Need some help with a combination of engine parts and pieces.

I have one engine (1835) kind of under way, I used up all of my available parts for it, but I'm waiting on a set of adjustable push rods. I just CAN'T seem to shorten a set and make them work correctly. Three tries, three strikes.

In the mean time, I was wondering if I could pry a bit and find what you guys would consider the optimum cam for a 1914 with basically stock heads (mild port and polish, stock exhaust valves one step up intakes.)

I have a set of 1:25 rockers on solid shafts to use with the cam, so I can score a bit more lift without having to deal with the VZ line up from Engle.

I was thinking that a Web 110 or 89b might be a fun cam, possibly an Engle 120, but I sure could use some help here.

Thanks,

TC

Unless you're planning on a 6,500 RPM engine, stick with the 110

Why not take an old pushrod, cut it about 1 inch below one end. Tap the inside of the pushrod for a stud then screw the end pack on. Using this pushrod, you can measure what length you need and not try to cut pushrods. Cutting pushrods requires a lathe and a press to re-fit the end.

I made an adjustable push rod, I just have trouble with the whole "making it work? process. It's like a brain block or something. Honestly, I can't set valve lash either, simply can't get it done. I'm ALWAYS off even when I think that it dead on ! ! !

But, as for the cam . . . the 110 seems to work really well in a smaller engine with oversized valves, these heads have stock exhaust and 39mm intakes, I sort of need a higher lift and a quicker ramp to make them work, but the higher lift (like in the VZ or FK8 line from Engle) will wear the lifter bores a little too quickly. I'd like to go with a slightly more moderate cam than those and 1:25s but I need some help choosing a cam with everything that I need.

WEB has the 110 (a lot like the Engle 120,) the 218, and the 163, all of which I like the specs on. And of course the 86b, Breakfast of Champions, but I'd need better heads to take advantage of that one.

Anyone running the bigger Engle or a Web cam in a 1914 or stroked 1835? This car will live mostly on the highways, looking for strong pull from 3,500 to 6,500. Anything fast on the street will just get me a ticket with this car.

Thanks !

TC

Based on the stock heads, I was going to suggest the 120 cam.

TC -- I don't think your engine will be seeing much time at 6500. You might be out of punch well before 5000. An Engle W110 against 1.25 rockers is plenty on your essentially stock heads. That will give you about .54" gross lift (you don't want more)and timing which is more friendly to the general purpose driving you have in mind.

As far as the "adjustable push rods", I'm not sure what you are planning. You don't actually build the engine with "adjustable push rods". Adjustable push rods are for use as only a temporary tool. You only need ONE adjustable push rod, the one you use when setting up the rocker geometry. When that push rod is adjusted to the right length for proper rocker geometry, then you cut the Real push rod to the same length as the adjustable one.

Of course, if you don't have the hang of setting valve lash in the first place, then it might naturally follow that you are not to sure about setting up the rocker geometry with new push rods. All together it is not too surprising you are wasting push rods.

It is all easy to learn, though (I am testament to that). Do some research on setting up the rocker arm geometry (its out there on the web)and figure out the deal on setting valve lash until you can sleep through it! If you can't depend on yourself to roll the engine to TDC on compression stroke for each cylinder, then forget about nuances of cams, push rods and 6500 rpm.

Oh -- and although I cut my push rods by hand with a tubing cutter, you will always be better served by taking Larry's advice (above).

TC -- another thing: If you haven't decided what cam to use yet then that kind of implies you haven't sealed the case yet. If that's so, why are you even messing around with the push rods at this point?

PS: I have the Engle W110 X 1.25 lifter combo on a 2332 w/ Street Elim heads and 44 / 37 valves. Seems to work ok -- all the way to 6500.

What Larry and Mark said.
Mark I think he meant a "set of cut to length" pushrods.Don't turn the engine with an adjustable pushrod tool either.
I always cut pushrods on a lathe and tapped them in and used the lathe to check the seating.
A lot goes into selecting a cam, what will the engine be used for (strip,street,off road) where you want the power in the rpm range(low,mid,high),carbs used,trans gearing, tire size ect.

I've used a lot of Engle 110's and 120's, the 110 is probably best for this situation.Good low to mid range.

Its been a very long time (some 30 years) since I rebuilt a VW motor.. could you please explain the reason for adjustable push rods?? I am rebuilding a stock 1600cc, going to use an Engle 110 cam with the proper engle lifters, a lightened flywheel, and external oil filter/cooling system, a set of dual carbs and a header. is there any reason I should stay away from stock pushrods??

Any time you change the valvetrain geometry, increasing or reducing the deck heights, cutting the heads down,increasing the stroke ect... might require increasing or reducing the length of the pushrods so the valvetrain works correctly.

