New guy. My speedster running hot..

Let me take a minute to thank all of you that have contributed here on speedsterowners.com over the years. Stumbling across the actively contributed wealth of information and seeing a dedicated group of kit car owners greatly influenced my ultimate decision to the plunge! :)

My new weekend project/toy is running on the hot side.. a 97 CMC. While getting her back into shape my little spins around town would see the temp swing between 190-200 on the mystery oil already in the pan.

My first oil change I went to 20w-50 and immediately experienced temp issues.

I made no other changes at that time, playing with the engine tins and swapping plugs brought the temps down bit but still no where near safe IMHO. Before I start swapping jets and consider an external oil cooler does anyone have any suggestions as to what to swap oil down to?

I'm located in South Carolina, so I'm looking to maximize for warm weather and still be safe taking her for a spin during the cooler months of the year.

Specs: 1776Type1, dual Dells, 5qt oil pan.

Thanks for all the help!
George

190-200 degrees is fine --- what is it now? Do you have rubber seal between engine tin and chassis? And the fiberglass (2) pieces above the exhaust? And the firewall cutout in front of the fan (per instruction manual)?

Hi Wolfgang,

I was running 190-200 on the oil that came with the car (unknown type and viscosity) After the change to 20w-50 I quickly run right up to 230.

i replaced the rubber seals. The passenger tin did not wrap around the valve cover and was replaced. These small changes dropped temps down to 210-220ish, but I am still pushing close to 230 when I put any load on the motor.

the car does have the doghouse fan and the glass infront of the motor was cutout for the fan.

George

Can you find out what the "mystery oil" was? I am amazed that using a different type/grade would make that much difference. I was running straight 30W in my '63 bug ('66 engine) and my oil temp after a long expressway run was about 190 degrees. Are you using a dipstick thermometer to take this reading?

I have not been able to reach the previous owner. I have been relying on the not accurate dash guage and the oh "oh sh*t she's hot" hand test on the dipstick.

Several things comes to mind and the first is the weather. Was there a significant change in the ambient temperature between oil changes?
Check your alternator/generator belt, if it isn't properly adjusted then the fan won't turn at it's proper speed.
Check your timing. It should not exceed 28 degree's before top dead center at 3,000 RPM's. Additionally, check the valve clearance. Being a 1776cc engine, check for steel or aluminum pushrods. If the pushrods are aluminum than I'd set the valves at .004 intake and .006 exhaust. If you don't know how to adjust the valves then look in the knowledge section. The only difference is that you'll need 2 feeler gauges. The instructions are for "0" valve clearance and don't require a feeler gauge.

Are you running synthetic? Sometimes synthetic doesn't dissipate the heat as quickly as does non synthetic oil. In another scenario, synthetic is more "slippery" than regular oil and the engine may have had synthetic and you switched to regular thus, more friction.

Along with the above make sure that any hoses that supply air to the heater system are intact and if there are a couple of male outlets on the front of the fan shroud that are open then plug them shut so you don't lose any air from the fan.

Hey George! Bill (your brother) told me about your car. Do you have an external cooler and oil filter? In the heat down here I would consider them a necessity. Not sure why changing oil would make as much difference as you stated, but you could try going to Brad Penn 20w-50 (recommended by Jake Raby and others) and see if that helps.

Your oil's too thick. It's causing excess oil pressure and it's bypassing the oil cooler (at the volume control valve). Try backing down to 10W-40 or 10W-30.

edit: also your volume control valve spring could be weak or the oil cooler passages could be partially clogged not allowing enough flow through it with the thicker oil. Both would cause more oil to bypass the cooler and cause higher temps, with the effect exaggerated by the thicker oil.

George,

Have you checked the intake side of the fan ? Mine was running hot when I first got it, tried a number of things then found a dryer sheet (the ones you throw in the dryer with your clothes)in the fan intake, removed it no more problems.

Chuck

Once upon a time I lost a shop rag where as, the motor started to run too warm, rag recovered as above.

Me too--twice. Slow learner, I guess. A rag in the fan will cause
trouble every time!

Hi Lane,

Thanks much for your offer to assist my car way back when. I noted you had a Beck when I first saw you here. I knew you would have little trouble talking me into it... the Mrs... a different story! :)

Right now I have no oil cooler. Any recommendations? Where are you guys mounting it? I would guess front wheel wheel, but thats a bit of a run from the motor (pressure issues?)

@Larry, The ambient temps have been in the mid to upper 70's for all of my test runs with the exception of today (upper 80's)
I've been running castrol Dino oil until I nail down what my girl likes best.

@Justin,
This morning I swapped oil down to 10w-40, and did see a decent impact on my regular drive. 200-210, and touched 220 on a 5 mile stretch @ 55.

@Chuck, Jack & Dr. Clock, ,
No rags etc stuck in the fan. Can something small get through? Is there an easy method to inspect inside the doghouse? Pull the generator?

One thing I have been glazing over, The previous owner made an obvious cut exposing part of the heads to the engine compartment. Not sure why? Do you think I can tape over just see if it makes a difference before I replace?

