^^^ THAT!
That last paragraph would certainly be enough to discourage me.
Just to add to the fray: if you purchase a vehicle from a private party in OR out of the state of California you will be charged your local sales tax by the DMV when you first register it in your home town.
Trust me…I’ve done it twice over the past few years to the tune of several thousand dollars total. And make sure you do it within ten days of getting the vehicle into California or the fees start to add up.
It's the same here in Jelly Bean Pritzger's "Worker's Paradise" (The People's Republic of Illinois). To register your car, truck, trailer, RV, boat (oh yeah, boat), or motorcycle for the first time is to pay your sales tax. We pay sales tax on USED vehicles.
We're supposed to get a credit for out-of-state sales taxes paid in other states. Good luck with that.
There are no shortage of people setting up LLCs in Montana and purchasing and registering their vehicles there. Montana has no sales tax and a one-time permanent registration fee on vehicles. One (former) friend with money did just that, and ended up buying 5000 acres of wheat ground in the golden triangle, he liked having a state government off his back so well. He's got another couple of years here at CAT, then he'll sell the entire setup here and move out there - but in the meantime, he's rolling everything he's got on Montana plates.
I see a lot of cars registered Montana for that very reason.
When someone from out of state pays Indiana sales tax you do get a form ST108 that shows the tax you paid and your home state is supposed to credit that off of your own state's taxes, and charge you the difference or say "thank you" for the overage, but as Stan said, good luck with that.
@Stan Galat posted:... Tere are no shortage of people setting up LLCs in Montana and purchasing and registering their vehicles there.
Offhand, do you know how much something like that LLC would cost? I was just wondering if it would be beneficial for a Joe six pack like me, that is putting everything extra I have into the purchase of a Spyder.
Thanks
@americanworkmule posted:Offhand, do you know how much something like that LLC would cost? I was just wondering if it would be beneficial for a Joe six pack like me, that is putting everything extra I have into the purchase of a Spyder.
Thanks
No clue. Sorry.
Everyone I know that has done it uses Bennett Law Offices. It's around $1000 initial set up plus a yearly maintenance fee of a few hundred, and then a "per vehicle" process fee also around a couple hundred.
It's the same in NY state. I bought my Cayman from California and had it shipped two years ago.
The NY DMV was completely confused that I didn't pay sales tax to California, my local office is apparently only used to in-state sales. Most Cali cars come with a plate if they are sold with time left, the registration goes with the car. Not so in NY, registration/plates get transferred to different cars all the time.
I paid my local county tax of 8% on the vehicle to NY state.
This happens EVERY time a vehicle is sold and registered in NY, which is really annoying. IMHO a car should only be taxed once when it is new.
i heard that the CA cops(CHP) are wise to the Montana scheme..
Honestly, Joel taxes a side I think I should still do the shake down and break-in for you before you have it shipped!
@barncobob posted:i heard that the CA cops(CHP) are wise to the Montana scheme..
We are, or at least I am, but I never cared and I'm fairly certain most of them do know and they don't care either. Collecting sales taxes on exotic/expensive cars wasn't my job. People who buy yachts do the same thing. They register them in Panama or some other country but they keep them in their ports in Florida or in Southern California and they never pay taxes on them.
I don't agree with paying sales taxes on cars because of the high cost of the car. If the state wants money from that sale they should just add a one time new car registration fee. And I'm with Danny P on the whole collecting sales taxes every time a car is sold. It's a load of crapola.
If I buy a $10K car and I pay my sales taxes on it but I sell it after only making 3 payments of $300 then I didn't get $10K worth of use for it and my sales taxes should be returned to me. Or, just like they do with a lease, they should collect some taxes on each payment. The new owner buys it from me and pays me $10K for the car he also pays sales taxes on the whole amount and the cycle continues every time the car is sold. The state could theoretically collect sales taxes on the $10K sale seven different times and that is a whole truck load BS, even if the truck is registered in Montana.
LLC annual fees vary widely state to state. One can do the set up yourself, but most hire attorneys. CA, of course is pretty pricey. This little side shuffle in Montana is new news to me. DE is also a sales tax free state, although if they make exceptions for cars, new or used, I do not know.
