New 2,387 BHP

86x94, CB 2289 cam, CB CNC 044 wedge port heads with 44in/37.5ex., cryo'd CB dual valve springs & ti retainers, CB chrome-moly PR's, Schubeck 58 gram composite lifters, Pauter 1.4 rocker arms, 9.3 to 1 compression, 10.4 lb. flywheel, 5.7 Crower ti rods, dual 48 DRLA's with 42mm vents, Mallory adjustable mechanical dist with Pertronix, and 1 3/4" A-1 Muffler "Sidewinder" header & 2 1/2" Dynomax.

RPM/BHP/torque:

2000/042/110
2500/052/110
3000/066/115
3500/087/131
4000/112/147
4500/130/152
5000/155/163
5500/176/168
6000/210/184
6500/218/176
7000/217/163
7500/210/147
8000/192/126

Jake will probably point out that the low end and mid-range are sorta docile, but look at what happens from about 4,500 to 7,500. Va-va-voom, help is just a down-shift away.

I can move the torque curve slightly up in value and down in the RPM band by switching to 1.3 rocker arms and 40mm venturis.
(Message Edited 10/9/2003 3:43:46 PM)

George, I thought my engine was weak with 165 lb/ft of torque at 2500RPM, looks like you are a little behind times........

Its a Type I for sure, heads start to flow at 4000 and cam at 4500, just like my 2332 that made 228 ponies....

I'll take a torque master anyday, any way....

Pauls 2316will spank your pants off in torque- Guaranteed.
If It don't I'll tear it down and build it till it does!

BTW, peak torque at 6K, what the hell is that?????

I'm sure Pat did you a good job, any time I give you Hell its between you and I and has nothing to do with him....
Not bad for a "Type Aftermarket" powerplant.

Good luck with it George, those are impressive #'s. I'm sure you'll
be happy with the on road performance.

Jake, The cam in Georges engine is 272 degrees at .050. The engine has a much broader torque curve than what I was expecting. This is do mostly to the heads. These heads are the wedge port cnc 044 and have awsome low and mid lift flow numbers. As to the heads start to work at 4000 rpms, heads start to work by their flow characteristics of the intake port and the exhaust to intake ratio. In Georges engine, the cam is the determining factor of where the power band is. George has a close ratio five speed gearbox in his car and this engine is going to be ideal for it. With 9.3 compression, George has one hell of a engine that will blow the doors off of pretty much anything that comes around it. I gaurantee that this engine in an 1800 lb car will run in the eleven second bracket at the drags and still be driven werever he wants to go in any climate. I dont want to get in the middle of you and george. You are a friend and valued customer. I just wanted to state some facts.

Pat

Pat, welcome. As long as you're here, I have a question. What are the differences between the 2110cc and the 2160cc engines you build for Henry? Both in performance and reliabilty, and does the cam have to be clearanced on the 2160cc? Thanks for your time. Eddie

Now that was a breath of fresh air. The anger factor was getting a wee out there.

Jim

Agreed.

Pat, good to see you here. Like I said above I'm sure you did a good job in building George's engine. (I'd just like to know how in the world you did so without commiting suicide;-)

The ONLY reason I was giving George a hard time, is because he was not pleased with the torque of the engine I completed a few weeks ago, and he felt that his would do as well as it did.....and it didn't so I had to let him see that...

One question: Were these power numbers with the belt on and with an exhaust system, or was it running open with no belt???

I think with belt, exhaust, and muffler - that's the way we were running it on the dyno last June.

Did not cam the engine for torque but rather for upper midrange to top end power per Pat's recommendation. It seems to have worked pretty well.

I spent four days at CB's shop with Pat last June and got along pretty well with him and his lovely wife Amy.
(Message Edited 10/10/2003 10:01:00 AM)

Eddie, the only difference is 50cc and perhaps the cam and compression ratio, and yes, the cam will have to be clearanced for the crankshaft in both engines.

There have been cases of cams breaking at the clearanced location under extremely heavy loads (very heavy valve springs and high RPM). Any time you weaken a camshaft by reducing the shaft diameter it can flex and/or break, neither of which is a good thing. This is why many high output VW racing engines are built using aftermarket engine cases with a .100" cam centerline drop. This requires a special, adapted cam drive gearset but eliminates the clearance issue.
(Message Edited 10/10/2003 10:33:26 AM)

Eddie, The 2160cc(84x90.5)engine that I build for henry is very reliable. I build this engine with two different flowing heads. The difference between the two heads is about fifteen horsepower. The difference in drivability is a slight loss in lower end torque with the higher flowing head but a greater amount of torque in the mid and upper RPM range. I will offer the newer Wedge style port head to henry soon. This head will gain around twenty horsepower over the base cylinder head. Power differnce between a base 2110 and a base 2160 engine is about 15 horsepower and about twenty foot lbs. of torque. The cam in a 2160cc engine only needs minor clearancing, something you should not have to ever be concerned about.