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/gws226/photo.jpg[/IMG]

YIKES!!! Not good at all, particularly with the plastic fuel filter right there. You are asking for a fire. You need to either replace the tins (probably requiring engine removal) or at least find a way to seal it up. And please replace that plastic filter with a metal one.

As for heating, yeah that could contribute, but the temps don't really sound that bad.

My external cooler (I still also have the internal one in the fan shroud) is located behind the driver's seat, and is fitted with a thermostatically controlled fan. Beck uses a Setrab unit.

Is the actual dog-house radiator clean and clear?
Gonna throw in this old saved link; just for info: http://www.type2.com/rvanness/oilcool.htm

I was once told by a VW mechanic that if the engine is not sealed correctly the fan will cavitate which I was told occurs when the fan can not draw cooler air feom the hood vent. I don't know how true that is but I always made sure VW kits were sealed around the tins and that all the tin was installed, including to deflector plates at the push rod tubes. I also ran pure synthetic oil and used oil coolers. On my Spyder I ran twin oil coolers with electric fans. A German Formula driver told me this " listen to the valves, not smell them and spit on the engine, if it's a slow sizzle you're it is gutt!

Don't know if it will help but here's my 2 cents worth below.

If you can't hold the dip stick, you are running too hot ..Old German mechanic told me this and it's best method to date.

Might try aluminum duct tape to seal it - but it won't last long. Can't see why they would have cut that (maybe PO cleaned out a mouse nest?). Makes me suspicious if the tin is under the cylinders. I'd replace them with OEM ones. If those are chrome now - that's not great heat transfer - plus the Taiwan chrome ones don't fit worth a darn. Take picture of entire engine compartment.

George:

In an effort to bring some VW common sense back to the discussion, on original engines (which is pretty much what you have there) VW recommended 10W-20 in Winter and 10W-30 in Summer. Why people persist in thinking that they must run thicker oil than that amazes me. I even did a test years ago and went from 10W-30 to 20W-50 dino oil within 30 minutes on the same hot, summer day and my oil temps went up significantly and I posted those results on here.

It's a fact that thicker oil will cause the pressure relief valve to open when hot to bypass the engine's oil cooler, thus making it run even hotter while saving the cooler from rupturing and leaking.

If you're running a 1776 and not going over 220-225F, that's OK. Original VW beetles did that for decades. The only difference back then was that no one worried about it and they lasted well over 100,000 miles.

If you fix the obvious problems (holes in the tins, etc) and then it runs cooler, that's a good bonus.

Gordon
The Speedstah Guy from Beaufort, hiding out in cool New England

I'll take hot 20/50 over cool 10/30.. Film strength is so very important to these engines, especially where boundary layer protection is most critical.

I've done 5 solid years worth of lubrication development, developed oils along side Joe Gibbs and still haven't gathered any data logs from my engines that prove conclusively that higher viscosity oils run hotter. This includes data pulled from 5 different portions of the engine from the sump to the main oil galley.

Yesterdays 10/30 had a complete different detergency/ anti-wear balance ratio than oils of today that are primarily designed to keep engines clean. The API measures hot viscosities at 212f, above that your 30 weight could be a 20 weight and the 20/50 could be a 40 weight..

So what happens when someone uses a 50 grade oil and it gets to 225f and is then a 35-40 grade oil, is it still so thick that it pops the pressure relief and bypasses the cooler?
Think about that. I know the answer as I rigged a data logger to the primary and secondary pressure reliefs and data logged their full operation with different oils at different temperatures vs RPM-

I love this site! I learn something new every time I log on. That's a good thing.

The Type 1 dual relief oil cooling system is viscosity controlled. The oil's viscosity and thus temperature stabilize at the point where flow through the oil cooler is balanced against the pressure required to open the bypass valve. Oil flows through both paths during operation. Too thick and most goes through the bypass increasing the oil temp thus decreasing the viscosity until it can flow well through the cooler. Too thin and most goes through the cooler until the oil temp decreases increasing viscosity and pressure at the bypass valve thus allowing more oil to bypass. So for example (numbers purely for illustration purposes), 30W @ 180 F, 40W @ 200 F, and 50W @ 220 F would all have equivalent viscosity and so oil flow in the engine would look the same regardless of the oil weight used.

Higher oil weight doesn't technically cause the engine to run hotter. Lets say 30W oil passing from the galley through a bearing and then draining into the sump heats up 10 degrees (again illustration only). 50W oil would also pick up roughly 10 degrees passing through the same bearing. The thicker oil has not caused the engine to generate more heat than it did before even though the overall oil temperature is higher with the thicker oil to maintain the same viscosity.

Since the engine is keeping the oil viscosity the same at whatever equilibrium temperature that happens to be, Jake's recommendation of the thicker oil is sound because it will offer more protection than a thinner oil. I would also add that using a synthetic will offer even more protection compared to a conventional oil of the same weight.

Of course there are limits, really thick oil will either cause the oil temp to run over 240 F and cook the oil, or it won't bypass fast enough and the excess pressure will blow out the cooler seals. Also, if under constant load the oil temp keeps going up and doesn't stabilize, then the stock cooler has insufficient cooling capacity and you need to add an external unit. All this of course assumes your cooler and valves are in good working condition.

