New IM cost

Henry mailed me the quote on my new car listing all of my requested options (and I've added a couple more since then). Suffice to say it will cost more than a very nice restored original Speedster - BUT - it will handle and stop better, won't rust, and an original IS NOT a 12 second street car. Needless to say, I will keep this one 'til death do us part (literally or figuratively).

If anyone is SERIOUSLY interested in having a Speedster built with options and wants to know the cost let me know and I'll email you the list I have, but that's not to say Henry may be giving me a "second time buyer" break on some of the prices.

George selling his speedster has got me athinkin...How long have the rest of you out there owned your speedster. I've owned my 84 IM for 3 1/2 years. If I sell this car, the 'death til we part' will be wife induced!
Ron

George,
"Suffice to say it will cost more than a very nice restored original Speedster".
There aren't too many nice restored originals left. Consider that they only made something like 4000 of them.
Then, when you find a "restored" one for sale, the price is at least double that of a replica. And it's still an old rusted car!

I do agree with you about the replicas. They are better than the originals. And have greater potential than the originals considering all the parts that are available now vs. then.

Greg B

REGARDING KEEPING VS. SELLING A SPEEDSTER, MAY I STRONGLY SUGGEST NEVER SELLING ONE UNLESS YOU HAVE THE NEXT ONE IN THE WORKS. I SOLD MY V.S. ON A WHIM EIGHT MONTHS BACK AND STILL HAVE'NT RECOVERED. AS THE "FUN" ACCOUNT BUILDS BACK UP, I WILL BE ORDERING ANOTHER. YOU CANNOT REPLACE THE FUN FACTOR WITH ANY OTHER CAR.

George, I would be sincerely curious what a tricked-out IM Carrera would go for. Please shoot me a rough number.

My current very used IM was purchased to test the Speedster replica water, and to get used to messing with air cooled engines again after a 20 year break. Hopefully by early to mid-summer current car will be mil-spec, such as it can be. At that time I will look towards newer/better, if the economy has improved, or will figure current car fits the bill.

I would be curious what a new IM would cost vs. pricing an Outlaw 356 coupe from Parts Obsolete where they do a frame off restoation plus all sorts of suspension/braking, etc., mondo upgrades. Little stock remains of the car. I will call them to get a rough price. Granted two different cars but they both make my heart beat faster.

What size tires are you planning on running with your Carrera replica? With all those ponies you will likely need all the rubber in the rear that you can fit.

Well, I had mine for about two years and would not have sold it except that I planned on replacing engine/transaxle (more power and different ratios) and wheel types, so it just seemed simpler to have a new car built. So its not like I am selling and not owning a Porsche replica.

(Message Edited 1/24/2003 10:48:34 AM)

Erik, the car (less engine and transaxle) will cost $38,000 to $39,000 as it is rather "optioned out". The rebuilt to "as new" 901 5-speed with Porsche 904 input shaft and custom ratios and a torque-biased limited slip differential (not Quaife) from Carquip is around $5,200 ($1,000 more if you have no exchange core transaxle).

The engine: (Precision Alloy TF-1 case with .100" cam drop, Scat flanged ultra-light 86mm crank and flywheel, Magnum steel .100" drop cam drive gearset, Crowercustom titanium connecting rods (5.7), LN Eng. 94mm biral cylinders, Aircooled.net "super squishy" "C" pistons, Total Seal 2nd compression reings, CNC ported 044 heads with manley S/S valves, Bugpack 4046 dual valve springs with titanium spring retainers, custom grind Web Cam 86b camshaft on a steel billet blank instead of chilled cast-iron blank, Pauter Machine 1.3 ratio roller rocker arms, Schubeck composite lifters, Autocraft tapered chrome-moly pushrods, KP stage 1 clutch pressure plate with "Copperhead" friction plate, Mallory adjustable advance mechanical distributor with Pertronix II and Bosch "red" coil, S/S 1 3/4" merged header and 2 1/2" muffler, welded-balanced fan, VW type 3 cooler in type 181 ("Thing") doghouse shroud (no fresh air heat vents), MOCAL thermostat with Setrab auxilliary oil cooler/fan, Pre-Luber engine oil priming system, dual NOS Dellorto 48 DRLA carburetors with 42mm venturis, CB Performance hex-bar carb linkage/filter boxes, K&N air filters, Fluidampr harmonic balancer. I don't even want to add up all of the engine stuff.