Our LLC was established in Florida for $500 by our accountant. We have no other fees, annual or otherwise.
$1,000 plus annual fees....wow!
LLCs are cheap to set up in the US in most states, and most also let you do it with a nominee resident agent, hiding the identity of the beneficial owner. Plenty of folks do this to avoid taxes one way or another, and if you structure things using other jurisdictions like Panama, Bermuda and the Virgin Islands you can save a lot of dough but imho it's gotten very much out of hand, leaving the rest of us suckers to pay the taxes that they avoid.
Taxes are the price we pay for civilization, fellas.
Yes you can set up an LLC easily and cheaply, however in the case of Montana registration I believe you have to use their more expensive services as they set you up with an address in Montana that works for their paperwork and processes.
Your LLc will also have to file taxes, both state and Federal, even if it doesn't do anything (and it's registering vehicles, so it's doing something) and anual business registration fees. It will be complicated enough that you'll probably need accounting services, so in the end there's a cost. It ain't completely free.
This is one of those cases where if you're dropping a 100K plus on cars it makes sense and you can save a wad of cash. However, if you're a poor slob buying a clapped out Toyota for four grand it doesn't and you wind up paying a much higher percentage of your income when you can least afford it. It's part of how our current system makes it way harder to make good financial decisions the fewer financial resources you have...which is when you'd most benefit from being able to do those things.
I guess that's true. Our accountant does have to file taxes re: the LLC.
Exactly, @JMM (Michael). I wouldn't do it just to buy and register one or two cars.
If you have a SMALL business, it makes sense sometimes to do an LLC. This protects all of your OTHER assets(the ones you need to live) if the business gets sued.
LLCs are considered pass-through entities. Yes, you must file a tax return, but the key feature here is the generation of a K-1 form for each of the partners. The LLC pays no tax. This K-1 form transfers the taxable activity of the LLC, as if it were an individual, out to the partners so they must declare said activity (if any) on their personal tax returns. Complicating factor: there would be two forms to file: on for the Feds (form 1065) and one for the state in which the LLC is incorporated. If the LLC in fact makes money, then depending on how much money, each partner would have file a return in that state (or states) in which that money was made. With a couple of hundred $$ in fees for the right versions of TurboTax and a decent desk top computer, all this gets done pretty simply. Ask me how I know. Sounds like this Wyoming nonsense, if done simply for car registration, and no actual money making activities are included, a lot of the aforementioned state tax returns would go by the boards. Are we having fun yet??
@DannyP posted:Exactly, @JMM (Michael). I wouldn't do it just to buy and register one or two cars.
If you have a SMALL business, it makes sense sometimes to do an LLC. This protects all of your OTHER assets(the ones you need to live) if the business gets sued.
There is considerably less liability protection in an S-corp or LLC than everybody thinks. If you screw up badly, a decent lawyer is going to sue the principles of whatever business structure you construct. There is no "perfect".
Regarding the Montana LLCs - you have to own more than a half-dozen collectables for it to be worth the effort.
Regarding @edsnova's observation that taxes are the freight of civilization, I agree with the principle, if not with the practice. I guess I feel that the bulk of the taxes I'm presently paying are contributing, not to the advancement of civilization, but to its decline. The higher the marginal tax rate goes in my state, the steeper the slide toward the abyss. We're very near a tipping point.
@Stan Galat posted:Regarding @edsnova's observation that taxes are the freight of civilization, I agree with the principle, if not with the practice. I guess I feel that the bulk of the taxes I'm presently paying are contributing, not to the advancement of civilization, but to its decline. The higher the marginal tax rate goes in my state, the steeper the slide toward the abyss. We're very near a tipping point.
My issue with that point is the same. It seems the more taxes I, and others like me pay, the less work others do. Hence the current situation we're in now. During COVID California paid additional monies above and beyond what the Feds were paying and even though that has expired they can't get anyone to work now. Apparently that is the same in other states as well.
California has a tax surplus and the governor wants to pay for transportation, medical bills, food and housing for people who want to terminate unwanted pregnancies if they live in states where they aren't allowed. They are spending money to house the homeless by building housing units. But because it's the government doing the work each housing unit, the size of a small apartment costs $837,000. Some projects have kept the costs down somewhat and are only spending $700,000 per unit. Thank goodness for thriftiness.