Also forgot to mention RPM effects. At operating temp, at idle the pump isn't putting out enough pressure to keep the bypass open so it's all going through the cooler.

uhhh....Justin took the words right out of my mouth! Amazing what one can learn on this site!

Jake... How do you find the time to respond to forums on 914world, shoptalk forums, aircooled technology, and on this one? And....bang out all the work that you do? I hope you get sleep somewhere in there. ;-)

Mike

How do I do it??
I don't sleep.. I'll rest when I am dead.

Plus I have assembled an orchestra to make things work here.. While I have been finishing my newest invention I have been glued to the computer doing patent work and etc, so that means forum time...

But soon I will disappear.. Seems the PR department doesn't want me posting and I tend to agree that it's time to go behind the curtain... I have a few more months of freedom, though.. :-)

What a LOSS that will be for us :o(
Doug

Wow guys. Thanks for the wealth of information. It was Jake's article posted somewhere here in the forums that initially inspired me to try 20w-50 on my first change and keep a different generation of aircooled people well informed.

Based on the information you all have kindly provided perhaps my question really should be what is a safe operating temperature for my Type 1? Using Gene berg's article as a basic, he suggests anything over 225 is on the order of shorting engine life. Though he does not go into any detail as you have here regarding weighing oil viscosity as Justin has illustrated.

Assuming all is well (there are obviously a few other factors I must address first) What can I do to capture the piece of mind factor? Spending my rides staring at the temps does take away a bit from the overall enjoyment!

It actually sounds like running an oil cooler w/ 20w-50 could potentially have a negative effect on using the thicker oil. (again as Justin pointed out, assuming the 50 isn't too thick for my application.)


To answer a few of the other questions posted here I have stock tins, and the stock black valve covers.

Thanks again!
George

Update:
I pulled the motor shortly after all of your comments. Upon closer inspection the airgaps between the cylinders was completely clogged... I discovered lots of goodies! No remains of a rag though :)but certainly a few items had been lodged there that were from the original build. I'm guessing the previous owner cut the cylinder covers trying to get in there to see what was going on.

There was enough concerns and the to list just kept building as broke things down so I am just going to rebuild it.

I should hopefully be back on the road by end of September.

Thanks again for all of your input.

George

George, your brother Bill tells me that I should shame you into joining some of the Speedster get-togethers once you have your car sorted. Conside yourself so shamed ;-)

Hi Lane,

I would be very happy to join you for a drive. Lots of big boxes should be waiting at my doorstep tomorrow.

Dont fget to check the THERMOSTAT .
And that it operates the air flaps .
Ensure you have ALL the tins , including the lowers.

If you dont get the Deep Purple , at least use a ZDDP additive (lucas etc)

Better yet, use Brad Penn oil.

Lane:

Where do you find Brad Penn in SC? I checked and Columbia was the closest {8>( so I'm buying several cases up in Mass and bringing them back with me.

gn

I have to order it. As a matter of fact, I need to do that now.

OR

I could pay you for a case and get it when you come down.

I won't be returning until the first part of October and won't know how much space I'll have until the week before we leave, when I get everything staged to pack into the truck and can see what it looks like. Plus, I have to pick up a set of Fuchs wheels along the way and need space for those, too, so we'll see what I can bring.

Just as a comparison, there are at least a dozen places selling Brad Penn within an hour of this house, and none within 4 hours of Beaufort.

Hi Dave,

I ordered all new tinware all the way around... even the typeIV supertins. I currently do not have thermostatically controlled flaps... and I did not order a new set. The coldest day this car will probably ever see is 60.

Most items are now in and bottom end is ready to go... new heads are out for delivery, Pistons are still making the trip from Cali (Friday hopefully.) Aircooled called yesterday to let me know the ratio rockers and the pushrods are back ordered; but that shouldn't stop me from mocking things up.

I need to focus my attention more towards the compartment seal. I didn't realize the level of isolation people were achieving in relation to what I actually had.

As a reference.
http://www.kitcarmag.com/featuredvehicles/0807kc_porsche_speedster_frenzy/photo_04.html

I'm not sure how anyone gets to back plugs like that. Typically i would remove my "custom" fabricated AC ducting tin from under the car and reach up from under to get the back plugs. Now I guess this becomes an exercise in removing the dells every time I need to change plugs.



Gordon,

Where is Columbia did you find Brad Penn?

" I currently do not have thermostatically controlled flaps... and I did not order a new set. The coldest day this car will probably ever see is 60. "

George;
The thermostat / flaps are to HEAT the engine quickly . if they arent present the full airflow
keeps the engine and oil from warming to operating temps.
Engine machine surfaces (bearings) wear faster when cold.


Dont know what "typeIV supertins" are . The original style are recommended for T1 .

Hi Dave,

These are the super tins I ordered. I made a note somewhere in my research that they were not originally intended for Type 1's.
http://cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=268

I understand the purpose of the flaps are to quickly raise engine temps to optimal level. Since the car will never see low ambient temps... am I wrong to dismiss them completely?