New Engine questions

If you're starting with a standard VW case, the 1776 is pretty solid if you use good components. For what you're doing, that seems like the logical choice.

I think the cylinders for the 1835 and larger get a bit thinner than I'd like.

Go with your gut,
Ted

A 1776 or 1835 with thickwall 92's would make a great motor. Stock valve dual port head with a little porting clean up (manifold surface matched and blended to intakes, valve guide bosses thinned a bit, any port misalignment below the valve seat blended a little bit, valve areas unshrouded in the combustion chambers, and exhaust ports lightly polished, but not enlarged) and an Engle W100 or W110 cam (depending on how high you want it to rev) should work with your 34's quite nicely.

A 74mm crankshaft with either p/c set (1904 or 1968cc's) would also make for a nicer torque curve and a little more fun to drive if a counterweighted crankshaft is in the plans. You could do a 78x90.5 (2007cc's) but I wouldn't go any bigger. Al

If the case has not yet been cut for oversized jugs, consider the "thick-walled 88s" that were briefly in fashion some years back. Slip-in piston/cylinder combo that's thicker-walled than stock and yields--help me out here, knowledge boys--something like 1679ccs.

Jake Raby built a "sweep-the-floor" version of this engine a few years back that did maybe 100 horses or so at 5k rpm. Engle 110, 1.4 rockers on solid shafts, small valve heads, dual 40s and (of course) a balanced crank shaft. Something like that.

Guys here will constantly push you to go gigantic. A 1914 probably makes sense, but these 23XX builds are really spendy, seems to me. 

EDIT: here's the thread on the Raby 1679. Looks like too much compression to me, but the main idea isn't a bad one. 

Big Al - FWIW, my '95 VS had the Mexi-crate 1776 when I bought it from original owner. He owned it 1 year logged 5K miles. First thing I did was install thick-wall 92's (like ALB mentioned for 1835) retained my dual Kadrons, installed 1.25 rockers, full-flow oil cooler with thermostat fan and finally A-1 sidewinder.

You know the rest of my story....

It all comes down to what you want/can spend.  Changing out cranks for more stroke add another $600 real quick.  Once you dismantle your old engine - check the bore.  If they are 85.5 mm and, despite it being run down, were you happy with general performance?  If they were 92 mm, and you weren't happy, maybe you need to go bigger.  Looking at a stock case bored for 94mm jugs - scares me with how much little case meat is left for head studs to seat!

Al- When I said I wouldn't go any bigger than 78x90.5 earlier, that's because of your heads and carbs. Bigger would entail 40x35 ported heads (instead of the 35x32mm valves your heads have), more carburetion and exhaust. A 2180 with your parts would be a torque monster, but be done be 4500rpm or possibly even less. The engine would be out of breath from the stock heads and small carbs. Some properly ported stock valve heads will support 120 or 125 hp, have a great torque curve when used on a 2 liter and be a ton of fun to drive, but you may have to upgrade the carbs to something a little bigger- either kadrons, 36 or 40mm Webers or Dels. You could put stock heads on a 1915, 1968 or 2007, use an Engle W100 (or anything similar) cam and it will make 85 or so hp (again, with a great torque curve) and rev to maybe 5,000rpm and be a fun engine as well. I think a question on the hp capabilities of those 34's on the Samba is in order- unless someone here knows....

PS- A 2180 or 2276 like this http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=265227&highlight=  at 150 or 160hp would be a blast to drive, get good mileage because of the huge torque curve (when you could keep you foot out of it) and not require much more maintenance than stock (as long as you weren't beating it all the time from when it was started to the moment it was turned off), but it will cost a wee bit more. It would be a $hitload of fun though.  

 Ted- The (very short) Cliff notes on Jim- He's one of the mileage champions here, putting some 80-85,000 miles on his car. From what I gather, he drives it a lot. One of the joys of living in southern California.

Wolfgang- I know a case cut for 94's looks scary (and your pic is a great example), but I've never heard about inserts pulling through the case. It's not an issue, as thousands of engines have been built with 94's over the last 30 or so years and it's just not something you read about. If it was, there'd be people complaining on the Samba, Callook Lounge and Shop Talk Forums. 

Al G, make whatever size makes you happy. If you are locked into those carbs then I'd keep it on the small side like you figure.

When I took mine apart, I could not see head stud threads showing on the case, and I have 94s.

MUSBJIM wrote (after describing his engine transformation to an 1815):

"You know the rest of my story.... "

Like the "Energizer Bunny", Jim has run that thing without issues for about 100,000 miles now.....

THAT's the rest of the story......

Big Al- I have an article I wrote about doing a full flow conversion that includes reworking the engine case (you can sjip that part), radiator type and placement, placement of the oil filter and what I used for oil hoses.  I'll find it and send it over.

