New 550 build - kitman

@edsnova posted:

Yep. They're 3-inch round on yours I think. That's how Chuck Beck envisioned as simplified 550 chassis. But yours is different from a Beck in that the beam bolts in. Beck (and Thunder Ranch) welded that stuff in.

FWIW, if your tubing is of sufficient thickness and made out of the right sort of steel, it should be plenty stiff. What's your wall thickness?

The frame seems pretty strong as is, but I need it to pass a torsional stiffness test for registration here, so I'm going to add a fair few sections for extra bracing. I'd seen the Vintage Motorcars chassis a while back, and like the idea of the "intrusion" bars through the sill area. Should come in handy if I'm ever t-boned by a Lotus 7 or a kid on a scooter.

I don't think anyone from Kitman had even attempted to sit their chassis in their body. Unfortunately, the options for bringing a 550 into Australia these days are extremely limited. Kitman is the best/only option unless you find a very old Beck and bring it in as a finished car, which would be ridiculously expensive.

We've exported several kits to Australia.

The pictured fuel tank support was designed to be a secondary bond and installs after the chassis in inserted.  Fortunately they knew enough to leave the lower part of the dash out so you didn't have to cut it out, but as said above this points back to parts being made by someone who does not understand the build process.  Fortunately that is all you had to cut out and it can easily be replaced.  Now, unfortunately, the cowl hoop and inner front fender wells and the front stiffener are easier to put in when the car is upside down so you aren't trying to tab over your head and fight gravity.  You may consider getting some foam blocks or old mattresses and a few buddies and flipping it on its head when installing this pieces.

@chines1 posted:

We've exported several kits to Australia.

I did actually look into bringing in one of yours or the Vintage Motorcars kits, and even spoke to Greg about it a couple of years ago. He suggested tracking down an early Beck might be a better idea. Covid pricing put paid to that as well.

There's a few bureaucratic hoops to jump through here for import as those partial kits are not classified as a car or parts apparently, so you have to be careful that they don't get stuck at customs because some "official" isn't happy with your paperwork.

Getting them registered, legally, is also a process, and modifications would be required for local regulations, which may or may not have been more difficult with a partially assembled kit.

All of those issues aside, the main hurdle for me though was cost. With exchange rates, shipping, import duty, goods and services tax etc etc, it would probably have cost me about 60k Australian to get one of those kits here. I had actually given up on ever owning a 550 a couple of years back, and then this kit popped up for sale locally for less than half of that amount. I should add, I can see where the extra dollars go in the Beck and VM cars 👍

Understood. We are not cheap nor fast.

I have 2 clients who ship containers of circle track and hot rod parts Indiana to Melbourne every few months. They have pre-cleared all of my kit shipments  as “parts” and thus far it has been smooth sailing. One of them even imported a turn key build, but wound up putting it on club registration to avoid having to make a bunch of changes he didn’t like.

Working out where the chassis should sit inside the bodywork. There's a straight edge clamped across the beam to give me a perpendicular reference for the spindle.

I'm going to slide the body back another 20mm or so I think. Then I can start looking at where the drivetrain should be located.

That's a 175/70/15 piece of MDF btw...

Looks like the body does have to go back slightly, but keep in mind that your most common interference spot is the area around 10 o'clock so you may want to mock up your inner front wheel wells and make sure you don't hit there.  Of course you can always change their shape and bubble them slightly if needed too, so if your biggest co=cern is having the wheel centered its he body perfectly, then set that up and modify your wheel wells to accommodate. Keep in mind also that you are changing the position of the rear wheels in the clamshell IF you stick with the stock suspension and stock mounting points.  If you do wind up fabricating your own rear suspension then that is a moot point as you'll set them where needed during mock-up.

Thanks Carey, "luckily" I have to fabricate the front of the inner guards myself, they don't come with the kit for some reason 🤷‍♂️😄, so I'll bear in mind the 10 o'clock point you mentioned.

As you pointed out, I'm building the rear suspension from scratch, so I'll work backwards from where I want the rear wheel to sit in relation to the wheelarch in the clamshell and position the drivetrain accordingly. The Subaru transaxle outputs are 20mm forwards of the VW unit by comparison, so I would have had to relocate engine mounts anyway, even if they worked as is.

