New Coupe Molds

Hi everyone,

I know this has come up on various forums here in the past year, and I'm one of the interested parties in a Coupe. The current status I believe is that one of the vendors may have the Envemo molds, but they are not in a great state of repair and there isn't a clear timeline on when a Coupe kit/turnkey might surface.

Perhaps I'm being naive here, but we're not talking about a body that is that difficult to come across. Would it not be practical for someone to purchase a nice 356 Coupe, take a mold off the car, and then resell the car? The coupes seem to sell for as low as the mid-$20's for a car in nice shape, and assuming it isn't damaged in the process, I beleive resale is strong. Why not just make a new mold?

Thoughts?

-Jeff

Tooling is very, very expensive. My understanding is that they would have to pull the positive, make a negatvie mold, then create the positive, permanent mold with all the manufacturing forming in it (i.e., hood & deck lip and door cut outs. Then there is the dash and doors, as well as the cockpit forming. It's a pretty big deal to move to production tooling. Major investment.

Also, there are the Speedster jihadist out there that might seek to destroy other Porsche replics in development, before they can move into production. It's an emotional, cultist type thing.

I guess I'm always tempted to ask what the definition of "very expensive" is in this context. While its no minor task, it doesn't sound like it would be an outlandish undertaking for fibreglass experts?

-Jeff

From a conversation I had with "Dave" owner of Factory Five Racing "FFR" (Cobra manufacture) $70 to $100k and countless hours of tweeking to tool molds.

One of the reasons the Speedster Replica is so attractive is its price relative to an actual Porsche Speedster. The Speedster Replica is better and much less expensive.

A replica coupe would probably wind up being more expensive than the real thing. And while the reliability/driveability would be superior, how many could you sell when a nicely refurbished Porsche 356 Coupe can be had in the $20k-$30k range?

Making that first set of "molds" would be really costly. You'd want to be sure you could sell a reasonable number of Replicoupes before you plunked down the cash to have them made. I don't think it's the kind of "investment" any of the current replica manufacturers are willing to make.

Would a lot of people line up for a Replicoupe that stickered for $50k+? I'd bet, "No."

I agree with John's position. When you look at ads for used original Porsche's, the going price for coupes v. convertibles seems to favor the ragtops by nearly 10 grand, all other things being equal. Coupes have a certain appeal and are probably more practical, but it seems that most enthusiasts like the wind in the hair appeal of driving top down. You can count me in on that one especially if I had to lay down big bucks to get the steel over my head.

Aha, Subaru John, was hoping you'd appear. On different thread, how is the Suby-Tub holding up after a few months?

Back on the coupe topic, I'm not sure where $50K came from. If there was a coupe for $25K is anyone interested?

-Jeff

A bunch of us (me included) are already standing in line for the ressurected Envemo coupe that Beck is working on. Talking with Carey Hines at Carlisle, he was optimistic that the delivered cost would not be very much more than a delivered Speedster or Roadster. While I would balk a lot at a $50K coupe, something in the $25K - $30K range might be appealing, depending on the power plant and amenities.

The Envemo coupe molds exist, but haven't been used for a decade and must be cleaned up, repaired and generally readied for a small-lot, pre-production run to see what needs further attention. After that, they start making more, as the demand warrants.

'Bout all I know, for now......gn

I've been keeping my eye open for a Coupe, and have also discussed it with Cary Hines. Sounds like the Envemo (or will it be called the Beck) Coupe is still on the back burner. Someone in Mexico City (Raul) is working on it, and there is a company in England that offers one (right hand drive only at this point). Yet, nothing concrete. Envemo acually made more Coupes than Cabriolets when it was in production (so I am told) but delivered few to the USA. The real Coupe 356's sell in the 20's to 30's, but when you live on the ocean, rust is a big issue. It is a frequent thread, but no one is stepping up to the plate to take the project on. Right now, seems like an IM with hard top is the next best thing.

Herb, do you happen to have the name of the company in england or a web link? I live off shore and we are RHD drive here, although most of us drive LHD north american vehicles, just on the other side of the road. I'd be curious how the British coupe prices out.

