Needle Roller Bearings in Transmission Oil

Sorry to hear that. 

Wow. Bummer.

That's not good.  Is it a recent rebuilt trans?  Is it making whining noises?  Looks like there are lots of them in the trans.

http://vwhelp.bizhosting.com/~tran.sa.htm

I did same years go on an Opel Kadette Rallye and out dropped a big gear tooth.  Shortly after - it wouldn't shift gears at all.  

It’s not a recently rebuilt transmission. I’m the fourth owner of this Speedster that was originally built in 2001 and it has 27,000 miles on it. It hasn’t been making any noise and it’s been shifting fine. The only time I’ve had any issues with shifting has been when going into reverse. Sometimes it takes a few tries to get it in just right but nothing so bad it caused me any concern. 

That would ruin my day too. If the trans has yet to have harsh noises it can be rebuilt, sometimes much quicker to do a core exchange if, you can locate a rebuilt trans by you. Figure half a  day to remove and another day or two,  to reinstall it all. Check  the CV axles ( if IRS) condition now is the time to change them,  I get axles for $106 a pair w/ grease shipped from ebay. Might as well consider replacing a clutch and throw out bearing & check all mounts, cables, rear main seal, trans pilot shaft seal and any leaks on the engine  etc. while you're there too.

Geez....That photo made me cringe.

You can also email Sam at Rancho Transaxles in Fullerton, CA.  

samshack3804@aol.com  

They can either do a rebuild of yours or, as Al mentioned, do a swap for a new one, using yours as a core, in much shorter time, if you're in a hurry.  Figure 60 pounds if you need to ship it.  Much easier if you get the new one shipped first, then use their shipping container to ship yours back to them.

They did my transaxles and I'm pretty happy with their work.

Yeah Doc, so far no noises and no difficult shifts so I'm hopeful the damage isn't too severe. Still didn't make my gut feel any worse though. 

I got the rebuild part covered already. As soon as I saw the bits I text Scott Sebastian and the transmission is going to him for repair. Transmissions are Scott's business and he has done work for Troy, Teby, Anand, Pat Downs, my friend Ed, and for me. (He did the install on my Setrab oil cooler) I'm going to see if I can help out some for the chance to gain some knowledge.

Sure am glad those plugs are magnetic, otherwise I may have changed the oil and never known a thing about this ticking time bomb.

Yikes!  That picture gave me a sinking feeling, and it's not even my car.

Good luck , Robert.

Thankfully the magnet captured those bearings, otherwise they could have found their way in between gears and done some heavy damage.  I'm interested to know where they came from.

Trans shipping :I use a heavy duty plastic tub ( about $9.00 @WalMart)  set the trans in stuff some crushed cardboard boxes around it to secure it in place, nylon strand packing tape will secure the tub lid . The best part of this is no chance of oil leaks and UPS will ship it that way ...and the rebuilder can send it back to you the same way .I've done this few times. been 

Some needle bearing cages are plastic, and while I didn't know that the needle bearings themselves themselves could find their way out from between a gear and shaft, here we are. I guess that's why Gene Berg took the trouble to find full length ones for hand packing the shafts (still great controversy whether that modification is at all beneficial). While it's still running fine (and it may run great like that for some time!) you're doing the smart thing, Robert, by taking care of it now. I've heard good things about Scott, and you personally know a bunch of people that benefited from his expertise so it sounds like you are in good hands.

Just so you all know- if dealing with a trans rebuilder that offers exchanges you may want to think twice about using that option. I know it's faster, but a lot of transaxles that are used for cores have huge (did you see that word? HUGE, I tell you, HUGE!!!) mileage on them and are really, really worn out to the point that there's no longer a press fit for the pinion shaft bearing (the trans case itself needs to be replaced), which is a huge (there's that word again!) issue for longevity of said unit and all sorts of parts inside are just plain done. Ted spent some big bucks (over and above Gary's not cheap rebuild price) just replacing a bunch of worn out stuff inside the trans (Ted, if you read this I'd love to see that list 1 day) so the thing would shift properly and last. I'm sure Ted's Berg 5 will give great service and last a long time. Send the trans to whoever will rebuild it with very clear instructions that you want yours rebuilt and sent back!  

