New JPS Subaru vs Used VS 1776

For my taste, this is a no-brainer.  My decision would be to buy Troy's car, since it's well-sorted, affordable, and you can flip it if you decide to upgrade to a JPS/Subi.  This is a confluence of circumstances, with you looking, and Troy having an excellent candidate for your first Speedster.  Keep it for a few months, making notes of likes/dislikes, and use that data for your JPS.  Best of luck in whatever you decide. 

You also have to figure in the wait time of 2 years for a JPS & registration hassle in California.

We are similar in skill and driving desires, but you have much better weather & places to drive. 

I would go with Troy's car.  A well-sorted car is a thing of beauty.  Proximity to the manufacturer was huge for me which was a major consideration with going with a Beck.

You'll get buy with your wits, help from this board, your local air-cooled mechanic, and VS.

I love my Beck & wouldn't trade it.  I like the design the best.  Carey is awesome, & I can take my car home for work when I need to.

I think Suby engines are cool & mid-engine designs are great, but they would take away part of the nostalgic experience away for me.

FWIW - No need to wait in line at the DMV in January. I just went through the SB100 process with my Beck and they have plenty of spots left. 

Wait, you registered a beck in CA in July with SB100?  No smog?  I thought that was near impossible?  What was the process?  What engine?

Oh, and I would look at a JPS subi not an SAS Subi cause 2 years is too long for me.

Go with Troy's car. It's all sorted out, it's a good price and you can have it now.

There are several acvw mechanics in your area so getting your car serviced would not be an issue.

It seems that quite a large number of new owners sell within a couple years for a variety of reasons. The price point of Troy's VS pretty much guarantees you won't lose much if you decide to sell.

You've driven one of these replicas before, right? 

AFAIK, the first 500 special construction/assembled vehicles registered during the year can get SB100 exemption. As long as they haven't run out, it doesn't matter when you register. Though you should look up the laws about it, there may be other caveats I've forgotten.

I've driven 3 late 80's Intermeccanicas with 1600 and 1776 engines. Never driven a VS.  I believe I know what I'm getting into from a driving perspective. It's the mechanical and reliability aide of carbs that makes me nervous.

Yep, registered it the end of June and my sequence number was 150 something, so they are nowhere near to 500 allotted for the year. Process is DMV to CHP to BAR back to BAR so they can check what they say you need to fix (if needed) then back to DMV. Engine is Raby Type IV 2270cc. Couldn't be happier with my Beck 

I've built both Subi powered cars, and VW air cooled cars and both have their issues. For the amout your intending to drive each year and the fact you don't want to work on it, make sure you have a great, not just good mechanic. The subi is more money but I've seen the quality of Subi speedsters out there and I can see they are going to have their own list of issues.

 

I don't know Troy, but he does flip a few cars and seems to know his way around sorting out issuses they have. As we all know new custom car builds go through a teething period where there are a few issues no matter how good the builder is. It is just the nature of the beast. When I build cars I like to drive then for the first 50 miles to make sure we've shaken out most of the monkeys. The bennifit to Troy's car is it most likely is void of monkeys by now. This does not mean you will have completely trouble free driving for the next 30k or even the next 30 miles. It simply means someone else besides you have delt with a lot of the headakes.

 

Whatever you go with, make the step, the weather is not getting any better, and there is no time like the pressent. Live the Dream and stop wiping sleep out of your eyes....

Im a JPS guy but this is a no brainer. Buy Troy's car. Also Im In Simi and Thousand Oaks. If u want to do lunch at the Lazy dog and pick my brain let me know.

I agree with the above posters.  Buy Troy's car and drive it for a year or so.  You'll know by then whether or not you're happy with your car.  If your satisfied, great.  If you're not, you can sell your speedster for a small loss and order a JPS water pumper.

You'll know GERD is there for your lunch when you see his car in the parking lot

^BWAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAA!!

 

Mac - save yourself all the angst and buy the car Troy is selling!! Troy is a good friend and is VERY conscientious about properly preparing the car before he sells them (at a very good price). He wouldn't be able to do the amount of business he does if his product was crap.

 

Buy that bad boy and meet us in Malibu for a run through Mulholland!!!!

Troys car and twice on Sunday but you better hurry...he sells those things in less time than it takes to say speedster

SOLD I HOPE IT WAS TO U MAC

 

@coolryde - what kind of issues one should expect with a suby?

I always thought that they were toublefree with little maintenance

 

Z

Jps 2332

"Im a JPS guy but this is a no brainer. Buy Troy's car. Also Im In Simi and Thousand Oaks. If u want to do lunch at the Lazy dog and pick my brain let me know."

 

Boy would that be "slim pickins"

Twas me.  ... Even though you guys were so indecisive 

 

If all goes to plan I will have possession on Saturday.  Troy has been great to deal with.

 

Would love to pick what brains you got and go for a run with anyone in the area.  My daughter is a Lazy Dog fangirl so I know it well.  

 

Already planning the additions ... (2nd mirror, MPH speedo, full tonneau, wife wants a new steering wheel, might swap stereo, and the madness goes on ...)

 

Oh, and guess I should become a supporting member at some point.