Pat

Pat, thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I have two more. How much difference is there in price between the two engines set up the same way, and is there any difference in reliability between the two, as per expected milage? thanks again. Eddie

Eddie, If you are buying one of henry's cars, you will need to discuss the difference in price with him. If you are only in the market for the engine, you should give me a call at CB and we can discuss the price and options one on one. The 2110cc engine will have a slightly higher life span than the 2160cc engine. This is due to the higher stress put on the case from the longer stroke of the 2160cc engine. I would not be concerned with the larger engine unless you plan on using the car as your every day car and putting heavy miles on it. I have seen guys get a hundred thousand miles out of a 2160 engine and I have seen guys get a thousand miles out of them. It is all how you take care of the maintenance and if you abuse it excessively.

It would be interesting to compare both Jake's and Pat's motors on
a graph to see the hp/torque curve differance. I've got to say that both engines are really to much for such a little car but of course in America bigger is always better.

J-P

I think I speak for many here in thanking you, Pat, for taking time for our forum and answering some questions. Knowing you are busy, I still would urge you to check in here occasionally and give us your 2 cents worth on new products, or current forum discussions.

We enjoy Jake's sharing of knowledge, especially on TIV matters, and and also John Connely of Aircooled.net and John Steele of JPS Speedster Replicas, who share some advice with us occasionally.

Your connection to Henry at IM and Kirk at Vintage Speedsters serves as a real source of invaluable information as many potential and current owners would enjoy a dialogue with the builder of their proposed or current engine. Even if it's jsut 30 minutes a week, your time here would be mucho appreciated Pat.

Thanks for sharing,
Jim Ward
member
owner Vintage Speedster
(Message Edited 10/10/2003 9:55:47 PM)

You'd really love an avatar, wouldn't you Jim?
Ron

Ron,

Yes, er................... depends on your definition of Avatar? Got an idea for one?

Jim
(Message Edited 10/11/2003 11:45:52 AM)

The avatar I'm thinking of is a picture below your name. Other forums have them.
Ron

Thanks alot Pat, I'll give you a call. Eddie

I have graphs of 75% of my engines on my site and will be updating them all soon and adding 5 new engines to choose from...

It is nice having Pat here....

Even though he and I build engines we are not really competitors and share the same type of knowledge...Since I hardly ever build a TI any more(almost everything is TIV and 356/912 work) and he doesn't build TIVs at all, it works out well.

Hey Jake, When are you gonna come and see as at CB? I will make sure I have some big power on the dyno for you to see. A little more than that T-4 stuff you are used too. Just kidding, hope to hear from you soon.

Pat

Heck, I cannot even leave for a weekend without coming back to a nightmare here.....

I'd like to come see you guys, and if you ever get on this coast come check out my farm.......don't see shops that look like barns out in California....LOL

I might even take you Squirrel huntin' LOL

At the risk of starting another firestorm, here is some new data on my CB 2160 engine. The original data I posted on another thread was for an earlier engine IM installed for another customer. Pat has commented above about these engines.

When I did the earlier posting on another thread, several people commented on the fact that much of the original engine's performance could not be utilized without excessively high RPM. The latest version with CNC round ports has more torque and HP at 5,000 RPM and below. In fact, in this RPM range, it compares very favorably with George's new engine, in both HP and torque. Of course, once you get above this range, George's engine takes off like a screaming eagle!(On my engine, the rev limited will be set at 5,700 RPM, so high RPM results will be academic for me).

In any event, I am pleased with the improvement.

The change looks good Brian. I think that will make it a much more streetable engine. Why are you limiting the rpm to 5700? Just because you set the limiter to, say, 6300, doesn't mean you have to shift at 6300. I think you will miss the 'headroom' you would otherwise have if you limit it to 5700. Just my opinion.

oops, dp

Ron,

Thanks for your input. If you recall, I am a total novice, not even an "experienced amateur" like most folks on this site. Thus, I rely very heavily on Henry at IM and he has it set at 5,700 RPM.(Perhaps he wants his engine to live through the warranty period?)