Had to trim a little bit off the front frame horns to allow it to slide further into the front of the body, but I reckon this is looking a lot better. The curve of wheelarch front to back isn't symmetrical, so centering the spindle on the highest point of the opening is about as good as I can get it

Now to get the clamshell to fit...

Today's instalment of "things that don't fit like they should" 😄

The clamshell fouls the bodywork at the join, the lowermost edge, the rest of the two profiles match nicely from what I can see. I'm assuming it came out of the mold a bit early and shrunk? Anyhow, I'm thinking a couple of relief cuts where indicated and then some fibreglass repairs after opening it up a little bit. It needs to be about 30mm wider, the body measures 1540 externally at that point, the clamshell about 1510

You know, most of us who have had our cars partially or completely built by others are gobsmacked by those of you who can take a pile of ill-fitting parts and transform them into beautiful cars.  Good on ya, mate!

I look forward to following this to completion.

I don't know if this will make you feel any better, but all of us who have built a CMC or Street Beast car (Thunder Ranch, too) in years past have gone through the same dog and pony show and it didn't matter if you were building a Speedster or a '32 Hot Rod.  

They sold you a great line about how easy it would be to assemble their kits, and when you got one delivered, you found that half of the parts ordered were "on backorder" and, when you finally got them delivered after weeks or months (or never), NOTHING FIT!  Everything had to be modified!  

So we all became designers, fabricators and home builders of our kits, too.  Their advertised "40 hours to build", in reality typically exceeded 400 hours spread out over years.  That's why we STILL see the occasional unfinished kit for sale.  The lucky ones were those who bought their kit and never got around to building it until they sold it, decades later.  I bought one of those, too, and Alan Merklin finished it in a couple of months.

Factory Five was aware of all that from other kit makers and were determined NOT to go that route and their kits are complete and far easier to assemble - Everything delivered fits!  How novel!

So you're not alone on here, and we'll offer what help we can on your fabrication journey, just ask.  

Here's my later CMC that took 7 years to finish (work and life got in the way a lot)

2,110 engine, burgundy interior, gas heater and other goodies:

On my CMC I got all the parts with the shipment and they all fit.

Well then, you were one of the lucky ones who didn't ask to be included in the Florida AG's class action suit.

https://www.miaminewtimes.com/...y-background-6378722

I think Mike and I (Nov 1988) were earlier buyers.  I did have some items on BO.  Must have gotten 5 front turn signal lights before I got a pair that matched.  Actually, got an extra hood and engine lid because you could see every fiberglass strand thru the black gel coat.  Doors were refitted but not very well.  No scribe marks to assist with drilling and cutting either. CMC had NO 800 #, no email, no cell phones then so hard to contact them (Couldn't use govt military phones for personal business).

Other than really thick fiberglass in some places where I had to mount stuff (so I had to grind out extra thickness), everything seemed to fit well.

My CMC order was 1983.

@Lane Anderson posted:

You know, most of us who have had our cars partially or completely built by others are gobsmacked by those of you who can take a pile of ill-fitting parts and transform them into beautiful cars.  Good on ya, mate!

I look forward to following this to completion.

What leaves me gobsmacked is that stuff is delivered in this condition. It's indefensible.

@Stan Galat posted:

What leaves me gobsmacked is that stuff is delivered in this condition. It's indefensible.

This should tell all potential buyers of Kitman products to stay away. No QC, no support, no manual, no parts available to complete.

My first speedster, an 80s Intermeccanica, had some terrible fitting doors, and gaps were off overall. I had to dice and splice the doors to get perfect gaps as well as the engine and decklid. The fiberglass was wavy and I had to add material in spots to get it nice and flat prior to paint. I own an early C1 corvette, and the factory gaps are inconsistent and fiberglass is wavy as hell. It’s part of the game, especially if you are dealing with old fiberglass or not so modern molds and glassing procedures. Don’t fret, with a little creative surgery you will get it fitting nice.

@Lane Anderson posted:

You know, most of us who have had our cars partially or completely built by others are gobsmacked by those of you who can take a pile of ill-fitting parts and transform them into beautiful cars.  Good on ya, mate!