HEY BONE HEAD SLIM PICKENS HERE THINKS A ROCK STORE CRUISE SHOULD BE ON FOR THIS SATURDAY AS TROY IS DELIVERING THE CAR TO MULHOLAND ON SAT

 

Zdouga, The Suby has 35-40 years of newer technology baked in it and for the most part they are trouble free.  The parts are also better being made in Japan and the USA.  What you have to consider with a Suby is the Plumbing and the EFI.  These things need to be dialed in.  But when they are, its just a turn of the key and your off.    

Since you all instantly gave me the nickname Mac I've changed my forum name to my work nickname (something our ex-Marine COO starting calling me) - DMAC.  Cheers.

 DMAC WHEN DO U TAKE DELIVERY ON SAT

 

Congrats on the purchase DMac!

 

Looks like around 10am.  I still have to get insurance sorted first as well.

Going to Del Mar for the races this weekend, or I would have suggested a run myself...

Looks like Troy and I need to meet later in the day so no run on Saturday, sorry.  Also in insurance hell so not even sure I can drive the car this weekend  .  Troy has helped a lot (been a great purchase experience so far) just dealing with other people seems to be the problem ...

TRIPLE A DMAC INSURED FOR BUILD COST FOR ME NO MILEAGE RESTRICTMENTS AND THEY PAID OFF IN FULL 2009 MY COST WAS 300 A YEAR

What did you call the car (e.g. 1960 Porsche Speedster Replica or 1960 VW, etc.)?  Also sent you a Dialog. That seems to be a big factor in how easy this goes.  Thanks.

1973 modified  vw bug

Though the question was directed at Koolrydes, this is one I'd like to chime in on.  The Subaru itself is a damn solid engine aside from certain years with known headgasket issues.  These are normally addressed prior to install (e.g. either a rebuild or a headgasket replacement) but it is a point that should be confirmed.   With the subie, you do have all the glories of EFI, etc.  The question becomes is how did they make it work.  The Subie folks, in their infinite wisdom, mated the chassis and engine harness.  With a lot of engine swaps, the engine harness and control package (computer or computers) standalone from the chassis.  When they are integrated, they must be carefully and intelligently UNmated.  Otherwise, you need to do a standalone engine management system.  When I say "intelligently" what I mean is that I looked at what was needed to do this and when "oh to hell with that" and researched a different way to FI, including DBW.

 

The standalone engine management systems out there run from very intuitive and easy to WTF - did you just fall off your drafting stool???  For the latter type, plan on spending a significant amount of time and money in the dyno room having it tuned.  Most come out of the box running stupid fat and will remain that way until adjusted.  Not really an excuse for this, but there is a lot of it out there.  If you buy these, buy them 100% sorted, not "oh we just gotta do a little tunin'..."  

 

Running the cooling system isn't that hard, but it must be done in a workmanlike fashion.  Need to look for where the lines are, what type of material are they, how are they secured to the chassis, how is the coolant filled, how is it burped, etc., and are there electric fans to provide additional cooling as needed.  Next - where does the air duct to?  Seeing some stuff with "inlet" for the air, and no outlet - which means heat builds AND the faster you go (if front mounted) the more lift you have at the front of the car.

 

That said, we've got a couple that will go subie (of the four projects we have on the back burner).  I love Subaru engines and that will be what I use on my personal driver.  What I suspect is the point of Koolrydes post, is that a subie build is more complicated, and there are significant penalties for poor workmanship.  One poorly soldered wire buried in an inaccessible piece of the harness will PARK you and it's not something you're going to fix roadside.  Workmanship is everything. 

 

Note: - not a stone tossed at any of our vendors - I am assuming your workmanship is stellar.  Home builds run the gamut from extraordinary to bring a fire extinguisher...

 

angela

Girl, get my name right "CoolRydes"   lol

 

Angie, as usual you are very right in your statements. I would like to add some of what I have learned over the past few years of working with these power plants.

 

Yes, the engines are pretty bullet proof. An air cooled engine with fuel injection can also be made pretty bullet proof also. They just like to leak oil and require some tweaking every now and then.

 

With the Subi power plant there are some things that you need to know going in to make them live and last in your application. 

 

1) Like Angela stated it is very important to have a good stand alone fuel management system to run your engine, and control the fuel pump and cooling fans, as well as timing and fuel trim among other things.

 

2) Cooling system is a tough nut to crack for most people, they either place to large of a cooling system in place (yes this is as bad for the engine as not having a big enough cooling system). Or they can not get it to work correctly. You have to understand both fluid and cooling dynamics to make a good cooling system.

 

3) Proper gearing. You have to remember that the Subi engine was designed around running at 2000-2200 rpm at freeway speed. A lot of people out there try to hook them up to a VW trans, that has gearing that runs the engine at around 3200 rpm at freeway speed for proper cooling fan speed to keep the air cooled engine cool. Do this with a subi engine and you will strain the cooling system and shorten the engine life.

 

Is it possible to run a subi, yes.

Will it cost a good amount of money to do the swap correctly, yes

Will it be worth it in the long run, yes if you plan on putting on 15k miles per year or more.