This is why it's better (I think) do deal with someone local (they are out there- you just have to find them) who will show you what's wrong with your trans and take more care in the re-assembling of it. If (for some reason; no one is infallible) it does need to go back you're also not paying big freight charges back and forth again (what is it- 100? $200? to send a 70 lb. transaxle across your fair country one way? That adds up fast!).

I shipped a trans from San Jose to LA for 130.00 in a heavy duty box. The Wal-Mart tub would have been quicker and easier. 

TRP posted:

I shipped a trans from San Jose to LA for 130.00 in a heavy duty box. The Wal-Mart tub would have been quicker and easier. 

$130 for both ways? or each?

I've had two transmissions rebuilt in the past 3 years. One was a 4 speed. One was the now infamous 5. 

Anthony gave me the same warning that ALB mentions above. I thought I would roll the dice and get lucky. I lost that bet on both. Anthony also suggested I go with a builder and not off the shelf unit from Rancho.  This time I listened to him. I ran a bit more but I came home with quality goods.

The 4 speed was rebuilt by Ken Porter in Auburn/Placerville. Anthony gave me a list of reccomended upgrades over stock.  We did all of them. Im pretty sure I humble-bragged all about it in my thread. The 5 was done by Gary. That build is well documented.

Both builders replaced nearly everthing inside each trans with new or as new parts. The parts add up quickly. I can dig up the reciepts if you want to know how much, but I may cry. If I was a smart man I would have used the rebuilt 4 as my foundation for the 5. I didn't.  I went with 3.88's, beef a diffs, beefier spider gears and end gears (less teeth, more beef),  welded 3rd and 4th, etc. Etc.

As much as I hate to say this... If you EVER thought about a 5, now is the time to do it.

ALB posted:

TRP posted:

I shipped a trans from San Jose to LA for 130.00 in a heavy duty box. The Wal-Mart tub would have been quicker and easier. 

$130 for both ways? or each?

Each way...

Ouch! How long a drive is it to Gary's shop?

PS- do you have a list of what Gary replaced?

If I were to drive to Gary's it would be 7 to 8 hours each way.

The parts list starts here:

LABORS
Assemble Berg 5 Speed
Deburr and Lap Ring & Pinion Pattern
Correct Manufactures Defects


PARTS
Fag Pinion Bearing
SKF Carrier Bearings
1.48 Weddle 3rd gear w/ hub, welded & honed to fit
1.13 Weddle 4th gear w/hub, welded & honed to fit
.89 Weddle 5th gear w/hub, welded & honed to fit
Genuine VW 1-2 Synchro's
Genuine VW 3-4-5 Synchro's
Chromoly Pinion Bearing Retainer
Hardened Keys
5mm Slider for 5th Gear
Gasket Kit
1-2 Late Slider New
1-2 Fork
2.06 2nd gear New
Berg Por-Mans Posi
Berg 3-4 Sleeve & Washer
Starter Bushing
Brass Bushing Kit for Clutch cross shaft
HD Clutch Cross Shaft
T/O Bearing Guide Collar
Late T/O Bearing INA German
Diff Snap Rings
Reverse Gear


PARTS (good used)
Genuine VW 8 Bolt Carrier
10 tooth Spider Gears
3-4 Steel Cage Needle Bearings
3-4 Sleeve for 5th gear

We added a few other parts at the end.

Ted

ALB posted:

...Just so you all know- if dealing with a trans rebuilder that offers exchanges you may want to think twice about using that option. I know it's faster, but a lot of transaxles that are used for cores have huge ... mileage on them and are really, really worn out ...

 

When the " 3.88 Freeway Flyer " that came in my new VS turned out to have a 4.12 inside, we thought we could drop in a gen-u-wine 3.88 R&P and be done.

But when Ken Porter saw how old the case was and the state of other bits inside, he said he couldn't in good conscience use that core for a rebuild. We ended up starting from scratch.

I think if you want a car you can head on down the highway in, with some hope of making it back home again, you need to make sure you know where all of your parts came from and who put them together.

Be careful out there, kids.

Robert M posted:

Yeah Doc, so far no noises and no difficult shifts so I'm hopeful the damage isn't too severe. Still didn't make my gut feel any worse though. 

I got the rebuild part covered already. As soon as I saw the bits I text Scott Sebastian and the transmission is going to him for repair. Transmissions are Scott's business and he has done work for Troy, Teby, Anand, Pat Downs, my friend Ed, and for me. (He did the install on my Setrab oil cooler) I'm going to see if I can help out some for the chance to gain some knowledge.

