Luke- now that you have more tangible goals there's something to work to. With a 4 speed and stock (or fairly evenly spaced) gears you will need approx 160 hp to achieve low 14 second quarter mile times in an 1800 lb car. A 2 liter will have to rev to 6500rpm to achieve this power output, but a 2275 or 2332 at 6000rpm would make the target hp and and have a broader, more driveable torque curve. A transaxle with stock gears and a 4.125 will give you almost exactly 6000rpm at 120 mph, and be very inexpensive to build. You might want to consider where the 3000-4000rpm cruising range will be for gearing; for what I've suggested it's about 60-80 mph. For a 3.88/.89 combo that range is about 64-85 mph, with 6000rpm being approx 128mph. A .93 4th would be closer to what you want.
To expand on what I said last night- a trans with the gearing you suggested will be more fun to drive (longer 1st and 2nd) but will slow the 1/4 mile time slightly (1/4-1/2 second). I suggested the 4.125/stock gears box because it's readily available (VW made millions of them) and I know that it would produce a low 14/high 13 second time with 160hp. Here is a 2275 build that produces the power I think you're looking for- http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=265227&highlight=
The interesting thing is the torque curve; this would be one very driveable motor! And this motor is big enough that with some bigger valved heads and larger carbs (44mm Webers or 45mm Dels) the torque #'s wouldn't change much and there'd be another 10 or more hp.
The interesting thing is the torque curve; this would be one very driveable motor! And this motor is big enough that with some bigger valved heads and larger carbs (44mm Webers or 45mm Dels) the torque #'s wouldn't change much and there'd be another 10 or more hp.
Luke and Mat,
I just completed my speedster chassis. It has a 915 five speed gear box and a 2276 engine. The 5 speed is insane, I used the stock shifter and it shifts sooooooooo smooooooooth. The 2276 sits at around 3K on the freeway going with traffic at around 70-75 mph. Then without down shifting, I squeeze the right pedal down and up to 100 in a flash. Even at 100 the engine is still well below the redline...... You guys are going to realy enjoy the five speeds....
I just completed my speedster chassis. It has a 915 five speed gear box and a 2276 engine. The 5 speed is insane, I used the stock shifter and it shifts sooooooooo smooooooooth. The 2276 sits at around 3K on the freeway going with traffic at around 70-75 mph. Then without down shifting, I squeeze the right pedal down and up to 100 in a flash. Even at 100 the engine is still well below the redline...... You guys are going to realy enjoy the five speeds....
Dearest Vincent,
It pains me to hear of your distress. Please, pray tell, what is the cause of your consternation?
Your Most Hmbl & Obt Svt,
L.N.
It pains me to hear of your distress. Please, pray tell, what is the cause of your consternation?
Your Most Hmbl & Obt Svt,
L.N.
Alan-
WOW. I had planned a lengthy and pithy missive in response, but that was before I saw this morning
WOW. I had planned a lengthy and pithy missive in response, but that was before I saw this morning
Luke- I never said it would be cheap.....
All this talk of hypothetical 150 mph speedsters is funny. Angela was making a point more figurative than literal regarding horsepower and aerodynamics. I don't care if you have the star-ship Enterprise's warp-drive under the deck-lid of your respective speedster-- after about 120 mph or so, the front end is gonna' get light enough to reach any thinking man's "pucker-point".
Additionally, I'll eat my hat if any 2007 Type 1 makes a legitimate 200 hp at something under 7000 RPM. I've got a Chico-built 2332 that set me back about 10 large back in '08-- it made 201 hp at 6000 RPM, and needed 10:1 to get to it. A legitimate and verifiable 200 hp air-cooled flat 4 is not easy or inexpensive proposition.
Fortunately for Luke, his parameters don't require 200 hp. Allen is right, 160 or so would do it. Unfortunately, getting a reliable 160 h/p from a builder is going to cost every bit of $7K to do right.
You can't choose gear-set until you have the torque-curve of your engine ironed out. A 4 speed with longer legs would be pleasant if you have the engine to pull it-- if you don't, a 5 speed with closer ratios is worth every bit of what it costs. A moderate engine and an expensive 5-speed is cheaper in total than a King-Kong mill and a long-legged 4 speed (Terry Nuckels has the former, I've got the latter). Regardless, almost all VW transaxle builders want to put a drag-race gear-set in every box they put together. The gears are not very much fun on the street. Since you asked... I wouldn't put either of the gear-sets you proposed in a speedster-- the final drive is too tall.