I look forward to following this to completion.

Thanks, but you may be a bit quick out of the blocks there 😄

I look forward to following this to completion as well 😄

Luckily there's groups like this one, for me to turn to in my hour of need 😬

@550aus

Do you guys see many Factory five Cobras in Australia?  Often, here in America, there are support groups who can offer "where to get this or that" suggestions, if not good old fashioned help.  If you have been building other cars before this I would suspect you already have your preferred sources.  

All of my old VW go-to sources near me have gone away, mostly to retirement.  There is one remaining shop recommended by local VW folks - The techs there are young but really know their stuff and while they tend to drive GTI turbos, they really know Aircooled engines, too and are kept busy by the Beetle and Bus crowd.

@Gordon Nichols posted:

@550aus

Do you guys see many Factory five Cobras in Australia?  Often, here in America, there are support groups who can offer "where to get this or that" suggestions, if not good old fashioned help.  If you have been building other cars before this I would suspect you already have your preferred sources.  

All of my old VW go-to sources near me have gone away, mostly to retirement.  There is one remaining shop recommended by local VW folks - The techs there are young but really know their stuff and while they tend to drive GTI turbos, they really know Aircooled engines, too and are kept busy by the Beetle and Bus crowd.

I never really got into the Cobra thing. I like the original 289 / AC Ace shape, not so much the flared guard look.

There's a few guys over here building Speedsters who've been helpful. There's no-one building a Spyder that I know of, and definitely no-one doing what I'm doing.

There won't be much VW in this thing, mainly just the front suspension and steering. I do have a mate who's a great mechanic and an old car enthusiast, and another who runs a large engineering shop, so I'm covered on those fronts.

I think the Internet has helped to destroy the planet, but it is useful for car enthusiasts 😄

@Gordon Nichols posted:

Do you guys see many Factory five Cobras in Australia?  Often, here in America, there are support groups who can offer "where to get this or that" suggestions, if not good old fashioned help.

This is not the first or second time Gordon has mentioned Factory Five interchangeably with the entire Cobra universe.

The Factory Five Mk4 Roadster is the world’s best-selling replica of all time. It is designed to accurately reproduce the looks of the 427 Shelby Cobra, keeping its essence intact while using more modern parts. They're not considered "accurate" to people who care about such things. If you hop over to eBay and watch, they bring considerably less than Cobras from a lot of other manufacturers. Half, in most cases.

There are zillions of them and they're a very well-done kit. But talk to a guy with one of the others -- Backdraft, Superformance, and/or especially Kirkham Motorsports -- and they'll look down their nose and sniff at the "little plastic Mustang".

I know they're a Massachusetts company, and I know you are a Massachusetts guy, Gordon. Everybody knows from watching my gyrations over 25 years that I personally couldn't care less if a replica is "authentic" or not -- but it does matter to some people.

I'm not trying to be pedantic, but it's a thing. "Cobra" doesn't automatically mean "Factory Five".

@550aus posted:

Today's instalment of "things that don't fit like they should" 😄

The clamshell fouls the bodywork at the join, the lowermost edge, the rest of the two profiles match nicely from what I can see. I'm assuming it came out of the mold a bit early and shrunk? Anyhow, I'm thinking a couple of relief cuts where indicated and then some fibreglass repairs after opening it up a little bit. It needs to be about 30mm wider, the body measures 1540 externally at that point, the clamshell about 1510

If I were correcting this issue:

I would fit my doors because a change in the main body shape will change the shape of the door opening, thus I'd have my doors fit and lined up at the A pilar gap and see if adjustment of the rear body action can improve or hamper the B pilar fitment.

Based on where your frame rails are sitting, properly cupped int he shaped part of the body, it appears to me that the shrinkage occurred int he clamshell, either the stiffener and they pulled the body in to meet it when installing it, or in the shell itself, hard to tell.

Once I verified door fitment, and assuming I still needed to widen he clamshell, I would split the inner stiffener in 4-6 spots and pull the wings out to match the body, glassing the stiffener back to hold it in the proper place.

