Need to know more

As some of you know, I appeared on this forum about a little while ago. I was trying to sell my speedie, but good news I get to keep her!! We bought it on a whim last year because I mentioned to my husband that it is my dream car. (It was that or a ghia for our teenagers.) The kids didn't luck out on this one. :-)

Anyway, I was wondering if any of you could shed some light on what I have. I know it is a CMC and it is sitting on a 69 vw frame. I was told that it has a 1600cc engine and I am inclined to agree do to a somewhat lack of power.

I will be adding tech questions on the other forum as I come up with them but at this moment the one thing we are struggling with is the dual carbs. My husband has attempted to adjust them on multiple occasions and has the proper tool to do so but to no avail. His feeling is that the jets are too big. Does anyone have any other ideas?

I love forums!! They offer a plethora (sp?) of info!!

congratulations on the decision the keep her!

how about starting with some pictures of your engine. there are so many kinds of carbs.

if you have IDF's - http://www.carburetorclinic.com/

Let's start there. I just finished rebuilding my IDF's and rejetting them - so i probably will be able to help.

Since the mechanical underpinnings are VW, theSamba.com has more than all the info you will ever need and we'll be able to help with the speedster stuff. :)

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/

If you have Weber Carbs, the first thing for a newbie to do is buy Bob Tomlinson's Weber Tech Manual.....Available from CB Performance for around $15.00-$20.00......The Tomlinsons are CB's founding family...The book will explain in detail the inner workings, proper setup and maintenance, jetting and synchronizing procedures, plus a history of the company.....Anyone with one will swear by it.....It makes things sooooo much simpler.....

Just a thought.......and this is part of the madness....Ain't life fun?

Could you take a picture of your carbs and post it on the forum? It would be helpful to know what we are looking at. Somehow, it seems to me that webers on a 1600, unless it has some head work, would be a bit over the top. I'm betting that they are Kadrons, but a picture speaks a thousand words.

Also, if you have Weber carbs , you can go to webercarbsdirect.com.On that site you can order tech manuals, parts, and if you go to "tech info" you will find exploded schematics of each carb with part names and numbers and some very good photos. This has helped me control some of my madness. Good luck.

They are probably the baby Webers, one barrel, I forget the letters of them but they are generally pretty reliable. I had to get one of mine worked on before I sold it. It sat all winter with gas in the bowl and crudded up the jets.

That's what I have on my speedster. 34ICT. Mine runs erratically right now no matter many times I twiddle with it. I'm pretty sure it's all crudded up and has a vacuum leak of some sort. Ordered rebuild kits thru Weber.com and she will go under the knife after the weekend. I hope it becomes more reliable and smoother. I think it's very important to keep a close eye on dirt and fuel with these carbs.

It's funny because I had Solex's on my car until last fall when I put 34 ICT's on it. Other than the initial tweaking and adjusting I haven't had to touch the webers since. The solexs were jetted too big and once I started messing with the jetting they were never the same. It was either run rich or constantly fiddle.

After some research my husband found that we have Weber IDF 48s and the jet size is 55. I have posted some pics of the engine and carbs. He has adjusted them and they run sooooo rich. He was contemplating getting rid of the dual carbs and go to a single. Is this a good idea or should we keep fiddling with the webers?

Denise,
48's are monsters and the photos don's look like 48's to me. Not being an expert, but on your 1600 cc engine, I'd think those were 40's and maybe 44's. They all look very similar.

dale

The look an awful lot like my 44's. I would think that those are way too much carb for a 1600.

Sorry for the hi-jack. Thanks Mickey, That's good to hear. My carbs could be 15 years old or so and I hope they work out after a rebuild. I really don't want to replace them if I don't have to.

The carbs say right on them IDF 48 6 6R. How do I verify the size of the engine? We were told it was a 1600. I have a pic in an earlier post of the numbers stamped on the side of the block. Are those the right numbers? Where else should I be looking?

With 48's and a 1600 should I downsize the carbs? Or upsize the engine?

If you have a 1600, the case numbers mean nothing because it is pretty easy to change the size of the engine, it would be far less expensive to change the carbs, again if they are 48's. Changing the size of the engine to be adequate for 48's would generate a lot more fun however.

If I were you, I'd get to a local, knowledgeable VW shop, and ask them about the carbs.

Where do you and the car live?