Sure am glad those plugs are magnetic, otherwise I may have changed the oil and never known a thing about this ticking time bomb.

Should have said, "It didn't make my gut feel any better though.".

And Scott is only 30 minutes from my house so I'll trailer the car over to get the work done.

Oh boy, that is that real deep sinking feeling! I had lots of slop(main bearing) and lots of filings on the magnet. After a good bit of parts from Weddle, and some tool purchases and fabrications, I did my rebuild myself. Probably about 500-600 bucks, but that included a new 12 ton shop press from HF. Very satisfying to snick it into gear each time!

Then I missed a 4-3 downshift at 80 mph(yes, you read that right!) and zinged the 3-4 synchro, hub, and slider. I zinged it so bad you couldn't downshift from 4-3 at any speed except stopped! So apart it came, replaced the necessary parts, and back together it went. MUCH easier to do the second time!

My point is you CAN do it if you really want to, despite the naysayers that sometimes abound around here. I'd get somebody close to home if you can, Robert. Sounds like you're in good hands.

The trans that came in my Spyder kit also was advertised to have a 3.88 but turned out to have a 4.12. I'm glad I had Sartwell go through it.

It's not that it can't be done by someone with more than average mechanical skills (and experience) Danny. For most hobbyists, though, who may only ever do 1 (or even 2) transaxles, the tool outlay alone isn't justifiable. Point- you bought a 10 ton press; they are handy to have around the shop (iIrc I used mine for pressing cv joints and rebuilding the drive shaft in my Toyoda 4x4 when I had it), but it's something that would take up room once they were done in a lot of garages. Couple that with the complexity of the job at hand, the number of changes in parts over the years (and what it takes to "mix and match" late this with early that when what you need is no longer available), the time it takes and the possibility that you may be taking it out of the car and tearing back into it 2, 3 and even 4 times before it's working properly (seen it happen) and you can understand why I think most people should seek out someone already versed in trans lore when theirs is in need of attention.

Honestly, I have never worked on the insides of a VW transaxle, BUT I've rebuilt/hardened three early Ford gearboxes and one LaSalle (essentially the same as the Ford, but a 4-speed).  With the right tools and a special, home-made jig or two, they're about the same as working on an engine.  Take your time, set everything to spec and it'll be fine, usually.  I will say that transaxles smell bad, but that's because of the stinky, 90wt Hypoid oil they often use.

That said, the ones I did took way longer to finish than if I had sent them out to someone who knew what the hell he was doing, and I ended up with a measuring jig that has sat in my tool chest now, untouched, since 1970!  (Well, actually, I have touched it five times, each time when we moved to a different house...)  My sister-in-law has offered me my brother's 12-ton HF shop press, but as Al alluded, I have zero place to put it and would probably use it once every three years - I just can't justify it taking up floor space.

Next time, I'm buildin' a 4-car garage!  With 16' ceilings!   And a Lift!   And friggin Radiant HEAT!

Oh, and Robert - 

The needle bearings in our transaxles typically are held in place by a plastic cage that acts more as a guide than anything else.  It is shaped so that the needle rollers are larger than the cage and are allowed to roll while the cage keeps them straight.  If the cage fails (the term "springing a leak" comes to mind) then a few needle rollers can fall out - That's probably what you've found.  The rest of the bearing, although degraded, will continue to work in a weakened state and that might explain why you've not heard anything untoward going on (no screeching, banging or crashing or even hard shifts).

Way up above Al mentioned that Gene Berg used to pack the needles in by hand, holding them in place by grease during assembly to get more in there and some (not all IIRC) bearing clusters could be held in place just by lots of needles and the surrounding parts without the plastic cage.  That technique also made for a slightly stronger rotating mass to needle interface, but not THAT much stronger to justify doing that for street gearboxes (plus you had to either trust or individually measure each roller diameter and THAT was time consuming).

So my guess is there's nothing catastrophic that's happened to your transaxle, but it absolutely needs to be looked at and not driven so you're doing the right thing - especially getting it worked on locally so you can show up with a long face because you can't yet drive it:

That's my son's "Junior Crew Chief", waiting for his electric car to finish charging...

I would love a third or 4th bay in my garage.

So I have to make room for a shop press. So what? It fits down in my basement, plenty of room. I'm luckier than most with space, my garage is 20 x 20 feet, so a lot of stuff is NOT in the garage. I also have my belt sander, drill press, table saw, chop saw, etc. plus tool cabinets and benches my grandfather made(old school with hand tools!). 