I plan to run 185/65x15" tires as the limited slip differential wiil keep wheelspin under control.


(Message Edited 1/24/2003 3:41:02 PM)

Erik, an "Outlaw" resto Porsche coupe is still an old Porsche coupe, e.g., outmoded, heavy, and subject to body/chassis rustout.

Maybe so George, but the cars at Parts Obsolete are jewels to my eyes, and of course they are real Porsche's. I will give them a call for a ballpark price later today. My guess is your car and a frame-off PO restoration with retro mods will be fairly close in price. I will post what I learn.

Erik, they are not "real Porsches" they are what is called "resto-mods" and have really flukey resale value.

Perhaps it is splitting hairs George but if it rolled down the production line in Stutgart, Germany I don't care what mods are done later, its a Porsche through and through, though I agree with you 100% that resale would be eating a turd sandwich as PO Outlaws are an acquired taste. For those newbies interested looked up PartsObsolete.com and click on "Outlaw" link.

I just spoke with Gary of Parts Obsolete. Unless George leaves me some hefty dinero in his Will I won't be able to afford one of these Outlaws, though they are sweet and he is a nice guy, Gary that is, George too if he leaves me some jack.

Two year wait, at least. Sigh. Most of the cars they do are used for vintage racing, average budget spent with PO is $50-to-70k (which doesn't include the price of the car), sigh. Some cars in the photos cost in excess of $130,000 after all is said and done. Right, sigh. PO doesn't give estimates, they bill by the hour ($65 per) plus parts. Oh well.

Uh oh, here we go again... There seems to be a soft spot when it comes to what constiutes a "real" Porsche. If a 914 was nameplated as a VW in Europe, then a Type IV isn't real, I'm told. Now I find out that even an original 356 isn't real, if it's been modified (by someone besides Henry, maybe?). Is this odd to anyone but me? A lot of time has been spent on the forum talking about the snobby "real" Porsche guys looking down their noses at mere replicas. I've talked with Gary Emory on the phone- he is nothing but entusiastic about speedster replicas, and what he does too. Perhaps we should take a lesson from him?

Stan, real is real, repro is repro, real but not original is resto-mod. If you enter a modified or even non-original Porsche in a PCA concours event you will find out what the difference is.

But nobody (on this forum, anyhow) cares- that's why your car will be as cool as Gary's are. A 100 point councours automobile is extremely cool- as a work of art, but not really as a car. The point of our replicas isn't to win shows, because nobody really knows what to do with us anyhow. The point of my car (to me, and I suspect to you) is to own something that is the exactly what I want, without paying $75K+ for something I can't (ever) drive. "Is it real?" is really a question without a point- its a real car to me, more so than an original.

Amen, Stan!
The more "real 356" owners I meet here in L.A. the more I realize some of them "get it" and some of them don't (or won't). Enlightened Porsche people know that the replica market benefits them by keeping the precious parts pipeline primed and pumping (try saying that fast).
I met a 356 owner last weekend who just spent $45,000 restoring his '63 Coupe. His car was fantastic, spotless, a jewel, but he took one look at mine and said, "That's a beautiful car...and I'll bet you're not afraid to drive it, either." I smiled.

If I could afford a real 356, in pristine condition I'd honestly think that replicas were shit. come on now...really..they're REPLICAS! If you owned a Rolex and met someone wearing a Hong Kong knock-off what would you think...neat, I bet you can wear that everywhere..even to the gym. Give me a break! But I can't afford a real one and I own a replica and I think they're great. Besides, I'd take a Boxster S over an old 356 Porsche any day.
Ron

Here's a funny story for you. I owned a few years back an Italia made by IM. This car was hand made by Henry's dad Frank Risner in Italy, with a 290HP Ford 302. Was a beautiful car if you havn't seen one. 2400Lbs , front engine, designed by Scaglietti. Anyway there were only about 600 ever made between '67 and '73. Because it was so rare , everybody wanted to know if it was a kit car. Now I drive a replicia that everybody wants to know if it's real. Go figure.