My suggestion:
Pull the Weber 48's, they are drowning your 1600cc motor. Clean the Webers up a bit and sell them on the Samba or eBay.
They will bring at least $500 - $550.
Get yourself a set of Solex-Kadron's ( electric choke version is a plus) for $400 or less.
Another option is to buy a singel Weber progressive 2 bbl carb and manifold for $400, once dialed in, there is really nothing more to tweak and it has an electric choke too for smooth cold start ups. ~Alan

The number you posted is the casting number. There is a serial number on top of engine where case splits by the distributor. It will tell you the year of the block - still no real indication of displacement though. Probably starts with B6/AE/AH. My bet would be it has 87mm P&C which gives you like 1641cc displacement. If you can see where the cylinder sleeve go into the case and it is very vlose to the heads studs - then the case could have been bored for larger P&C (up to a respectable 18xx cc)- probably hard to tell unless you have a stock one for reference.

48s would be a WHOLE lot of carb for a 1600, and Allen's advice, if you do indeed have a 1600 and the carbs REALLY are 48's (they look exactly like my 44s and I think the IDF bodies go down to 42) then you have a pretty poor match. If the engine really is bigger (and I have no good way to figure out how big the engine is, although I bet someone here will know how to test this), then maybe all you have to do is re-jet, which is not all that big a deal, but maybe a tad expensive to buy the new jets. What Allen is saying here is, go get a much tamer (more reliable) carb, finance it w/ these manster Webers, have some jingle left over, and fix the engine up w/ the nice addition of a choke for cold weather, then enjoy a nice easy-going, reliable Speedster that will offer not too much trouble.

If you have (or want to have) a larger engine w/ sporty carb and are interetsed in horsepower and screaming around the neighborhood, then you'll want to tweak up those carbs and get them tuned up proper for that engine. Or maybe go for another engine. There would be many possibilities.

PS: seems to me it would not be too hard to measure the throat diameter and then you would know for sure.

IDF 48's are massive overkill for 1600cc.....What is the length of the spark plug threads in the heads? 3/4 inch would indicate hi-perf heads and point toward bigger displacement....A very crude method to determine displacement would be to lift one side of the car 15-20 degtees,pull a plug on the high side and fill that cylinder with oil, while measuring how much oil it took to reach the bottom of the plug hole.....allowing 60-65cc for chamber volume and deck height should get you in the ball park....it won't be totaly accurate, but should be close enough to select proper carb jetting...........You cannot assume a Weber jet is a specific size in a used carb...Many have been drilled to the correct size when first installed, rendering the stamped number meaningless.....C.B. Perf does this on the turnkey engines they build, so I would assume it would be a common practice....you would need a jet guage set to determine your jet sizes....these are available from many sources.....First things first...determine your engine size....48's work well on most engines over 2165cc.....I'm sure Larry J. and others have used them on smaller engines, but tuning them gets tedious....

Just a thought....Good luck...

P.S. If you tilt the car, to check displacement, I forgot to say that the cylinder used should be at the bottom of it's stroke.......You may find it easier to check the engine with it out of the car....Sorry.

Regarding your engine and the Weber 48

Me thinks that they are in Longview, WA

We are in Longview, WA

I'd buy a set of ICTs from CB Performance, and sell the IDFs on the Samba. You'll pocket a couple of hundred bucks in the deal (if they are 48s), and get carbs that will work reasonably well (with what you've got) right out of the box.

You could probably make almost anything work for a 1600, given enough time and money- by buying a full set of vents, and a quiver full of jets- but the real question is why you'd want to? The ICTs would be cheaper, and are the ticket for a small, mild Type 1.

One of the points I am trying to make is in regard to the fact none of us know what size this engine really is. I am in violent agreement that if it really is a 1600cc then the Weber 48's should be replaced with something much more sized for the engine. However, since we don't know what it is, we have one more clue it may not be a 1600 cc. And that is the fact that a former owner thought the Webers were a good idea. Now he may have been a raving maniac, or he may have known the engine was much bigger and could use the Webers. one or the other...its anybody guess.

This engine could well be a 1835, 2109, 2165, or a 2275 cc, we don't know. if it were mine I would drop the engine this afternoon, pull a head, and have a very quick answer to the size question. I would also know quickly if it was a candidate for an overhaul, or replacment, or leave as is, bolt it back in, either change out the carbs or not, tune it up, and enjoy. Several others on the board would do the same. But in this case, I don't think the owner is inclined to do that.....and I understand that, hence the recommendation to find someone who does know VW's to help before $$$ are spent with no guarentee of good results.