So if I am sticking with stock heads and cylinders I should be just fine with stock pushrods?? the cam shouldn't make a difference??

You should be fine. :-)

Simon - there are two ways to adjust the rocker arm geometry. changing the pushrod length or adjusting the shims under the assemblies.

i've set geometry several times and have come out both times within 1mm of a stock pushrod length. if i were you with a mild build like that - i'd use a stock pushrod , then measure the geometry to see how off it may be. if necessary - throw in some shims after if the lift / angle isn't up to par. you're using stock rockers - right? (not 1.25 / 1.4)

Ooooppsss . . .

Thanks for all of the help and apologies for the confusion.

The adjustable push rod problem concerns a previously built, but un-tested engine. This little engine is an 1835 (I know about the overheating problem, but I live in the North East, and usually it's not that hot or dry around here. It ain't LA.) The heads are ported and polished big-valve Magnum 44s with dual springs, carbs are re-configured Kadrons with AJs bigger venturies and blue printing. 76 eight dowel stroker, lightened flywheel, melling pump, full flow, all of the usual suspects, and an Engle FK8 cam with Pauter 1.4 billet rockers.

I've ruined a set of chromoly pushrods by doing them without the rocker shims in place, I did a second set of stockers to see if I could do them right and failed, I replaced the 1.4s with 1.25s thinking that I could run the cam "soft" and messed them up as well due to the 1.4 shims still being in place. Now I'm back to square one with the 1.4s back in, the correct shims under them, and an adjustable push rod in the tube, just waiting for me to adjust it wrong . . . it's like a horrible brain fart here, but I'll have Ed take care of it all for me next month, no problem.


This current engine is for my little Fiat 600. The engine is pretty much made of gathered and traded parts, hence the odd valves in the cut heads.

This collection of parts now includes a nice AH case opened up for 94s and tapped for full flow, HD oil pressure springs, HD 32mm oil pump, eight dowel stock throw eight dowel crank, stock rods, lightened flywheel, heads opened up for 94s with stock exhaust, 39mm intakes, 1.25 rockers, single HD valve springs, and the rest of the usual.

This is the engine that I need to choose a cam for. The Engle 120 makes good sense right now, in that I can "grow into it later with better heads, but it'll serve me well enough for right now. An alternative seems to be a Scat C35 or a 110 Web from what I now understand. The 110 seems pretty neat as well, but might limit me later on and I'd rather not open the case on this one a second time.

But, I really don't know for sure and could TOTALLY use the help here. The little car is very light, the chassis and suspension is maximized in every area, the trans is a true Freeway Flyer from Transform built a while ago with all of the good stuff and never used.
The tires are 205/55/15, wheels are Pedrinis.

I was hoping for 6,000 out of the engine, I could settle for 5,000 with the expectation of an honest 6,000 with head work later on.

Again,

Thanks ! ! ! Looking for some more info to work with, but for right now it's either an Engle 110 or 120, depending on whether I EVER really decide to spend the coin on better heads, right? Don't bother with the Scat or Web cams?

Lets get something straight here... If you have a 1835 cc engine, you don't have a 76mm stroker crank which is what I believe you indicated. An 1835cc engine has a stock stroke 69mm crank and 92 mm pistons.

Here's a break down of common combinations
the crankshaft stroke is listed first and the bore second
1584= 69 x 85.5
1640= 69 x 87
1678= 69 x 88
1775= 69 x 90.5
1835= 69 x 92
1915= 69 x 94

1700= 74 x 85.5
1968= 74 x 92
2054= 74 x 94

1955= 76 x 90.5
2020= 76 x 92
2109= 76 x 94

2006= 78 x 90.5
2074= 78 x 92
2165= 78 x 94

2110= 82 x 90.5
2180= 82 x 92
2276= 82 x 94

Larry - thanks for sharing that handy reference chart of engine stroke/bore.

Concise stroke/displacement reference listing at:

http://www.chirco.com/tech_articles/?p=163

Humph, I must be the only driver of a 1904 around here:

1904 = 74mm stroke, 90.5 bore

Nice and torquey, will smoke the tires if you want, runs cool with just the doghouse oil cooler & full-flow filter (even at 7,000' elevation).

Sorry . . . the piston/barrel is 92mm, what you would end up with for an 1835, the crank is indeed a 76mm. I just always refer to it as an 1835 'cause I'm lazy. Once I get a little more enthusiasm up and running, along with the Fiat finally up and running, that non-1835 engine will most likely be torn down and the heads opened up for 94s and a new case cut for 94s as well. It's not really worth the trouble of running it with the smaller weaker barrels and those sweet heads when I can have all of the 94mm cuts done locally for under $200 including the line bore if needed.