Ron,
John Leader had a Boxster, which he sold for his JPS. George could easily buy a Boxster for what he will have in his new car, but is instead building the "ulitmate" replica speedster. You know, George could probably buy a nice "real" speedster for what he will have in his new car. I don't think of this in terms of "real" and "fake", I think of it in terms of beauty and function. I am not a laid back person. I cannot envision myself EVER really driving a real speedster, anymore than I can see myself hanging a Rembrandt on my wall- I have too much appreciation for what they are. A "real" speedster would be something to be protected, and be a thing of beauty I could never use. My replica is 98% of the beauty, with infinately more usability than I could ever achieve with a "real" speedster.

Ron,

The difference between fake rolex watches and replica Speedsters is that the fake watches suck and the replica Speedsters can be better than originals.

Right now I have a 91 Miata that has had a number of upgrades, and a 68 Ghia cabriolet that is original. To me, the Ghia is the real car, not because the Miata has been upgraded, but I have always thought of a Miata as a 'replica sports car'. Miata copied Lotus, Fiat, MGB, and what else in creating this car. They wanted to 'recreate' the sports car fever of the 50's and 60's.

The only difference with the Speedster is that it is a direct copy of a 'real' car, whereas the Miata copied a number of 'real' cars.

My 2 cents worth

Robert Carley

My two daughters bought me a new Rolex "Explorer" for Fathers' Day one year. It was supposed to be a chronograph but kept lousy time and I sent it back to Rolex twice while under warranty for checking and adjustment and it still kept bad time. The second time Rolex charged me about $400 claiming that it was damaged! Sold it and bought a watch that keeps good time.

(Message Edited 1/31/2003 12:15:56 PM)

Robert, I owned a 67 MGB, which was based on an MGA, which was probably based of another MG. They were all based on something. I find it hard to call a Miata a replica because it's based on sport cars from the 50/60s era. You might as well call the Z3 a replica too (the Z4 I call plain ugly). The Miata is a FAR superior car to the speedster repicas. I still bought an IM over a Miata, because I love the look of the 356. I think we are all Porsche wannabes. (this should stir up the hornets nest...what the hell, we need a good dust up every once in the while).
Ron

I guess because I was around in the 50s and 60s, when the sports car craze was really beginning, I see most 'sports cars' being produced today as 'retro replicas' (albeit with more power, reliability, etc.)
If I hear the term 'sports car' today, I think of an MGA/B, AH, Lotus Elan, Sprite, 356, XKE, etc. Must be getting old...

When I bought my Miata (three years ago), I had just sold a TR6 that I had restored, and was tired of spending more time under the car than in the car. The Miata is a great car - reliable, strong, warm, etc., but it's still a Miata. Most modern sports cars have been engineered to the point that there are no strong characteristics in them, and require a very short learning curve to drive them.

I like the Miata and modern 'sports cars', but I still remember side curtains, troublesome electrics, no heat on cold days, leaky hoods/tops, and Saturday morning tinkering.

Gee, do you think if I find a Speedster I can have all that again ;-).

Robert

I have owned several sports cars, including a couple of "real" Porsches (and more than one Miata, too). But, I always wanted a 356. Last year, when I finally decided to get serious about acquiring one, I looked high and low. Every decent 356 I found (from nice ones to completely restored beauties) were more than I bargained for - either more potential work or more actual money.
Then I discovered the replica segment. I met with Kirk Duncan and John Steele - quickly realizing what I really wanted was a reliable, workable, driveable Speedster...namely, a replica...built to my specifications.
Am I a "Porsche wannabe?"
Actually, I'm a Porsche "used to be."
Would I rather have a fully restored, pristine "real" Speedster instead of my JPS? Ron probably won't believe me, but the answer is, "No."


(Message Edited 1/31/2003 8:55:27 PM)

Unlike many of you, I had never owned a "sports car" before. The closest thing I had was a Volvo PV544 which had a lot of the sound and feel, but not the look. Like John L., I concluded that the replica segment was the way to go, rather than trying to deal with the issues which 35+ year old cars present. I had looked a Morgans and real 356's. My dad used to bemoan his "touring cars" of the twenties with their curtains and drafty interiors and couldn't wait until he had a sedan. A car after all, he concluded, is transportation, period. BULLFEATHERS! I'm sure he is looking down and grinning when I take the Speedster for a ride, drafts, rattles, clattering, groaning whining wonderful car that it is.
John H.
I'll step down off of my Dreft box now.