I have a 3' tall by 4' long wheeled cart with all my transmission stuff on it: Parts washer, special tools, and lots of hunks of steel to push things on the press. BTW, I've used that press a bunch since the trans. It works phenomenally well for wheel bearing races and other stuff. No more beating things with a hammer to assemble or take apart!

Here is the best thing I bought to help me through the rebuild:

http://www.longenterprises.com...to_gallery/index.htm

This CD was absolutely invaluable!!!! I can't stress that enough. 

I'm into my trans for less than a professional rebuild OR outright purchase with all the shipping versus the price of all the tools and parts I bought. So, I saved money AND gained knowledge. The biggest obstacle was the pinion nut tool I made. You can purchase this, but I made my own.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/fo...ighlight=trans+tools

scroll down, the tools i made are there.

One trouble with a press is that you need, over time, such an array of dowels and punch/push-parts to fit just so, its amazing.  In these cases, its really cool to have  lathe to turn stock down to just the right D.  On the other hand, you would be surprised at what you can find lying around that ends up fitting just right -- sometimes. And I find that in some small job cases my bench vise works as a press.  I do not own an actual press, and have no plans, although if someone were to give me one, I think I could find a place for it.  While working, I had access to a machine shop and a skilled machinist who would bail me out of tough chances now and then "on his lunch hour".  Likewise a softball friend was a  master welder.  Those were the days . . .   He rebuilt U-joints, and even did a set of king and link pin rebushes on my old A coupe.  anyway . . .

In PA, I had a complete over sized machine shop available for my use .... I knew how to run half the machines and bringing a case of cold beer would get me some quick How To, from the best of the best / IF he didn't have the tooling to do a job we would make that tooling...That's an old school machine shop. Since moving here to WV if I need to make anything, it's with a SawZall and BF hammer :~)

... and one can become adept at pounding out bearing races with a hammer and screw driver or punch.  Usually takes mangling the first few to figure it out, tho.

I have also read about using an old ice chest or cooler to ship a transmission. It has the advantage of having handles.

I have also wondered about wrapping the transmission in a trash bag and squirting urethane foam in the container to hold the transmission in place.

Danny Pip: Ah, the Force (the absolute need to DIY) is strong in that one.

Mike  years ago I got a windshield that had been wrapped in a large Hefty bag then filled in and around it with expansion foam.

@Gordon Nichols- I gave my press to a friend when I moved into the townhouse (some serious downsizing was needed!). It gets much more use at Gerry's house, and I can use it any time I want (not that I've needed it for any thing lately). He's a little bit of a drive away (40 minutes) but that's ok. 

Mr. Berg advocated the needle bearing mod for street as well as race transaxles, at first taking them out of earlier bearing cages (the needles were longer so supported the gears better and the newer/replacements are shorter) but that meant disassembling 3 other trans cores to get enough. When those got too hard to find he found where he could buy just the needles in the right length (it took a few years to find the supplier) and offered them in a kit- it is still available- 

http://www.geneberg.com/cat.ph...Parts&cPath=2906

Very few trans builders think it's worthwhile doing- the thought is all the needles stacked together cause more friction being so close together. 

A little reading- http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=12_367_2905

PS- @DannyP- Don't get me wrong, I think it's great that you did it yourself (and between this and re-positioning the centers in your own wheels I worship the ground you walk on!). But having rebuilt several engines over the years and re and re'd just about everything on a VW enough times to build several cars (including taking apart a few transaxles) I know how much work and how much room for error there is (especially when it's been apart before and messed with so you don't know what's supposed to be there), unless you're interested enough to make the investment (time and money) to learn how to do it, leave it to someone who knows. On the Samba occasionally there will be someone with a trans problem who asks "can I fix it myself? I have a full tool box with sockets, wrenches and a hammer and chisel...". My point is, Danny, a transaxle is a hell of a lot more complicated than replacing points, adjusting valves or setting up dual carburetors. If you have to ask "is this something I can do myself?"- you're probably better off taking it to someone. Just sayin'. 

Don't downsize your garage never - ever....

Danny's a badass. 

I know my limits.

Thanks Ed. You ain't so bad yourself, you Suby-installing panel and part-maker!

Dr. Clock wrote: "