 

Most of these cars are fun weekend cars that will be lucky to see 15k in five years. In that case it is simply not worth the investment in mho....

 

my .02 cents

I understand your logic, CoolRydes, but what about the issue of parts quality?  VW engine parts seem to be either German (good and quite expensive), or Chinese/Brazilian/WTF (cheap and lousy).  The balance seems to be tipping more and more to the lousy side as time goes on.  If I were building a car now (well, having one built) I'd lean toward Subi power for the expected reliability as much as anything else.  What're your thoughts on this issue?

I HAVE NO MECHANICAL SKILLS OTHER THAN A PENCIL WHAT SO EVER. BUT WOULDNT YOU JUST TAKE THE EXISTING COOLING SYSTEM THAT THE SUBY ENGINE HAS AND INSTALL IT IN THE REPLICA?

Actually that is a great idea Gerddd. The only problem with this idea is.

1) the motor is now in the back and the radiator needs to be in the front in direct air flow to use the stock radiator.

2) unless you cut some pretty big holes in the front of the speedster to match the original holes that the subi had, you will not get enough air flow through the radiator.

3) Last, you need to also understand now that the engine is in the rear and the radiator up front, your going to need some long coolant lines that also act as heat sinks. Thus cooling the fluid even more, this is not good because you will not get the thermostat to open, or if you run a restrictor plate the coolant may be too cold and cause damage to the engine.

 

Cooling systems and thermodynamics are very tricky and should not be messed with by your average shade tree mechanic.

GUESS ILL STICK TO WORKING ON VINCES SPEEDSTER

LOL!

Thanks much, Angela and Kevin. As a guy just fixing to tackle this I'll keep what you say in mind. 

 

Very interested in Kevin's take on gearing. I'm planning on building a trans with a 3.44 R&P, but, even so, it is my impression that my stock early Suby 2.2 makes its torque peak right in the neighborhood of 4800 rpm (the later "interference" engines doing so at a much more street-friendly 3600). 

 

As both of these figures are a bit higher than one's expected highway cruising speed even with a stock mid '60s bug tranny, why should one expect any cooling trouble running the engine all day long even at 70 mph and, say, 3500 rpm? 

 

Especially as the engine in a replicar like ours is pushing half the weight it was designed to push and--in the case of the Speedster guys at least--in a slipperier package?

 

Speaking thermodynamically and in terms of fluid dynamics, how's this "straining the cooling system" problem supposed to happen?

The speedster is not half the weight nor is it more aerodynamic.  Porsche's 356 coupes were pretty darn aerodynamic with some posting as low as .29 to .31 depending your source.  But the speedster never was particularly aerodynamic with its stubby windshield, buffeting winds, and open cockpit.  Most sources cite around .40 for the CD.  A Subaru legacy station wagon (common donor) from 93 to 99 is .32 to .34.  As far as half the weight, most of the built speedsters are in the 1700ish pound category.  I would count on a subie powered one to be in the 1800 to 1900 pound range with a liquid cooling system, electronics, usually a heater, and more if it has a/c.  The older subies were pretty light cars.  We had a 95 impreza that we weighed out at a hair under 2,400 with a/c, completely stock.  The 600 pounds at highway speed is less of an issue than the aerodynamic drag.  Friction is your killer for maintaining speed, not weight.  A speedster with a water cooled engine is LESS aerodynamic than air cooled because there is a requirement to flow air over the radiator and exit it from the vehicle.  As water cooled speedsters retain their stock engine grills, etc., you are ADDING inefficiency (thus a worse CD).

 

RPM does impact your cooling.  Any condition that burns more fuel, creates more heat.  So load and RPM BOTH increase heat. This is often compensated by increased air flow at highway speed, which is why most cars run cooler on the highway than in slow stop n go traffic.  With most of the cars I've done odd ball engine swaps with, my cooling issues at high RPM are usually due to a flow issue, e.g. a hose collapsing, or excessive speed through the radiator which a good thermostat can take care of along with proper cooling lines.  Most of my cooling issues with odd ball engine swaps are LOW RPM, high load (e.g. climbing big hills in a high gear), or stop and go where I'm accelerating (building heat) followed by slowing -poor air flow and low RPM for circulation.  The heat buildup becomes cumulative and can overtax the cooling system.  Thank God for thermostatically controlled electric fans!

 

At any rate, my prediction is if you ever have a cooling issue it will first rear it's ugly head in 105 degree stop and go traffic, not so much on the highway provided you have the highway RPM down enough that you are letting the air flow overcome the heat created by the engine in a water cooled car.

 

angela (did not sleep in a motel 6 last night - so take it with a grain of salt)

Angela,

 

Again with a lot of strong points. I will add that you can over tax a cooling system at high speed if you do not have enough air flow over the radiator, too much or not enough fluid flow, and a few other things that can cause a progressive over heating. Meaning it might run cool for the first 30 minutes, and then as you continue on your trip, the coolant gauge will start to clime. Making an power plant live in something should be left up to the engineers, or the really qualified. If you have a lot of time and money to throw away, go for it. I just do not think this is a DIY thing.