Ok I looked on the front of the engine and found AB368381. I looked it up on the net and found that it is a 1966-1979 1600cc. Unless it was bored out (which i doubt) the engine and the carbs do not make sense to be together. What is my next step? I wouldn't mind except that everytime I take her out, she stinks!! I hate the smell of overly rich exhaust. Help!

"What's my next step?"

I'd take Stans advice. As I mentioned above, I had Solexs 40's on my 1600 when I got it, it always ran rich. I rebuilt them, changed jets, ect... and then I had trouble dialing them in. I ended up putting Weber 34 ICT's on it and it and after dialing them in it's run great ever since. It was a little tricky getting them set properly but probably because I was trying to do it. After I handed over to someone who knew what they were doing they got them set up easily. That's not to say that Solexs are not good carbs, alot of people use them with great results.
Anyway, the result of Weber 34 ICT's for me was better performance and better gas mileage. I think they are much more suitable for a 1600.
That's probably the most economical way to go. I believe the 34's are only @ $400. If you decide to get an engine to fit those 48's, I feel confident in saying it'll be a little more than $400. LOL

It would be a good idea to find out what displacement you have (you don't know what's in there until you take off at least one head to find out bore size and then again even then you don't know if you have a stroked engine. Even with a big engine 48's seem a lot of carb for a street engine; they tend to be used in race cars, etc.

Umm, if you measure the distance from piston at TDC to BDC, could you not discern the stroke, as long as the head is off? Even with the head on, if you put a plastic thing down there, such as a straw, couldn't you possibly get an approximation of stroke? If it is stroked, chances are it is bored out. If stock stroke, 66-69 mm, depending on year, it could only be as big as 1915cc.

Makes sense.

New carb ordered yesterday. Cant wait for it to come in. After we get it installed I will be selling my IDF 48's. http://www.cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=1357

Well.....

I wish you well. That's certainly going from one extreme to the other.

Daniel - we're talking about only a few mm, so the plastic straw thing down the spark plug would be pretty hard to do.

Another option to get a quick guess at if it's a stroker is to see how well the fan shroud fits the cylinder tins. If there is a spacer added (proper way) or a gap on the left and right side of the bottom of the fan shroud (near the top of the cylinder tin) - then it's likely stroked.

I will more than likely upgrade the engine down the road but for now a single carb should be better suited for my engine.

Sorry, but that seems like a poor choice. Someone put a pair of expensive carbs on your engine. The photos of your car and the motor seem like evidence of a big motor. It shows a nice breather system with braided lines. Moer evidence of a big motor. If you think that the engine ran poorly with those Webers, wait till it runs with that single, if it is a big bore stroker! No offense, but a little more investigation into what you have, both the real size of Webers and the size of your engine would be a good idea. Anything is possible, but it would be odd to pt a set of 48's on a 1600. Just saying. Good luck!

Will,
The stamp on the front of the engine indicates that is a 1600. Even if it has been bored out the best they could have gotten was 18-1900. The 48's are still overkill either way. We will see. I will let you all know. :-)

Denise-

I'm not sure who told you the limitation on a Type 1 engine stamped "1600" was 1800-1900cc, but they were mistaken.

A mag case (the kind stamped "1600"), is commonly bored up to 94mm, and can be stroked to 84 mm without welding- yielding an engine that is 2387 cc. I have a new 2332 built on a mag case, and running 48 Dellorto DRLAs very similar to Weber 48 IDFs. Pat Downs built a 2387 for a dyno shoot-out that ran a pair of Weber 48 IDAs with a kit to increase the throttle bodies to 51.5 mm that made almost 240 hp.

The stamping doesn't mean anything other than the family of case. It's a starting point for whatever got done in the process of putting the engine together.

Forget about my ICT recommendation earlier. You really need to know for sure what you've got back there.

I said it, but not quite. I said if the engine has a stock bore of 69mm, the max displacement is 1915cc in a type1. That hasn't been verified yet.

"$$$ spent w/out good results" -- sounds like that path may have been taken. What you are doing (swapping what is most liekly too much carb for what could be too little carb) may end up w/ higher mileage, good driveability and something less stinky -- or may trade one set of troubles for another. Just know that stinky (unburned) gas smell out the exhaust can come from a faulty/dirty low speed (aka idle) jet, as I have recently found out, and all esle is fine. I am guessing you serviced/cleaned the carbs (all throats), balanced the linkage and verified the float level and supply pressure were correct on those 48s, and the problem persisted. Good luck, and keep us posted.

I have posted the results in general forum. Titled no more tears. Check it out. I am more than happy. I understand and appreciate your concern. Livin on the edge here. ;-)