new old 356 ; help identifying engine

GUD oil filter:}

Certainly a project ,the part circled is the fan shroud mechanical thermostat that operates the flaps in the shroud. Most are seized and or not hooked up via a rod from the stat to the back of the shroud. If you remove it you need to be sure to position the shroud flaps in the open position.

All of the engine tin is missing!

@petekeys

Nice score on that project car, Pete!

Looking forward to following your project and seeing you driving the end result. Best of luck and keep those questions coming, the brain-pool on here will guide the way.

It'll buff out

@petekeys

How would you like a Type 3/4 service manual?

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/ar...pe3_4_vagservice.php

Pete, as Alan mentioned, that part is the thermostat for the flaps that control the warm up/cooling from your motor. Given it’s been rotated 90° (ground clearance?) and the shaft is missing, it’s obviously inoperative.

You’ll find a lot opinions wrt their necessity, mine is that VW designed them for a reason. A missing or inop system slows the warm-up of your engine, causing increased wear. Or, as Alan alluded to, closed flaps and overheating.

Clark is an authority on thermostats, flaps, and Aircooled VW in general. Here’s his take on the set-up.
https://www.awesomepowdercoat.com/vw-thermostats

If it were me, I’d do a compression test on your motor to make sure it doesn’t need more work, then strip it to the long block and replace all that “cooling system” with Clark’s tin and a Raby DTM shroud. (I would also recommend a Cooled Thing shroud from Concept1 but apparently they don’t make them for a Type IV)

I can’t tell what carbs those are, they look to be Solex 34PICT or Weber’s ICT’s I think I’d lose those and replace them with Kadrons, Dellorto DRLAs, or Weber IDF of IDA (not familiar enough with Webers to know which one)

And I’d lose that oil cooler as use a remote. That preheats your cooling air going into fan, which only compounds the issues of your missing tins. I believe Alan or @Stan Galat has a template for making supplemental tin to go from the OEM VW tin to your engine compartment  

Welcome to the madness.  

@Gordon Nichols posted:

@petekeys

How would you like a Type 3/4 service manual?

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/ar...pe3_4_vagservice.php

Awesome thanks downloaded and reading

If anyone has a parts list anywhere too - I don't really know what missing off the engine

@Alan Merklin posted:

Certainly a project ,the part circled is the fan shroud mechanical thermostat that operates the flaps in the shroud. Most are seized and or not hooked up via a rod from the stat to the back of the shroud. If you remove it you need to be sure to position the shroud flaps in the open position.

I had no idea thats what it was - so thanks.  The fan shroud has clearly been changed to an upright one - noting what others have said in the thread suggesting replacing with more effective alternatives, which I'll investigate

@dlearl476 posted:

Pete, as Alan mentioned, that part is the thermostat for the flaps that control the warm up/cooling from your motor. Given it’s been rotated 90° (ground clearance?) and the shaft is missing, it’s obviously inoperative.

You’ll find a lot opinions wrt their necessity, mine is that VW designed them for a reason. A missing or inop system slows the warm-up of your engine, causing increased wear. Or, as Alan alluded to, closed flaps and overheating.

Clark is an authority on thermostats, flaps, and Aircooled VW in general. Here’s his take on the set-up.
https://www.awesomepowdercoat.com/vw-thermostats

If it were me, I’d do a compression test on your motor to make sure it doesn’t need more work, then strip it to the long block and replace all that “cooling system” with Clark’s tin and a Raby DTM shroud. (I would also recommend a Cooled Thing shroud from Concept1 but apparently they don’t make them for a Type IV)

I can’t tell what carbs those are, they look to be Solex 34PICT or Weber’s ICT’s I think I’d lose those and replace them with Kadrons, Dellorto DRLAs, or Weber IDF of IDA (not familiar enough with Webers to know which one)

And I’d lose that oil cooler as use a remote. That preheats your cooling air going into fan, which only compounds the issues of your missing tins. I believe Alan or @Stan Galat has a template for making supplemental tin to go from the OEM VW tin to your engine compartment  

Welcome to the madness.  

great response thanks for taking the time to write it.