Also, while doing this, I would make sure that the face of the stiffener a the bottom, where your latch p[ins will attach, it perpendicular tot he center line of the car, and if  not I;d cut them loose, rotate them to be perpendicular, and regales them.  It is really hard to tell in the photos but they looked angled slightly, and if they are then it will hold the latch pins at an angle and you will have a VERY hard time getting the red latches to work properly.

Well, so far so good. A few cuts to repair, but it seems to fit nicely now. Obviously a bit of shaping required to get the gaps perfect, but I was expecting that.

Looks great!

And the shop is pretty cool, too!

Some more eyeball engineering. Seeing as I have, within reason, the ability to place the rear wheel where it looks best, I've ended up with this. One pic with the wheel a tad higher in the wheelarch. The curve of the wheelarch isn't particularly uniform, so I had to pick a happy medium between centering the wheel in the arch and having the radius match the wheel

The wheelbase ends up being about 2190mm which is about 30mm more than a Beck I believe?

The "wheel" seems a bit large, but that could just be because the color makes it stand out so much.  I think the bottom picture looks best.

At one time, "somebody in Germany"" thought this is how it is supposed to look:

Personally, I'd move your axle forward a smidge (maybe even 30mm); if you have room for your drivetrain between the axle and the cockpit firewall.

Sometimes looking back (like at the picture) shows the way forward.  On the other hand, art is in the eye of the beholder.  Your project is personally yours to behold.  Build it for your eyes.

So many choices, so lucky to be you.

Yup, Mark is right. It looks better a touch(30mm?) forward.

FYI, all replicas are about 50mm longer than the original wheelbase(all in the door area) to fit the larger drivers we all are today.

People have been getting taller on average forever. It really "hits" you when you go into old buildings, such as Washington's Headquarters in Newburgh NY. We'd all hit our heads on the doorways in there. I went when I was a kid so it wasn't a problem!

Cool shop and cart ,

Can you get some black spray paint  and add  a "tire" to your  plywood  "tire and rim"

That might give a better view of how  it will sit ....

and if you had some gray/silver  paint a mock up rim

Thanks guys, the mockup wheel is the same diameter as the 185/70/15's I've read are the preferred size for these things on the rear. It does look decieving though as one sheet of mdf.

I'll get a bit of colour on it, and see how that looks.

I think you're very much in the ballpark.

Maybe draw (or tape) a line from the front axle to the rear and see where it falls in relation to the door bottom and the clamshell seam. Compare that to other 550s, real and replica.

Ok, so I made the wheel a bit more realistic, (no, I'm not painting the bodywork 😄 )

I'm still leaning towards the longer wheelbase of 2190 (pic 1) rather than the 2160 (pic 2). Given that I have to redo engine mounts etc, and have heaps of room fore and aft for components, is there any downside I haven't thought of to the slightly longer wheelbase? I've compared it to the advertised Beck wheelbase of 2160, but I'm well aware it's a different chassis and body.

I'm with you, @550aus.  The first picture looks better to me.  The wheel's center point directly under the wheel arch's center point satisfies my OCD.

I don't think it's going to matter all that much, and I agree with Lane- first pic looks better.

Isn't the position of the back torsion tube going to establish where the wheel falls?

I know you can mount the engine/transaxle anywhere you want on the frame, but unless you're going to do custom length spring-plates, doesn't the tube locate where everything lands?

I agree -- if you can, I'd scoot everything back (wheels, engine, torsion tube). Any extra real estate in the cabin is extra real estate in the cabin.

I believe it will be all custom suspension, so custom trailing arm length is open.

Spyders have custom length trailing arms whether they are full custom(a la Vintage coilover) or attach to OE spring plates(a la Beck or TR).

@550aus Yes, old aircooled wheelbase is 2160.  We stretched that to 2180 when we added the Subaru option, to get enough clearance between the harmonic balancer and the torsion bar to change a belt without dropping the motor.

Thanks guys, 2190 it is.

Next step is to repair the slices I put in the clamshell bracing, then start test fitting all the internal body panels before I start adding/subtracting extra framework.

I haven't permanently bonded the chassis into the bodywork, I'll leave that till I know it doesn't have to come out again