Seriously, how do you go about determining a safe upper RPM limit for short periods of time? I certainly don't want to destroy a few engines to find out. I don't even know the range of the tachometer, much less the engine!

Brian

Do what Ron Leonard and I did with Bob's car(we tested it before he bought it). Just keep on reving until it stops reving...I think it's called valve float...anyway, once it stops reving, take out your black felt marker and put a line on the tach, then put the cap back on the felt pen, put the pen in a safe place, then finally bring your revs back down. It's always good to try this in each gear, to make sure that the motor stops reving at the same rpm in each gear. Ron and I each took turns doing this with Bob's car to make sure that we had the redline at the correct marked spot. I don't know if Bob will ever rev his motor that high, but if he does the red line is there and he has Ron and I to thank for it. We were happy to help out a fellow replica buddy!
Ron
p.s. I think next time I'd use a red felt marker...you know...the red zone...red line.

Ron (and Ron):

I had no idea I owed you two so much! Just think, here I was a few thousand miles away, buying a car sight unseen, and I instinctively put my trust in two complete strangers to test it out for me. Isn't this a great world we live in?

Just yesterday I said to my brother Darryl, and then to my other brother Darryl, that you two fellas are just the greatest. My engine still stops when I hit the funny little mark you put on that circle shaped thingy on the dash, but that makes it all the more fun. And knowing you two cared so much to take the time to see what my car really could do, well, it makes me feel warm all over.

I also think it's wonderful that you are now helping others with their cars. You guys are just the best.

Larry, AKA Bay Street Bob

Anyone else who would like us to find and mark their redline can send us an email:
Redlinefinders@motorgoesboom.com

Please send in your email early, because we expect to be very busy.

Ron(s)

George, thank you for emailing us so quickly. Yes, we will mark the redline on your new car, but unfortunately, we can't allow you to come along for the ride. We think that you may discover our engineering secrets and then you may also consider yourself a redline expert. Then, it is possible that you would dispute our comments and finding on the forum, and this could lead to nasty, argumentative posts. It could even lead us, the two Ronnies, to change our name to the two Jakes.

Ron(s)

George, my wife and I will be in Vancouver the week of November 2 to test drive my (our) new car. I told Henry that I would test drive it locally because I didn't want to get it dirty, but indicated I really wanted to go to Whistler for a few days. Henry was very understanding, so he suggested that I take your car. I'll try and be really careful, especially with all the rock slides they've had recently.

PS: Ron & Ron, do you think 9,500 RPM max would be ok for break-in on the trip to Whistler?

Ron, if you guys promise not to go within 10 miles of my car at Henry's shop, I will send each of you one of Adian's Master De-lintersthat I had coated with monatomic gold powder.

How about you just let me know when you are in town and I will drop by and you can buy me a coffee? That's got to be cheaper than one of those de-inter thingees. I enjoy meeting other IM owners and putting a face with the name. Same for you George. It would be great to meet you too.

Brian, 9500 is a good rpm for a burn-out, warm up (boy, is that an oxymoron, or what?) Ron and I usually like to put the rear wheels in some water, light them up and keep the tach at around 9500 to warm the motor up before we drive it.
Seriously Brian, Whistler already has snow. The road is very congested and usually has construction. Manning park is the way to go, but either route would be great if it's on the weekend. Maybe the two Rons and Bruce could join you.
Ron, Bruce are you up for it?

Ron

We'll be in Vancouver at IM on Nov 3,Monday morning, and then on to Whistler that afternoon. We'll be back in Vancouver on Wednesday and fly home on Thursday. Love to see you guys, but wife has plans, except for time at IM on Monday AM or Wednesday PM? Stop by if you have time.

Brian, Henry and George have both asked Ron and I to set the redline on George's new car. By the time you arrive, it will be ready to go. Just don't go above the line on the tach. We are actually thinking that George's might be the first engine we set redline on that we can get above 10,000 rpm.

Henry has asked us to set the red line on your car too Brian! Now that's going the extra mile for your customers!

Engine hunting Ron.

I'm in. Ron or Bruce say when it works for you if you are going. I can make either time. I won't likely be driving my Roadster with the new engine by then, but that's OK.

Brian:

Be very careful. These two guys are really slick. If one of them casually suggests a short drive over the Cambie Street Bridge, run.

Bob
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