Thanks,

-Jeff

I think that Intermeccanica needs to make a 356 coupe. What a beauty that would be (listening Henry?).
Ron

I would buy a Beck Coupe in a heart beat. However, how reliable is the quote that Beck is working on the envemo mold to build a coupe. What ever happened to the Porsche 904 that was suppose to be built as well???
In any case you can not drive an original 356 if you live anywhere other than Arizona etc. The poroblems with rust are unavoidable. I restored a Porsche many years ago and drove it as a daily driver in Pennsylvania. Needless to say it lasted for around 5 years and was then rusted out again to the point of junking. This is with many repairs being done for rust in the wheel well area after the restoration as well. Has anyone given the thought that the coupe would be very inexpensive to run in terms of fuel cost. As it is now it does not look as though the fuel cost will be coming down in the future. I am presently paying $2.35 a gallon in Scottsdale,AZ. Deepending on how far you drive to work the cost of fuel does add up. I am currently looking at purchasing an Envemo coupe but am having a hard time locating any.

Jeff, I will look for it, but I didn't bookmark it. I did send them an email, which they never responded to, asking them if they had any plans to make sa left hand drive model.

Thanks for looking in to it Herb. I hope you can find it. My searches through google haven't uncovered it yet.

John, I agree on the fuel issue. The island where I live has $4/Gallon gas and the speed limit is capped at 40 mph (there are no long open stretches), so huge HP and a gas guzzling engine aren't of a lot of interest. If I bought a VW based car it would be a basic 1600cc ride. But a nice lightweight, tossable little coupe would be great. A roadster would work too but it will spend almost all the time with the top up. Its too hot to put it down till the evening (albeit one of the finer times to go topless).

Now if I could get something like the Specialty Auto (SAW) Subaru powered Roadster in a coupe, that would be really nice. The problem there is the engine access is behind the seats so once you put the top on the car I think maintenance would be a problem. I'd love a modern drive train in a coupe body. Something like a small Honda or Toyota front wheel drive four, reversed to be rear wheel drive and slipped under the back of the Coupe shell would be lovely. :) Easy on gas too. But I guess you'd be back to the maintenance issue. I wonder what other drive trains SAW's frame might accept? It opens up a lot of possibilities if economy and reliability are put ahead of performance... which I think is what a lot of people are talking about a coupe for. A speedster/roadster for sunny days and faster fun, and a coupe for a quieter, more reliable and affordable daily driver.

I think a basic interior, a nice little japanese four sitting in the back with fuel injection, japanese 5 speed, a good stereo and good AC/heat and defrosting would make a compelling argument for a classy daily driver. Instead of high end, think high volume.... thoughts?

I'm going to poke around but I think a power plant below 2L with around 100 HP would be good. The 1.6L in my wife's recent Tercel was quite peppy and I think right around 100 HP. Something mass production like a Honda Civic mill or a Toyota mill from an ecnobox...

-Jeff

Here's your Outlaw Coupe project, all set to go.

Are you folks SURE that these can't be somehow mounted to a VW pan? Check out the shot through the rear window that shows the open (no floor pans) interior. Without that spine section and with an arch cut into the front foot well wall, it looks like it might join up with a little metal work ? ! ?

Maybe . . .

I mean with a raw body like this, with a rust preventative "dip" and an epoxy primer sealer, along with some Master Series seal- in/protection to eliminate any immediate rust issues; this leaves a cool original body all set to go. A metal 356 Outlaw Coupe with built up VW power and bullet proof suspension. Maybe a wide body, stripped out race style interior, AND it's got a sunroof!

Seeing a bare shell like that, It just looks so . . . possible . . . doesn't it?

TC

Oooppppssss . . .

All that typing and I forgot the link!

cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6428&item=2496316326&rd=1

Here's the car, sorry. Obviously I got a little carried away, I think that it was the wide body that got to me . . .

TC

That kind of makes me want to go back to the original question about whether or not someone with the appropriate amount of fibreglass skill wouldn't be better off buying a shell like this and taking off a mold for a project. At $3500 or even $5000 it seems like a very affordable way to get a coupe body (let alone a sunroof one), to work on a prototype with... I'm thinking that someone with ties to the boatbuilding industry would be in good shape to get molds made? But again, maybe I'm back to *ahem* "mis-underestimating" what is involved.

Is there anyone on the forum who has made fibreglass molds before?

-Jeff

PS - I'm going to look at some engine stats for japanese econoboxes and also the original 356 coupes and post some stats...

According to this post:

www.speedsters.com/discus/messages/13/182.html?1059087530

Martin and Walker seem to have done a coupe. There is an interesting point made in the discussion. Someone says they think it is simply a speedster or roadster body that a coupe top was devleoped for. So essentially just an extension of the molds rather than a complete new set. Now thats a curious idea....