Compression test : now why didn't I think f that - obvious first step!!

Oil cooler on intake to fan - seemed completely wrong to me too.

I imported the car from South Africa to UK based upon a few basic photos.  Being in South Africa where its pretty hot the cooling must have worked?  Anyway I'll relocate as thats easy, put a better type of cooler on and perhaps put a fan on the cooler.

missing Tin ware - I presume this is missing on the bottom.  I'm used to the regular beetle engine and don't really know what I'm missing yet.  I'd read up on the Rabby DTM tinware but hadn't heard of Clark or Concept one : so I need to do some research on these and if I need to reinstate the flap thermostat.

Madness - this is my only car (ok my wife does have one and i do have motorbikes) so planning to use all year round in the UK - so going to make functional rather than concourse - I can't get wetter in the rain than riding a motorbike ? or can I

Thanks again for your response.

Fabulous project, @petekeys! You've got the components of a stunning car. All you have to add is money, elbow grease and lots of research.

Think about the car you want to build and make a plan to get there setting your priorities in the order that makes you happy (or fits your budget).

Your questions make me think it's mostly engine right now. I'd suggest spending time looking through the Type 4 forum on shoptalk. They're engine focussed and have a lot of experience/opinions.

Here's the link:

https://shoptalkforums.com/vie...74b84d70c7b5c16a867e

Good luck and welcome to the madness!

P.S. when you post pictures (and we do love to see them!!!), select the large size so we can dig into detail.

Pete-AFAIK, the OEM thermostat only works if you have the stock heat exchangers and flapper box. It has to be inside there or it won’t heat up.

For my Spyder, I just eliminated all that and fabbed up a Triumph choke cable to operate the thermostat flaps.

You can tell if you have the flaps by looking below you fan and seeing if you have this spring and crossbar.

@petekeys Another great resource besides the Shop Talk Forums is The Samba.  They have a sub-heading in their online Forum just for VW 411/412 issues and surely have a bunch of type 4 weanies lurking about.  Get yourself a username and start typing (or searching, whichever comes first).....    Here is the 411/412 forum:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewforum.php?f=33

@petekeys

I thought that photo you posted of the car looked vaguely familiar.  This is mine, back in '05 after I returned from a soggy weekend at the Carlisle, PA get-together and decided it was high time to add the convertible top.  The background is Fogland Beach on the east side of Rhode Island, looking west across the water towards the back side of Newport.  Looks a lot like your car!

Since you plan on getting wet maybe you should put bed-liner spray on the floor instead of carpets because you will get wet in this thing. Although if you plan it right, you MIGHT be able to get some better sealing in the header bow so the water doesn't drip right in your face.

As far as an oil cooler there's really none better than Setrab with a fan pack and a thermo-switch. This is the one I'm using and it works very well: Setrab Oil Cooler and Fanpack.

DTM is one up right conversion but ends up being around $800.  Joe Cali wrote a pamphlet on taking T1 and T4 cooling pieces to do an conversion that looks authentic to  OEM Porsche/VW.  Pamphlet is $24 new.  Your engine must be from a Bus or 411/412 (although European 914 had carbs not like US FI - so no real help).  What is the engine serial #? - that would be help in OEM displacement.  1.7/1.8 OEM heads  have 4 studs holding the intake on.  2.0 had 3 studs holding the intake on.  Spark plugs were in different places too.  If you could find all the OEM time - it will fit in the OEM original flat cooling configuration.

@dlearl476 said "Pete-AFAIK, the OEM thermostat only works if you have the stock heat exchangers and flapper box"

The thermostat is totally unrelated to the heat exchangers.  It controls flaps in a Type 1 fan shroud.

@Michael McKelvey posted:

@dlearl476 said "Pete-AFAIK, the OEM thermostat only works if you have the stock heat exchangers and flapper box"

The thermostat is totally unrelated to the heat exchangers.  It controls flaps in a Type 1 fan shroud.

