Need unbiased help

As many of you have observed, I have been trying to get my 359 on the street. I have been wrestling with a couple of problems with the rotary engine that I have discovered upon driving longer intervals durings the shakedowns to make it streetable. My goal is to have a dependable car that will get me where I want to go with out too many issues. While I have a pretty good background in V8's and type I's, I knew very little about rotaries and very little about type 4's. This is my problem.
I ran it for about 5 minutes mid range rpms which had a slight miss at higher speeds which doesn

Without being disrespectful to Wankel freaks, if I were you, I'd go with the Type IV; there's enough parts and knowledge from Jake Raby around to keep you going. Parts availability/price and limited knowledge on Wankels make them less practical for your intended use. That's my humble opinion.

Michael, The type 4 engine would be a great choice for the 359 body...considering the extra mass it is pushing. You'll get plenty of low end power from it. Also the type 4 engine is pretty much bullit pruff. If I had your car I would definatly give it consideration. Oh, by the way...I have nothing against the rotary engine....I just think a type 4 or even a suby engine would be a better choice considering the size and extra weight of the 359 body. Michael

The mid range miss you have is a problem. The rotary should be smooth as glass. The problem may be that it is running a little lean in this point. That would make a miss and compound your exhaust gas temperatures.

The exhaust on a rotary is EXTREMELY hot. Hotter than any other car. 1600-1700 degrees under rpm/load is normal. Your upper pipes glowing cherry red under rpm/load is actually normal. On my car, even when running with enough fuel (not lean) probably the first 8-10 inches glowed red, then cooler from that point back. I am assuming your speedy is rear engined. That would put the exhaust ports on the driver side. I ran my car with a VW "stinger" type exhaust only with a glass pack insert that coupled short headers to the stinger and straight out the rear. Don't do that. The rotary exhaust was so hot that it melted the fiberglass insert in the first 10 miles and made little glass puddles that dripped in liquid form out the exhaust. Then I had no muffler at all... And rotarys are also the LOUDEST engine ever built. If it is possible, run the water pipes on the passenger side, exhaust on driver's side only. The muffler will be problematic. Probably best solution is the supertrapp type system, it will live with a rotary and in your confined space, give you some type of exhaust. Be advised, it will be extremely loud under throttle, but not too bad at just idle.

Also, regarding the miss, make sure the trailing and leading spark plugs wires are not reversed. They are marked T and L on the rotor housing.

Under no condition should this engine overheat. My car was very picky about the coolant adding system, I had to effectively, "burp" the radiator as it was lower than the engine. Otherwise, I got an air lock in the radiator and the car would get hot. Make sure the thermostat works. I had one that was stuck. So I removed it. It overheated worse without a thermostat than with the sticky one.

I know you asked for an unbiased opinon and I'm a rotary nut so I'm biased. But it would likely take alot less work to fix what is wrong here than to remove all of it including the radiator and start all over. angela

Angela,
I am happy that you gave your opinion, I appreciate your time.
The spark plug wires are correct, I assume its running lean too. The supertrapp exhaust is a question as to legality here in Texas. I ran the coolant lines on the passenger side but it was not a very good place due to the fact the water pump outlet is on the opposite side.

The supertrap exhaust is worth looking into but a louder type of exhaust is not what I wanted...can I send you a photo of the current setup and you give me some input?

Michael

Actually, Micheal, I gave that car to the postman a couple of years ago... Weird/funny story behind that one. I have pics somewhere in storage, but I do not recall any good ones of the exhaust. For the water inlets, I used a 180 pipe to change the direction abruptly and then hard line down to the X1/9 center factory water lines. Then a 90" soft elbow into them. IT was a convoluted run out of the water pump, but I used big pipes and water does flow very easily.

As the car was mid-engined, my exhaust ports were in the middle of the car on the rear side. Had to step up to clear the axle in this transverse install. Hard mounted the long axle shaft with a carrier bearing to the front "side" housing of the engine re-using existing factory tapped holes. This kept the axle from moving up and down into the exhaust and allowed two identical short CV equipped axles on the left and right side. Copied the idea from a chrysler FWD turbo car, the factory used that setup on those cars to help eliminate some of the torque steer inherent with the blown motors.

The exhaust pipes came to a "y" about 8-10 inches from the exhaust ports and then into a very short pipe, then straight into the stinger exhaust. I believe it was something like 130-135 db at full song, or should I say scream... But was quite pleasant at part throttle and just driving along. I put 13,000 plus miles on that setup as a daily driver. The car then sat dormant for a long time while I went to school, married my husband and started making baby humans. Then I gave the car away to someone I knew loved rotary engines as much as I do.

The supertrapps will be significantly quieter than that even on a rotary. There is also the advantage of the tuneing factor with that system. The rotary is very responsive to the exhaust tuning at the sacrifice of noise.

Hope I did not insult you with the L/T ignition swap, its actually pretty common. I'm just really enthused over the install of your rotary engine in that car. My 13B with after market fuel injection threw down something like 180 HP in my fiat. The stock Fiat motor was 67 HP. It was a SCREAM!!! Loved it! Isn't there someone else who has a rotary speedster? I think Thunder Ranch built one for somebody. You might give them a shout, perhaps some of the issues in the rotary-speedster have been engineered thru (usually the hard way!). Perhaps a chat with the right person there will allow you to learn from their re-engineering. angela

Angela,
You will have to try harder than that to insult me. Found its easier to consider whats been said than fly into a rage over perceived insults. Now thats not to say I won't b&%@h slap someone who deserves it. ;) Just with age brings tolerance..

I like your attitude toward cars, life so don't worry about that.

I will try Thunder Ranch but my mind is going towards the Type IV. I worked a 16 hour shift last night and all I thought about was "where can I route".... lol...hobby or passion?