-Jeff

Or you could just buy a hardtop for the car you have and then you really have the best of both worlds

A Speedster and a Coupe are very different from the back of the doors back.

Thats true if the look is what your going for then it is different, but I love the way my IM looks with the hardtop

Price???? You will need to ask them I bought my car used and haven't ever seen a new price. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing henry would want to sell the hardtop on a new purchase and or have the car available to make the top fit as good as it does.

Oops, double posted by accident.

Wow Steve, that is a gorgeous hard top. Very different in style from the one I saw on the (I think it was) JPS site.

That would definitely fit the bill in terms of styling... But I'm still hung up on a japanese drivetrain. Now if I could get one of the SAW cars with that hard top, and the subaru drivetrain, it would be pretty close to ideal. :) Although a nice coupe in the low $20s would be nice too... :)

-Jeff

TC; saw the ebay post. I guess you could just weld the new floor panels the owner already offers and just bolt on the original tranny a killer VW powerplant...then season the car to taste.....looks like a good deal.

I located the website of the UK coupe provider. It doesn't have too much detail and only one photo, but I've contacted them and asked for more info.

www.904gts.co.uk/

www.asgi10.dsl.pipex.com/coupep01.html

-Jeff

I would not waste my time with this company in England. I have known about that website for years and they never respond to an e-mail asking about their products being sold. This is a sure sign not a company you want to do business with.

In regard to the coupe body being sold. I have given this a thought however my experiences with rust is something of a nightmare. When you spend the money to restore a car and take care of it and park it in a garage every night and still have rust problems its something you never want to deal with again. I do not want a Porsche to just sit in a garage and be afraid to drive it becasue it might rain. This is not really owning the car you are not enjoying it as it was meant to be. Plus if I were able to use the car as a daily driver then I could justify the expense of the car to purchase. I have tried to research and find out as much as possible on what you had suggested on coating the underbelly etc, using POR-15. However I do not know anyone that has done that and driven the car as a daily driver. A coupe would allow you to truly drive the car year round. I prefer a car that is almost authentic. Just as an envemo is. It might have a volkswagen engine and drivetrain however it would still be on the same principle. This is the only reason I do not like the Porsche coupe with a subaru engine. It is getting away from the originality of the design. However this is just my opinion and personal preference. If I could only find someone selling the Envemo coupe body I would buy it and take an old 356C and restore the engine , drivetrain, etc and install it in the coupe body and then you have basically an original 356C with a fiberglass body. Has anyone thought of that? Now that is what I would ultimately want to do. How would the Porsche club classify the car? But it would be the best of both worlds. The original mechanics,steering, suspension with a body you do not have to worry about rust. Truly HEAVEN!!!!!!

John,

While we differ on the approach for the drivetrain I think our overall spirit is the same. I love the look and feel of the european cars of the 50's and 60's but I'm not interested in a lot of the hassle that goes with owning a "classic" car.

I've owned a number of older cars, although it would be a stretch to call them classics. A series of triumphs and older BMWs. As Dad used to say "You know the problem with old cars? They're old.". I had the floor literally fall out of one of the BMW coupes.

Contrasted with that, my wife had a late 90's Tercel that we bought new (and had about four years). Literally all we ever did was change the oils and put bigger wheels on it. Then I sold it to my brother and he hasn't had a single problem. If I could have that kind of bulletproof drivetrain experience with the style and panache of a 356 coupe with some basic creature comforts, it would be an ideal year round car.

I guess where we are back to is that regardless of the drivetrain, there seems to be material demand on this forum (and on others I've come across in my searches) for a coupe body. Given that, and the relative availability of originals, I started looking in to companies that specialize in fibreglass molds to see if the idea of outsourcing the mold making to industrial specialists might make sense. I've found a few interesting options. But I'm also no interested in starting a company, I'm just an entrepreneur who likes to take a hard look at interesting projects.

-Jeff

All of you kids are missing the obvious , , ,

Grab up that metal 356 coupe body, mount it on a solid restored Beetle pan, Hook up with a massive motor, all the best suspension mods, and a sweet set of wheels and sneakers.

Now drive it ! When the door rust breaks out, patch it with fiberglass and mat. When the wheels tubs rot through, patch them with fiberglass and mat. When the front fenders blow out above the headlamps, fix them with fiberglass and mat. And so on, and so on . . .