I understand that. I misspoke. I was referring to the sleds. Without those in place, I don’t think the thermostat would work properly. I think it would eventually open due to conducted heat, but not as quickly as it would in close proximity to the heat exchangers (or J pipe) enclosed in the sleds.

Since my Spyder motor doesn’t have any of that, I confused a Type I with the 356/912 Flapper box arrangement.

I also found this: looks like Bus and Vanagan’s thermostats (and Type IV’s?) work with a cable and pulley vs a rod lIke a Type I, so Pete’s may be more correct than I thought.

Here's what the Joe Cali DIY conversion looks like.  T1 shroud is used along with 2 pieces pieces of the T1 head/spark plug covering tin cut and combined with head/sparkplug tin from the T4.  Takes cutting welding and fabrication of the alternator stand.  Remaining t1 tin is used to finish making it airtight.

@Robert M posted:

Since you plan on getting wet maybe you should put bed-liner spray on the floor instead of carpets because you will get wet in this thing.

I planned on getting wet (lots of short showers where I live). I POR15'ed the floors and coated them with truck bed liner. I then poured water in to see where it pooled and drilled drain holes until it did pool anymore.

More truck bed liner to coat the edges of the drill holes. And then relatively cheap and thin carpet so it would dry quickly. Nothing that would hold onto moisture.

So far so good, and it's a rare trip where I feel a need to pitch the tent, er top.

@Robert M posted:

Since you plan on getting wet maybe you should put bed-liner spray on the floor instead of carpets because you will get wet in this thing. Although if you plan it right, you MIGHT be able to get some better sealing in the header bow so the water doesn't drip right in your face.

As far as an oil cooler there's really none better than Setrab with a fan pack and a thermo-switch. This is the one I'm using and it works very well: Setrab Oil Cooler and Fanpack.

Bed-liner - I'm not that old !!.. or wait yes I get it -  great idea

Good shout on the oil cooler and fanpack too

@Michael Pickett posted:

I planned on getting wet (lots of short showers where I live). I POR15'ed the floors and coated them with truck bed liner. I then poured water in to see where it pooled and drilled drain holes until it did pool anymore.

More truck bed liner to coat the edges of the drill holes. And then relatively cheap and thin carpet so it would dry quickly. Nothing that would hold onto moisture.

So far so good, and it's a rare trip where I feel a need to pitch the tent, er top.

I'll lookup POR15 and second suggestion for bed liner so looks like thats a must!

thanks

@WOLFGANG posted:

DTM is one up right conversion but ends up being around $800.  Joe Cali wrote a pamphlet on taking T1 and T4 cooling pieces to do an conversion that looks authentic to  OEM Porsche/VW.  Pamphlet is $24 new.  Your engine must be from a Bus or 411/412 (although European 914 had carbs not like US FI - so no real help).  What is the engine serial #? - that would be help in OEM displacement.  1.7/1.8 OEM heads  have 4 studs holding the intake on.  2.0 had 3 studs holding the intake on.  Spark plugs were in different places too.  If you could find all the OEM time - it will fit in the OEM original flat cooling configuration.

thanks for the hints on how to identify the engine/heads and tin ware!!

looks like you got your boot lid stay from the same place I did

@petekeys posted:

I'll lookup POR15 and second suggestion for bed liner so looks like thats a must!

thanks

POR15 is just a good anti-corrosion paint that is frequently used in the states to try to prevent future rust. The downside is that it can flake and let water in. Use whatever good anti-corrosion paint is common in GB.

Truck bed liner is a different thing all together. Super thick, gooey with rubber bits mixed in. It's the thing that will be hard to damage once it dries hard and will keep your floor pans dry. I found mine at hardware stores and some auto parts stores.

Cheers!

This looks like a great platform to start a very nice car; those Type IV engines are worth their weight in gold; they are bulletproof; especially the cases. The only thing I would suggest is to organize the project so that you do things only once and right. It might take some more investment at first but, as they say, you only cry once, as opposed to multiple times. Enjoy the ride!