Try rebuilding a roller bearing "REAL" Porsche 356 engine. Now tell us that a real 356 is better than a type 1 356 replica. Cost, aggravation, performance potential, ...

It's all about money. If you can afford to buy a real speedster for 70 thousand plus and it's your second or third or fourth car, you can probably afford to get it fixed.
Ron

I think a Porsche wannabe is anyone who puts Porsche script on their car. I mean...why else would you do it. You're trying to pass your car off as a Porsche..are you not?
Ron

Ron, dadgummit, you caught me with my proverbial pants down. However, in my defense, it could also be argued that anyone who drives a replica which looks like a Porsche, script present or not, is also a Porsche wannbe, right? One could be driving a car that does not look anything like a production car, present or past, and be free of that assertion, but those who choose to drive Speedster replicas do so because they do like the look.

I don't see how putting Porsche script on is any different than putting a faux plastic body on a VW pan. Are we to put VW insignia on them? It IS
all about money. The "real" thing is financially unattainable for many of us. But the replica's extra benfits of better performance,reliability,
handling, and helping to keep the Speedster mystique alive is many times more important to me. When asked if "real" or not, I respond better than "real"!. If I wanted a "Real" Porsche, I'd buy a used 911 which I'm sure many of us could afford...but they are not Speedsters. Speedsters RULE!!
Just my 2 cents.
BD

If putting a Porsche script on your car makes you a "Porsche wannabe" (and I assume you're using that term as a put down), what on earth does having a fiberglass 356 body on your VW-powered tube frame make you? A fraud?
C'mon. By definition a replica is a "recreation" of an original. Some guys take care of all the details (including full Porsche badging), others don't.
I think we should stop beating each other up on this real versus replica issue and acknowledge the fact that we all love the "design" of these cars...the shape...the lines...the concept.
Speaking as someone who has driven both real and faux Speedsters, the real ones are pretty, but they're nowhere near as good a car as my replica is.
And as far as trying to fool people into thinking it's a "real Porsche," one look at that hand-brake between my bucket-seats pretty well gives it away for anyone who would actually care...namely, "real Porsche" owners.

(Message Edited 2/2/2003 7:13:22 PM)

My opinion is that driving a 356 replica makes you just that, a driver of a Porsche replica. Driving the same car with Porsche script makes you a Porsche wannabe. Come on, owners who put Porsche script on their cars are trying to pass them off as real Porsches. 99% of the public has no idea what the difference is between a real 356 and a replica. That said, my 84 IM has Porsche script on it (was on the car when I bought it) and I'm contemplating taking them off. I'm getting tired of having to explain to people who ask (and many do) that no, it's not a real Porsche, it's a replica. I don't have any problem with owners who put Porsche script on their cars...each to their own, but lets call a spade a spade. I admit that I do want people to think that I'm driving a real Porsche and I bet that most of you out there with Porsche script on your cars think the same thing.

Oh yeah! Definitely. I'm a wanna be. I want to be a 911 Carrera 4 owner.

My thoughts on the matter are the same as John's. I Never try to pass the car off as a real Porsche and don't really care what real Porsche owners think. Had the car built for my pleasure and that is what makes me happy. I also have a real Porsche and dont care what people think about that either again it is for my pleasure.Wanna be hardly. I can afford a real Speedster but would much rather have my replica. On the other hand an 89 911 Turbo Carrera Coupe now we are talking!!! Well thats my two cents and have a nice night.
Jerry

Imitation is the highest form of compliment. Maybe some people are secretly trying to pass-off their McSpeedsters as originals, I always figure my car is a tribute to a classic automotive design.

As far as wanna be or not, that isn't the heart of the question to me. Few of us have original works of art on the walls of our house (though I suspect George will enlighten us about his collecton), we gladly settle for limited-edition prints or even framed posters if they strike our fancy. Anytime I see a replica, especially if it is well-executed, I see a limited-edition tribute to the original Speedster.

Nice job Eric, couldn't have said it better myself.

Sorry, that's Erik.

I love my mustached Mona Lisa print.