You'll get five good years of driving a tastey coupe, and EVENTUALLY . . . you'll own a fiberglass replica ! Already mounted on a build chassis. It's the best of all worlds, you get the street cred of owning a metal 356 coupe until it rots away under the repairs, THEN you get the cool cred of owning a fiberglass repro 356 Coupe ! ? !

Just 0.3 inches larger all the way around, than the original.

I am largely with Team Evil here, though rather than a Vw chassis I would consider buying a tube frame from the replica biz in Florida. With the coupe's body removed from the 356 chassis the body and rust can be dealt with thoroughly and effectively.

I am sure Carey will pipe up shortly -- earlier I asked him about possible Beck coupes. At that time he projected a tentative rough estimate of low $30's cost, it is certainly going to be more expensive than a Speedster replica. For that same $30k+ you can buy a dang nice authentic Outlaw coupe that already has had the owner's money and sweat pumped into his project.

I know this may be sacrilige here, but not all of us want to rip our cars apart, constantly change things, mess with fibreglass on a regular basis and deal with rust. I just want a nice looking daily driver that has modern reliability.... Am I in the wrong room? :)

-Jeff

"I just want a nice looking daily driver that has modern reliability.... Am I in the wrong room? :)"

Probably. Daily driver... modern reliability... this starts to speak to my favorite rant. I'll leave it at this:

These car's aren't modern. If you buy one thinking it will be a modern, weather-tight, daily driver anywhere but in the sunbelt- you're gonna' be disappointed. If you think you'll be able to take it to the shop on the corner, or the VW dealer and get good, cheap service, you'll be dissapointed. If you think I'm being negative, check out ebay, or autotrader.com, or the classified section here. If I gave you a dime for every car for sale with over 20K mi, you wouldn't have enough to buy a cup of joe at micky-D's.

I drive my daily drivers 30K+ mi/ yr. I've got an '02 JPS w/ 4K mi, and I drive it every chance I get. You are probably in the wrong room.

I'm sorry for thread hijacking guys . . . I just realized that I'm talking about working over a steel 356 Coupe and all that stuff, when the heading at the top of my brouser reads SPEEDSTEROWNERS!

Kind of got carried away with the bench building/bench racing thing . . . I think that I'M in the wrong room.

TC

Stan,

I hear you and from what I've read (I haven't had the pleasure of ownership yet, I'm till absorbing everything I can get my hands on) I agree with you. Which brnigs me back to my point, or at least my wildassidea(tm).

The coupe body addresses all weather use. A modern japanese drivetrain (and we know the Subaru at least works in the roadster body) addresses the reliability, assuming all the various trim and electrical bits in the middle are of good quality.

I have been thinking more about the hardtop idea. I haven't mailed SAW yet to ask if their Subaru roadster has a hardtop option (but boy does the Intermeccanica look sweet with the hard top on...). If it does, that may be as close as I get. I don't think the Subaru driveline would work in a coupe body (if there was such a thing available) as the engine is accessed from behind the seats, from above, with the top down.

I guess if the discussion is on the viability and reliability of a Japanese driveline in one of these cars, then maybe John H. our resident SAW owner can weigh in. He's had his for a few months now. From my off-forum discussions with him he's had only very minor teething, which is exceptional for such a hand made car, and not uncommon on something mass produced.

I'm pretty sure I'm in the right building... :)

-Jeff

I am totally confused by where this thread went. Is anyone saying that we should not be discussing a coupe body because this site is for speedsters?? I hope not because we are all just having a discussion on a Porsche replica.

John,

Don't worry about it, we tend to get off track virtually every day. Something will come to mind and pretty soon everybody is tilting at differant windmills, makes it fun.

Bruce

I agree and that is why I have from time to time always come back to this forum. The individuals here are very informative and good people. I believe when we do have good discussions like the one this thread has started it does allow the builders to get a good idea of where the market trends might be. Thanks guys...

Jeff,
That's the site I was referring to -- Martin & Walker. And, my experience with them is no different than the others. I sent them emails, and they never responded. I was asking about a left hand drive model, and I figured they did't respond because they don't make one. Of course, "We don't make one" would have taken 2 seconds and would have been much more courteous, but be that as it may. Maybe you will have better luck with them if it is just a straight out purchase inquiry.

I have seen shots of cars with hard tops but Intermeccanica, Vintage and JPS don't seem to have any price listing for them on their sits. How available are hard tops and how expensive?

-Jeff