Anyway, thanks for that cool chart, but that engine isn't the problem, the cam choice for the 1914 is ! ! Got any ideas for me? PLEASE ! ? ! ?

I need help . . .

Hey Bill,
I'm building a 1904 I just dont know if going to stay in Speedy or my Ghia. I might put the 914 2.0 litre in Speedy. 1904's are good torquey engines and can rev pretty high to!

[[Sorry for the hijacked thread]]

Greg, As fun as the 1904 is, I think I'd have to opt for the 914 motor in the Speedie if I were you. That's a combo that sounds like a total blast.

[[now we return to your regularly-scheduled thread]]

(Further Hi-Jack)
When I saw the SAS Subie Speedy for sale at $25,000 in another thread I'm wondering if I shouldn't just put a 2 stroke Skoda with chain drive in my Speedy to sell it and get that one! I'll have way more in mine than $25K and it has hot water and electric windows! What a gem!

I'm still inclined to recommend the 110.

So a 110 will work equally well in a stock 1600 and a 1914? VERY cool. I've put that cam into an engine with 041 ported big valve heads and slip-in 88s and it was a holy terror.

What size shims would I need if I'm going to add the 1.25 rockers to the mix? Will the stock length push rods still work? Probably not, huh?

Shims dictate compression ratio, you'll need to cc the heads to know what size is needed.
The push rods will have to be cut from extra length rods using the previously mentioned adjustable rod aka tool to obtain the correct geometry.

If your referring to adjustment shims that sometimes come with swivel foot valve adjusters, use them sparingly or better yet cut some custom length pushrods for best geometry.

Shims can be used under the rocker assemblies but you need to measure the geometry before you do anything. You may need longer pushrods and the only way to determine that is to measure

Go here, scroll down until you find the section on Geometry

http://www.vdubn.com/sandrailing/engine/valvetrain.htm

Thanks Larry, GREAT link ! ! !

I should have made it clear that the shims that I was asking about were the ones beneath the rocker stanchions, sorry.

I guess that I'm all set then, A new Engle 110 with 1.25 rockers ought to set me up just fine. A double check on the rockers will decide if I need shims for the correct geometry, but it doesn't seem like I will.

Thanks all . . .

Larry,

Do you really keep all this in your head or do you have a lot of reference material lying around. I am always impressed with your techincal knowledge.

I crack a book evertime i adjust my valves just to "freshen things up". the weather in my skull is sometimes cloudy.

A bunch in my head and the rest as reference

Hey Bill...

What are you using for induction for your 1904? I was thinking of building this motor or a 1955. (76 stroke with 90.5 bore). Did you have to clearance the case much for 74 stroke?

Thanks,
Mike

Mike,
I bought it from a guy who knew the guy who built it...
So i don't know what he had to do to get that length of stroke to work.

Induction was a single Weber 44, which required me to cut the deck lid, even with the CB low profile manifold (see my pics). It ran like a friggin monster, but that single weber was finicky (sp?) as hell. Currently in the process of swapping in dual weber 40's, which are supposed to be easier to keep dialed in at our elevations and temps here in Colorado.

I'll post the results when I'm done setting it up.

The beauty of a 74mm crank is that no clearancing of your engine case is required. Use standard stroke pistons/cylinders with a 1/10 inch or 2.5mm spacer under the barrels

Bill, How about using a pair of Kadrons on that engine? It would be way less maintenance to keep those carbs tuned.

Mike

Mike, the Kadrons or 40 Webers run great when jetted correctly.The problem with single Webers can be the length of the intake runners and the valve timing. They can work great offroad, though sometimes with flat spots. My friend Adrian Audirac of Headflow Masters
vw-offroadmotors.com/main/index.html
Has created a new single Weber manifold that cures those problems.He gave me a tear sheet of a lot of his new ideas which I some how have misplaced. He also is throught bolting his type one cases like type 4's and alot of other great ideas incorporating type 4 features to type 1 cases that make them incredibly strong, BMW main bearings and other stuff. I'll get the info and post it in a couple of days. His engine building and headwork are real racewinners.

Hey speedbucket.... I beg to differ about Adrian's headwork. But that is an entirely different thread. A couple bad experiences with sloppy work on type 4 heads from him. It's a shame.

Mike

Mike, I'm sorry to hear that, I know he did alot of heads initially for Jake and you know his standards,from what I heard he still holds him in good regard. I've known him for years and he's always delivered for me but stuff does happen,your right that's another thread.

I didn't have to clearance anything for my 1904, I havent used a 76 stroke so Im not sure about clearance but the 78 stroke I always cut back the stock rods on the bolt head end and sometimes the cam thrust area plus usual case clearancing. I havent used the bubbletop cases yet( been out of it for a few years) so I'm not sure of clearance issues with them either.
My unsolicited 2 cents... :-)