What Danny Pip proposes is actually about perfect in terms of bang-for-the-buck. Properly built and tuned, it'll make great power reliably, for something short of stupid-money. The transaxle is all stock gears, nicely spaced with the 3.44. If the engine can pull a .89/3.44 it's a great combination. I needed more, and I've paid dearly.
You asked for opinions. Your mileage may vary.
Additionally, I'll eat my hat if any 2007 Type 1 makes a legitimate 200 hp at something under 7000 RPM. I've got a Chico-built 2332 that set me back about 10 large back in '08-- it made 201 hp at 6000 RPM, and needed 10:1 to get to it. A legitimate and verifiable 200 hp air-cooled flat 4 is not easy or inexpensive proposition.
Fortunately for Luke, his parameters don't require 200 hp. Allen is right, 160 or so would do it. Unfortunately, getting a reliable 160 h/p from a builder is going to cost every bit of $7K to do right.
You can't choose gear-set until you have the torque-curve of your engine ironed out. A 4 speed with longer legs would be pleasant if you have the engine to pull it-- if you don't, a 5 speed with closer ratios is worth every bit of what it costs. A moderate engine and an expensive 5-speed is cheaper in total than a King-Kong mill and a long-legged 4 speed (Terry Nuckels has the former, I've got the latter). Regardless, almost all VW transaxle builders want to put a drag-race gear-set in every box they put together. The gears are not very much fun on the street. Since you asked... I wouldn't put either of the gear-sets you proposed in a speedster-- the final drive is too tall.
What Danny Pip proposes is actually about perfect in terms of bang-for-the-buck. Properly built and tuned, it'll make great power reliably, for something short of stupid-money. The transaxle is all stock gears, nicely spaced with the 3.44. If the engine can pull a .89/3.44 it's a great combination. I needed more, and I've paid dearly.
You asked for opinions. Your mileage may vary.
Stan-
Thank you so much for the candor of your unvarnished opinion. There's a lot to digest in your few words, but on first reading, it seems that you have grabbed the essence of the thing. I am not asking for false validation of my un-tried opinion. I'm just a private, running stuff up the flagpole, looking to see if any of the generals salute. I'll continue to dig in to what you (and the others) have said on the subject, and continue to ask impertinent questions. I hope you all will continue to patiently answer them.
-Luke
Thank you so much for the candor of your unvarnished opinion. There's a lot to digest in your few words, but on first reading, it seems that you have grabbed the essence of the thing. I am not asking for false validation of my un-tried opinion. I'm just a private, running stuff up the flagpole, looking to see if any of the generals salute. I'll continue to dig in to what you (and the others) have said on the subject, and continue to ask impertinent questions. I hope you all will continue to patiently answer them.
-Luke
Luke- Another factor that hasn't been discussed is car weight; I'm of the understanding that most speedsters weigh in around 1800 lbs or so (without driver). Looking at those Beck specs and performance figures makes me wonder; I once upon a time ran a street bug that ran 14.6's, but with a 1750 that revved to 6500 with power it took a 4.37 r&p and short 3rd and 4th gears to do it. What sucked was a top cruising speed of 55mph! It might be possible, but getting an 1800 lb car with a 3.875 r&p and 125hp into the 14's with decent cruising gears; I don't know.....
I know the big motor sounds expensive, but that's what it takes to make the power you're asking for. As Stan said, for a 2007 to hit any where near the 200hp mark that sucker will have to hit 7000 rpm. A bigger motor you don't have to wind up so high.
And big, high hp motors are expensive. Stan's $7000 estimate for what you're looking for isn't far off the mark; any one that tells you it can be done for under $4500 is leaving stuff out, starting with headwork, which is where the power comes from.
That said, decide how much you have to spend and have fun...
PS- If you're really looking for the cruising speed that a 3.44/.89 gearset will provide, you will need the torque of that 2275 to do it... You're not asking the impossible, it's just not going to be cheap (I think I already said that!lol).
I know the big motor sounds expensive, but that's what it takes to make the power you're asking for. As Stan said, for a 2007 to hit any where near the 200hp mark that sucker will have to hit 7000 rpm. A bigger motor you don't have to wind up so high.
