there. Better to use the location of the wire (which will usually coincide with the notch if you have one, but not always - people do funny things over the years)

If the rotor IS pointing at the wire that goes to #1 and the mark is at TDC, then verify the firing order on the cap to make sure that no wires are incorrectly installed.

BTW, I wouldn't do that spark test with the sparkplug out and grounded. There'd be nothing to keep the other cylinders from firing. Just pull the wire itself and hold it's contact about 1/8 - 1/4" from a good ground (not at battery, though that shouldn't be possible) you might need to look close to see the spark, it'll be more yellowish than bright blue with these cars - they don't usually have HE ignition systems.

Another BTW - the link posted by Mango as much as describes what 180 out means. Notice that during the valve adjust procedure described cyl #1 is at TDC when the process begins, and cyl. #4 is at the same TSDC mark when the process ends. The crank rotates twice, the rotor/cam rotates once.

One more BTW - you didn't just finish adjusting the valves? Hope not because doing it wrong could also bring about your problem.

Yeah, they're wet with gas. So you have fuel and compression, all you need is spark at the right time.

OK, so you might have just put the distributor in the wrong place, with #4 at TDC. You could pick it up, turn the drive with a screwdriver 180 and put it back, or if you've got room you could rewire the cap using the firing order but putting your #1 wire where your #4 wire is now. It gets all confusing this way but it's doable.

Those wet plugs will need to be dried out, or they'll often just keep resisting you.

I like to pull them and pass them through a propane flame once or twice 'cause it's quick but evaporation will do the trick too. Even a zippo if you smoke.

I think Ken's got you on the right path. I also think you are TDC on the exhaust stroke, not on the compression stroke.

Whatever this proves to be, however you resolve it (and be assured that you will), I guarantee this. You'll look back on this and go DOH! while laughing at the funny story of the learnin experience.

angela

Wonder if someone dropped the dizzy drive in 180 out ? I did that once and pulled hair until I figured it out....ok the more I think of this all that would need to be done was to move the dist wires two places forward, the firing order would then be: 3 2 1 4...it would run ok.

The postal service used to have a 'practical' test as part of the hiring process for new auto mechanics. One part of the test was to pull out the distributor of an AMC six cylinder engine and put it and the wires on a bench. Then the test examiner was to crank the engine any number of revolutions he felt was enough.

Then the examinee was told to replace the distributor and start the engine within 20 minutes.

The exam followed a written mechanic exam, and every applicant had already shown some combination of training and on-the-job experience before being tested at all, so they were supposed to be qualified auto mechanics before they walked in the door.

It was pretty amazing how many of them did not get their engine to start in the 20 minutes allowed. Some never got the distributor back in the hole.

Not getting that part didn't necessarily mean that the person flunked and some of the people who didn't get the distributor were hired because they had overall skills enough to outweigh the one failed part.

So you're doing fine, Jeff, and it'll come out right soon enough. This isn't a test.

even if the distributor drive gear is totally not indexed properly, if you pull the valve covers and ensure you are at TDC - you can still just turn the distributor until the #1 line matches the rotor.

you'll have it running in 1/2 hour of solid work. you know it's spark now.

Just to verify, this should be the state of your valves with #1 at TDC, as they appear looking at the open valve covers on each side of the car. Depending on cam, the open valves may not be pushed down very far, so compare them to the height of the closed valves.

driver side..passenger side
..3......4...........2....1
.O.O..O.C.......O.C..C.C

And one other check, since the #1 valves won't have a difference in height at TDC or if you are 1 rotation off, you can more easily see if you are at #1 TDC by looking at the #2 valves as their height difference is easier to see. With the pulley mark lined up it can only be one of these two.

..2
.O.C correct #1 TDC
.C.O incorrect #3 TDC

And with the plugs being wet, you could have the timing already correct, but those cylinders are just flooded and won't fire until they dry out.

Well we have a winner......

I went out and brought the engine to what I thought TDC. I pulled the cap off and it was pointing to the cap position that I had the #1 cylinder wire on. I then rotated the engine 1 complete revolution and noted where the rotor pointed. That now became my #1 plug wire spot. I them moved the wires in the correct firing order around the cap.

Turned the key and whala! NOTHING. Nope..it wouldn't start, sputter or even cough. I played with the dizzy for a while and nope...nada...nothing.

So I went back to my original specs. Brought it up to my old TDC, re-oriented the plug wires and tried to start it. It started. It ran crappy...but it started and ran.

So I went over to the 1/2 side and pulled the #2 wire....good spark arcing to the tin. Then...just then...I decided to use the best tool I got to diagnosis the problem......my ears.

I could hear a hissing sound coming from the intake area....a big hissing. I didn't have any carb cleaner so I grabbed some silicone spray and sprayed it around the intake. Did it change? Well maybe...but the hissing was there.

As its a single port lots of stuff had to come off. I took off the carb, the shroud & alternator, throttle cable, and all the other junk. I then loosened the retainer and slid it up the intake runner and there is was...a big old metal ring half in the port and half out the port.

So I dug around my stash and found two nice copper ones and re-installed the intake and everything else.

Turned the key.....VAROOOM! Starts up...idles very nice, no smoke, no hesitation. Set the timing, tweaked the mixture a little and let it idle right around 750 for about 15 minutes. No burps, no hicups, nothing. Sounds very good for and old box of parts.

So....Kevin Zagar is the winner!

Thanks for your help guys. Your motivation got me out there and got it done. This weekend the Avenger moves out of my shop and my winter project rolls in. This project might be a keeper so I am excited to get working on it.

Jeff,

That's great that you figured it out, and great that you took the time to give everyone the solution to the puzzle. Many times, folks who ask questions forget to post the answer when it finally comes. This site is a great resource and learning tool for all of us. It is made even better when the solution to the problem is given. Good on ya'.

That's great, Jeff! This kind of thread is the kind I like to read.

Well crap Jeff, I was in my shop today and thought: H case - single port and that a bad intake boot would kill two cylinders on the same bank so I was kinda close just didn't get to post it on time".

glad to hear you got it working. (pretty quickly too)

keep us in the loop on that car. you've done a nice job on it.

do you have a build thread anywhere you can share?

Any thread where a guy fixes his own car and Kevin is the winner - is an a-ok thread with me!

Well done!

angela

I do have a build thread....although you may need a weekend to get through it all....

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=295854

I have completed all of my other projects in about 1 year. This one, between my son's growing sports involvement and the complexity of the kit, took me about 3 years. Since my son got his license and can get to his practices on his own I have been able to get a little more time in the shop.

Thank you again to everyone for the motivation to get it running right.

Good to hear you got her back on her feet.... Now take her out for at least one drive before you get started on the next project....

Glad to have been able to help.....

Now I'm off to do my winner dance..... :)

Thanks again Kevin.

And yes, I do need to give her a little drive, but it will be short because at 6'2" I come no where near being able to fit inside.

Shheesh, if you'd have mentioned the hiss is the first place....

Jeff,

Do a little gangster lean into the passanger seat....



As for the diagnoses, here is what tipped me off:

1) after a few minutes the left side (3 & 4) exhaust pipes are very warm while the 1 & 2 are cold.
2) New carb, note 1 not 2 carbs. thus single port.

Single port manifolds are somewhat hard to get on correctly and pinched intake seals are very comon. There are steps to take when installing a single port manifold to keep this from happening.

Anyway, back to my winner dance.... If anyone else needs help I'll be here all week...... ;)