I think Jim's Speedster is his daily driver, weather permitting - which it usually does.  Heck, I've put just shy of 40k miles on mine in seven years and it's just a weekend toy.  These are definitely made to be driven, not just looked at.

Al:  Article sent via email.

gn

Thanks you guys. I'll see how much of this stuff I can absorb.

Danny, the reason I would like to stay on the small side, engine wise, has to do with the place I live and the kind of driving I do 99% of the time. 

I've had a few fast cars here and a motorcycle that would do 100 in second gear. I have to drive 45 miles just to get to a highway that has a 65mph speed limit fer crissakes!  I've been here for 27 years and have learned to go with the flow. Too much horse power around here is frustrating because you never get to use it. I take the back roads at off times to get everywhere in the summer, and most of that is 40mph or less. I do push it now and then, but bicycles and clueless people are everywhere.

That particular example is using 10mm studs, that's why the insert's threads are showing.

Hey Gordon,

Ohh, that could be useful information.

Is that something you could also forward along to me?  You have my information.

Thanks,

Ted

Ted - as Gordon mentioned, my VS is pretty much a daily driver. It seems that Big Al and I share the same driving habits, no drag racing, mostly cruising with occasional flat-out runs (well, as fast as 75-80 hp can muster). My odometer is just about to turn 149,000Km (about 93,000mi) of relatively trouble-free cruising.

Another thought is, if there was any catastrophic engine failure, I wouldn't have to mortgage my home to replace the engine I had! 

These kinds of decisions is why Baskin Robins has 31 flavors. 

Yup. That's my kind of motor as well. I'd just like reliable for my hobby car, thank you.

Thanks for filling me in,
Ted

AL. 

......1776cc.

Lightened 8 dowel flywheel, counterweight crankshaft, Engle 110 camshaft, the bigger oil pump, solid rocker shafts with hi rev single springs, decent lifters and quality piston/jug set. Heads you can either rebuilds the stock heads or bump things up a tad to 042 heads.

Finally while the case is a part have it opened for full flow then you can do an external oil filter & dual Kadrons ( set them and forget them) ...With the moderate sized 1776 you don't have to do an add on external oil cooler but that motor will have decent torque  and get you down the road nicely and with reliability...... Just keep in mind the bigger motors make additional heat and tend to require more tweeking My .02  ~Alan

Alan, your 2 cents is worth a whole lot more than that. Thanks again.

Jimmy, Bingo!  You nailed it. I want a ride that lowers my blood pressure and relaxes me. There's enough stuff to worry about all around. Reliable is good.

JustinH, thanks I didn't think about 10mm studs. Obviously, I have stock 8mm.

Al, I totally understand your needs, I also agree with what Alan says. A good balance job of all the internals really helps for smoothness and longevity. Build it right and that motor will outlast you and go to the grandkids someday!

How many miles do you put on it a year? And pretty hard to beat the combo Alan suggests. Either the W110 or the W100 makes a great engine. I suggest the W100 as it would still rev to over 5,000rpm with power, have a little more bottom end/midrange, be a little more reliable and work with your 34's.

That sounds just like what I would be looking for. Set it and forget it. Baste every 3000 miles. Enjoy for years.

Just for some perspective:

What sort of HP/Torque (estimates) would that put out compared to the 1835 Jim mentioned?

What would that 1776 cost a guy, just for the long block/Flywheel combo? I assume you'd run an 009 distributor?

Thanks!
Ted

Well, Bernie Bergman is advertising them for around $5K

http://www.bergmannvw.net/engines.html

Gordon! Don't give anyone ideas! That's the last place you want to be looking at engines!

I think old Gordo was being a little facetious.....

That's the problem with this thing, Dan; so was I. I guess I should have used a face...

I still need a car, then a motor.

(I'm not kidding...)

Ted

We live in the day of the "crate engine". The V8 world has fantastic sub-$5K engines sitting on pallets, waiting for somebody to call and order them. This bears no relevance to the world we inhabit here in this odd little hobby.

To be sure, there are guys selling "turn-key" engines for immediate delivery. They are generally built to a price-point, using whatever is on hand (usually EMPI parts of dubious quality). Unfortunately, even reputable shops have to make some compromises on an ideal engine configuration. A lot of the "REALLY good stuff" comes from odd little corners of the world-- and is made in small batches, when the mood strikes. Some of it hasn't been made in years (Delloroto carbs). Getting an ideal engine often involves collecting parts for several years for a build off somewhere in the future. Ported heads are the worst-- I've had a set of heads take 6 months to get. Even CNC ported heads from CB take a couple of months--when the castings are in stock, which they often are not.

Most builders farm out at least some of the machine work. Even having a lathe and a couple of mills isn't enough to do everything that might need done, and there's really only a couple of machine shops in the country that specialize in VW machine work.