There are two ways to make your money go further; spend more wisely or make more money. For the masses that might mean get a second job or a side hustle if you have a marketable skill. Unfortunately our system of government has no idea what spending more wisely is all about. All they know is tax, tax, tax, tax, and tax some more. It's no wonder the people are tired and have found ways to pay less, even if it's not all above board.
Please, enough with this off topic tax discussion.
Great spec on the car, Joel!
Thank-you. I can't wait to see it come together and finally get it and drive it.
I also have to say that Carey and the team at Special Editions have been great. They are very helpful, responsive, knowledgeable and understanding. They really know what they are doing when it comes to building a car like this.
Joel
@Joel Roth posted:Please, enough with this off topic tax discussion.
Fair enough. It was a late-night, knee-jerk response, and I'm sorry.
Your car will be amazing.
I’ve incorporated LLC’s in two states; CO and NV. I filed both for a nominal fee with forms available online. One “sticking point” no one has mentioned is that if the LLC doesn’t show a profit in 3 (5?) years, you’ll get a letter asking you to come explain your “business” to the state tax commission.
I agree with the previous post that doubted its usefulness to register one vehicle. AFAIK, you could do the same thing in MT with a Mailbox, etc. address, but I think you have to do the original registration in person. When I registered my first BMW 2002 in MT (wouldn’t pass smog in CO) I was working with a guy who lived in Missoula so he did it for me.
Please, no more tax discussion. This is the second time I am asking.
I for one cannot wait for Joel’s car to be done either!! Don’t worry I will take plenty of pictures and documentation of the Shake Down and Break-In. I will even get some Video of the event!
Yes. Let's get back to discussing and drooling over Joel's new coupe build.
We know taxes are inevitable, but we are trying to postpone the second part of that equation.
Let's enjoy our speedsters - while we can.
C'mon guys, Joel is new to our madness and hasn't gotten used to our inability to avoid the temptation of "SQUIRREL!!!" moments. Let's give him a break and focus on the car for a bit, shall we?
Let's not tax his patience, fellas. Sorry, Joel, from one coupe guy to another.
Look, I understand getting off topic now and then and have no problem with it. But, at some point in time people need to realize that its enough and shut it down. That's my problem with the tax discussion. It went on far too long.
You might want to do like Ed did and get a private site where he includes all his data just for his build that he links to from this site to avoid this type of drift in the conversation.
Sorry, if it is too taxing on you .
U need a thin skin here....be patient,,it"ll get better
I think he means you need a THICK skin, Joel. Otherwise I agree with him.
IaMnot-Ray. Nor, am IaM-Taxed. But IaM-Vexed at some people on this site.
One of the issues on a forum with such easy going rules (and where so many of us have met and consider each other 'friends') is, yes, the thread drift can sometimes get a little 'out of hand'. I was sure I had started talking about pie as a deflection (it usually works and then we get back on track) but it either got deleted or I forgot to post it and closed the page- oh well...
What I did want to ask you- I had asked a page or so ago about wheel/tire sizes and you replied it wasn't finalized yet, or still up in the air (or something to that effect)- does Carey have an idea of what he's hoping might fit under those fenders?
We do not know yet what wheel/tire size will fit. Carey first needs to determine whether we can use the Porsche 911 suspension in the car. To do that, he needs the chaise back in the shop. My chaise is done and should be in the shop shortly. Even though my body in not done, Carey told me they would use another Coupe body to test fit with my chaise and the suspension components.
@Joel Roth posted:We do not know yet what wheel/tire size will fit. Carey first needs to determine whether we can use the Porsche 911 suspension in the car. To do that, he needs the chaise back in the shop. My chaise is done and should be in the shop shortly. Even though my body in not done, Carey told me they would use another Coupe body to test fit with my chaise and the suspension components.
Who needs a chaise in a car? 
Maybe you are planning on napping in it? Chassis
No, my car will have a chaise in it so I can take the car on road trips and sleep in it. Otherwise, it would be too taxing.