And big, high hp motors are expensive. Stan's $7000 estimate for what you're looking for isn't far off the mark; any one that tells you it can be done for under $4500 is leaving stuff out, starting with headwork, which is where the power comes from.
That said, decide how much you have to spend and have fun...
PS- If you're really looking for the cruising speed that a 3.44/.89 gearset will provide, you will need the torque of that 2275 to do it... You're not asking the impossible, it's just not going to be cheap (I think I already said that!lol).
Allen and Stan: thanks for your input to newbie Luke. I think you are right about weight and displacement. The reason I get away with a 2165 is weight, or lack thereof. My Spyder weighs 1450 pounds,1650 with me in it. Most Speedsters are close to or over 2000 pounds with driver.
172hp at 6500, torque curve is FLAT, and over 140 ft. lbs. from just under 3000 all the way up to 6000! Oh, and when I get back from Carlisle, I should be over 24,000 miles on this drivetrain.
172hp at 6500, torque curve is FLAT, and over 140 ft. lbs. from just under 3000 all the way up to 6000! Oh, and when I get back from Carlisle, I should be over 24,000 miles on this drivetrain.
Daniel- your car sounds like it's a blast to drive! With a light car and that much hp it must be a rocket! What tires do you have on the back?
Just so we
While I understand why attempting to specify gearing without knowing specific engine performance would be foolish for a dragster or a track car, for a road car (particularly this one) it makes sense. Consider this:
A road car spends the vast majority of its time at or near very specific speeds, which are predefined by local speed limits. Where I live that
A road car spends the vast majority of its time at or near very specific speeds, which are predefined by local speed limits. Where I live that
I think the gears will work quite well with a bigger motor. I would check with Pat Downs at CB for the hp limit with the Los Panchito heads before buying. It will be a fun car.
Allen, Bridgestone RE960-AS, 195/60/15 on 5.5" wide5. Front is 4.5", 185/65/15, same tire. Way stickier than the old, hard Pirellis.
24,500 miles, 757 for the weekend. Not bad for a Spyder. I really like the combo, it is enough power, but not too much. Gearing works very well with the torque curve. Tires can be broken loose fairly easy, but you can get the power down without spinning down the road.
24,500 miles, 757 for the weekend. Not bad for a Spyder. I really like the combo, it is enough power, but not too much. Gearing works very well with the torque curve. Tires can be broken loose fairly easy, but you can get the power down without spinning down the road.
Cruising at 100 to 120 is effortless and stable in a properly setup 356 replica. 168HP to the rear wheels via a 915 transmission in 5th. Bridgestone Potenza RE050A's on 8" rear and 6" front 15" wheels. 911 front suspension, 914 rear. Corner balanced. Car weighs 2300lbs empty. Not that I would ever recommend it!
Tomm
Tomm
Danny
That sounds about right. By the way, I meant 944 for the rear suspension, instead of the 914 I typed. Good luck on your build!
Tomm
Tomm
Luke, sorry I missed you. Maybe next year you can stay a while. Thanks for the positive comment on my ride.
Daniel- Sounds like a good combo. I was under the impression that with Spyders it was difficult to fit wider rubber under the back. Good to hear the feedback on the Bridgestones.
This seems to come down to the same thing: You can only go as fast as your wallet, nerve, road conditions and skills will allow. We've probably all heard the same thing: "Tell me how fast you want to go and I'll give you a price to do it."
Thank you all for the advice and opinions regarding the drivetrain. Now, on to suspension:
I stumbled across this genuinely fine nugget a while back, and have been studying it ever since:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=127619
While this information specifically applies to the Karmann Ghia, the author makes his own case for the applicability of it to Speedsters both replica and genuine. I thought many of you would find this topic of interest. Have a look, and let me know if his conclusions would be confirmed or refuted by your own experience.
I stumbled across this genuinely fine nugget a while back, and have been studying it ever since:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=127619
While this information specifically applies to the Karmann Ghia, the author makes his own case for the applicability of it to Speedsters both replica and genuine. I thought many of you would find this topic of interest. Have a look, and let me know if his conclusions would be confirmed or refuted by your own experience.
Fantastic link, Luke! Makes me want to race-prep a Ghia for street use.
Or a replica Speedster