Michael

If you have a wankle installed already and just need to work out some bugs (no VW pun intended) - I'd pursue working them out. I'd love to go the Subaru route even though I have a 1.8 TIV awaiting rebuild/conversion.

I just spent a great 35 minutes talking with Joe Soltis going over this issue. He's had experience with both rotaries and type IV's and I explained to him the problems. With the limited space and heat issues, I am leaning toward the type IV. I am waiting to see if I get a response from Tom McBurnie at Thunder Ranch and from one other builder about their experiences with rotaries. That will seal the deal.
If someone else has better ideas I may change that goal.



Michael

Talked with Thunder Ranch this am, they stated they had never made one with a rotary engine. I was also told that the heat issue with them was the major reason.
I also talked to a local racer/fabricator who was sorta intrigued by the idea but was also curious about how to do the exhaust and be legal AND nonflammable in the space constraints noted.

Michael

Hey, check this out. Hopefully they are still in business. knew I'd seen a rotary powered speedy somewhere... Thing is, I remember it being red. The pictures on this site do not illustrate the cooling system. If they are still around, bet they could answer your questions.

http://www.rotaryracing.com/ff_customer_cars.htm

angela

Perhaps this should be in the water cooled forum

Troy,
The subject was rotary vs type 4...so its fine in this topic list being Type 4's are air cooled. I was needing info to help me decide.

Michael

Take a ride in Joe Soltis' car and you'll have your mind made up in a jiffy...

And it all bolts up, and it doesn't have a damn radiator!

Jake , what did you think of the little movie. To bad the # 1 intake valve was out of adjustment. I was only about 5/8 into the throttle. Was still taken it easy on the RAT. The 1/4 mile run we made was a big difference. I am lovin it. Too bad its getting cold up here now.
Joe

Video was awesome.....Next time get on it harder!

You also asked for an unbiased opinion, and about the only people telling you to go to the type 4 are the "diehard" aircooled guys.

Asking for an unbiased opinion on this forum is like asking for a Virgin in a whore house. It's possible in theory, but not very likely.

What kind of times are you getting in the 1//4 Joe?

As for engine recommendations, what you want is truthful opinions based on experience, and experience builds bias. But so long as they are truthful, they should be helpful. The decision however, remains yours to make based on those opinions.

Steven,
I have not based my pending decision upon only this forum. I have done some local exploring and will make my decision mostly upon private discussions, my piggy bank, and my mechanical ability.

Now if I was well funded (after grad school...NOT) I would probably be sitting on Jakes doorstep as I have alot of respect for him as a mechanic. That has been earned from many peoples recommendation of him and his work. Also being an ex marine, Jake has earned my respect by being a retired Navy corpsman who spent 12 years or so with the Marines.

Nothing beats a well tuned dual carb setup screaming thru a tuned header!

Ego wise, I hate giving up on the rotary as the whole car was nonfunctional at the start and now, all (hah!) the problems I have are flammable!

Reason for wanting to get it dependable and functioning? Why to enjoy it of course! I also want to give Jim Ward a run for his money on mileage. I don't keep show cars, I build them or buy them to enjoy.

I want to meet alot of SOC members as I have always like variety in my friends. I have gotten alot of help from Jerome Smith, Joe Soltis, Alan Merklin and Angela Lane so I can do nothing but benefit from meeting the rest at meets such as Carilyse.

Thanks again for the help.

michael

Michael,

I can not help you on the Rotary vs Type IV decision but if you and your 959 make it to Carlisle I will buy you a cold one!

Karl

Karl..
Barring death and taxes..I will be there either in the 359 or 350z.
I will take you up on the cold one and be rady to buy the next..

Michael

Ron , Final pass was ET 13.435 sec @ 101.45MPH.
If your are looking for an engine builder you have to find one that up front and honest. Big product builders tend to loose the precision. Most times they have cheap help assemble the engines. In my racing years I went through great engine builders and poor. The guys that were not to busy to give you their extra time were the ones we had the most success. The more detail craftsmen tend to charge more for their engines. They don't want to put something out in a car that's going to look bad. If something broke the good engine builder wanted to know why it failed. One mans failure is a learning experience for others.
I am very happy with my engine and the engine builder. For not being to knowledgeable about VW aircool engines Jake helped me alot.

Joe, Thanks for the kind words and I'm glad your car is finally on the road!

Damn, that baby is fast too!

How many revs were you turning through the traps??? Did you make it into 4th gear at all? I typically wind that tranny combo through the traps in 3rd gear at red line..

Interesting day today....
Called one rotary guy that Angela put me onto, he wants me to send him photos and he will give me his opinion. My wife treated a guy a year ago that owns a speed shop, I calleed him, he will try anything once so I may try a new bend on the coolant tubes that place it up on the firewall and over the top side of the engine. Then we are going to see if we can make a custom exhaust that goes under the engine to the opposite side and then wrap both with insulation.

Bad news, already agreed to purchase a type IV engine, fairly cheap so its sitting in the wings, waiting...its mostly stock so I guess I could send it to Jake for a build if this doesnt work out. Its got a DTM and two new 40's on it, so its not a totally loss.

Angela, I am trying!

Michael

Update:

The repairs needed to make the rotary a reliable cruiser is quite pricy if I do it the right way. I need to have a custom stainless exhaust made and at least one new stainless coolant line remade.

Dunno what stainless costs you in other parts but I found one guy who can fabricate my muffler and lines...for a cost of $1054.00. Not totally out of line considering my previous costs for other lines. I guess I could go with aluminum and protect the lines better...that would cut about $200. And I may just fab my own exhaust with 90 degree bends and straight sections and then have it replicated in stainless. Anyway...I haven't given up but the air cooled issues seems much easier to deal with.

michael