Building a nice motor takes some time too. Pat Downs or Blackline Racing or Clyde Berg are going to charge a couple thousand dollars to screw it together-- because they are going to put it together "dry", then check everything for fit, and take it apart again. There are many ways to screw up assembling a non-stock air-cooled engine, and stuff that take time. Shop rates at good shops are $80+/hr. The guys that own them are trying to make a living, and most of them live in houses that aren't as nice as yours.

Everybody will promise 6 weeks. Don't believe a word of it. It's not because they intend to lie, it's because everyone is reliant on everyone else, and everybody in this hobby is perpetually 2 months behind.

A really, really nice engine can often take about a year to get the parts together for, and another 3-6 months to get built. Most guys think that's ridiculous, and give up and hire it out to someone who promises 6 weeks. Sometimes they are pleased, lots of times they are not. Almost none of them get an engine within the time-frame they were expecting. Sometimes, "commodity" engine builders can hit that mark, but good luck trying to shorten the time horizon for a high-quality build. Sometimes lightening strikes, but usually you just end up standing in the rain.

In this hobby, especially-- good stuff takes time and costs money. You don't always get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get. And you'll grow old waiting for the privilege to pay an exorbitant amount of money for the good stuff.

Forewarned is forearmed.

Something about truer words...

T

Stan, I'm at the "collecting parts" stage. I did find a guy who has a complete machine shop and builds air cooled race engines and has done machine work for other builders and racers for about 40 years. It took me a while to convince him that I didn't need 200hp but I think we reached a compromise if we can find the "good" parts .

Al--It looks like you have decided to stay with the Type I---not a bad idea.  Many folks on the SOC swear that the 1915 engine is a fine choice.  C.B. Performance has a turnkey one with good looking stuff in it for $5,995. Additional goodies are also available if you want.

I'd opt for a known builder like Pat Downs at C.B. Performance and get a known quantity for the peace of mind that comes with it. Nothing like knowing that you won't experience "unscheduled maintenance", Jake Raby's term for a breakdown on the road.

Good luck with whatever you decide but the C.B. Performance engine should be able to be installed in your car in time for Carlisle.

ALB, you were serious, I wouldn't send an enemy to Bergmann! Short, short list of engine builders that are worth the phone call and cash!

Stan you are absolutely right. It takes 6 weeks just to figure out where the parts might be coming from. I can't remember how long it took Jake to build, test, and ship my engine, but six months rings a bell. Anyway, it was way shorter than the car, which is the point as I didn't have anywhere to put the motor. Bottom line, engine builder delivered as promised, car builder delivered, but late.

X2 for Pat Downs and one of his 1915s.  A nice blend of performance, reliability, and reasonable cost.  That's him on the left.

Just so you all know, Al has his engine currently at a local guy who, as he said, has been building aircooled VW engines for over 40 years.  He had a terrific reputation among the Formula Vee and Dune Buggy folks when I was doing buggies, and I ran against his engines more than a few times in autocross and on the beach.  Good, solid workmanship and quality engines, throughout.  When aircooled VW's began to wane he, like others doing that sort of work, migrated to motorcycle engines 'cuz that's where the money went.  I thought he had retired but he's one of those guys who needs to be busy so he keeps on building engines, just not quite as many as he used to and he provides the same quality now as he always has.

What Al has is, basically, good stuff, but his case is not useable and that's what he needs the most.  His builder has already rejected a couple of cases and they both are still looking for a use-able one.  something from CB or Pauter might be the answer, they just have to get one in.

There are a lot of local engine builders that really know their stuff, and if something should go wrong (as it sometimes does), you're not shipping the damn thing across the country, with the associated car down time and arguing about freight charges. The more we keep the local trade going the easier it will be to find service when we need it, as almost all of us can't do everything ourselves. And it keeps some of that money spent in the local economy, as well.

Al- So what are you building? You should know by now I live for these details!

Danny- You are right; facetious is the wrong word and I was serious! I was trying to inject a little humor into the script, though. I think we should all agree to never use that B word here again... Al 

Al B :  Dana Johnson is a CB Performance dealer and has been building high performance AC engines for many years. I found him by word of mouth at a VW and Corvair show we attended with Gordon and Kathy last summer. He builds drag motors for himself and others with very good results , and has an 11 second Bug in his own garage. He's very picky and I believe he'll build me a great engine , and the best part is he's only 100 miles away, not 3000. (AAA distance) I believe in dealing locally if possible too. I think he's wearing me down and we'll probably go with a 1915 or something close.

I just hope the rest of the "platform" is up to the test.

Good for you, Al.

Then you might be getting one of Pat's kits for the same engine I have.

Yep, Lane. That possibility has been discussed. I know you really like your engine, and have had great reliability on long distance runs... That is ....reliable if you can stop removing your carbs in hotel parking lots.  (sorry couldn't resist)

Guess I'll never live that one down, huh?