New rings not seating

I have over 500 miles on my top end re- build on my new 1776 engine and the best PSI compression that any cylinder coiuld muster is 90. The carbs are Dell 40s (or maybe 44s) that came off my 2180. I opted for the smaller engine for more trouble free motoring and the whole thing has backfired on me. I have had nothing but trouble. Some mechs here (like the builder of course) say the carbs are too big and washed out the rings and now it has to be done for the third time!
Others say Dells suck and still others swear by Dells and think the issue is re-jetting.
I would appreciate any thoghts.
ANd by the way, $1000 in a new exhaust does not add perform ance if the engine does not run right and has no compression.
Builder says new kits all come with top ring chrome and can go south very quickly if wash out.

There is a 1600 stock single in the paper and I will pick it up and stick it in just so I have a car that runs!!

Thanks in advance for yoiur thoughts.

what oil are you running?

My thoughts? Bummer!

Seriously, I'd think about doing this yourself. The hard part about the whole DIY thing is the case-splitting aspect, which you don't have to do with your problem. At the very least, I'd make the mechanic show you the wear on the rings if he does it. Are you sure it's rings, and not the valve seats?

I would recommend carbs that are easier to work on for your 1776. ICTs work really nicely, right out of the box- and would likely give you more relable performance than the better Del's of unknown size and vintage.

BTW, what $1K exhaust are you running? What primary tube diameter? How big is the muffler?

Another possibility is the the valves are not fully seating...hence poor compression

Lambros has a 1600 for sale, but I'm guessing you may have a valve seat problem. No warranty??? I mean really to say that the carbs are to big is what caused it seems a little self-serving. If I had an engine rebuilt and they didn't say anything about the carbs until afterward I wouldn't be happy or to trusting.

I have over 500 miles on my top end re- build on my new 1776 engine and the best PSI compression that any cylinder coiuld muster is 90. The carbs are Dell 40s (or maybe 44s) that came off my 2180. I opted for the smaller engine for more trouble free motoring and the whole thing has backfired on me. I have had nothing but trouble. Some mechs here (like the builder of course) say the carbs are too big and washed out the rings and now it has to be done for the third time!
Others say Dells suck and still others swear by Dells and think the issue is re-jetting.

Ralph: Dells don't suck - if they're properly set-up for the application, they are as good or better than any Weber or Holley or Kadron, etc.

Admittedly, Dell 40's or 44's are a LOT of carb for a 1776, but in order for them to work right they should have been re-jetted down considerably or they would have been running super-rich, causing a lot of smoke on start-up, idling poorly and probably popping through the exhaust a lot. If you never downsized your jets and have any or all of these symptoms, then, yes, you are over carb'd and MAY now have a top ring situation. Usually, though, I've seen this cause one of two things - it can either cause premature wearing of the top rings (the compression rings) because the extra gas dilutes the oil film and causes wear between the rings and cylinder wall. Having enough wear in 500 miles to cause low compression is a LOT of wear, though, so that would not be my first thought.

Or an over-rich condition may cause the oil film to carmelize into the cylinder scoring (if they were honed before assy as they were supposed to be) and creating a film that the rings ride over which prevents them from "seating" or wearing in properly. This I've cured with a good dose of Marvel Mystery Oil in the plug holes (use an aerosol can to "fog" the cylinder - that works well in a horizontal cylinder) to dissolve the film and let the rings seat. This would probably be my second choice. It would be a little surprising if ALL cylinders were exhibiting the same symptoms - I would expect a 30% - 40% divergence in compression levels between them.

My first thought would be the same as others on here, that the valves aren't seating properly. We don't know where the heads came from or who built them or if they came to you fully assembled by a reputable builder. If they did come from somewhere like CB I would tend to trust them. If they were assembled by your local mechanic (since I don't know him/her) I would be suspicious of whether the valves were lapped into the seats properly.

Aren't you in the Boston area? Call Dick Shine at Shine Racing in Walpole, to see if he can help. A good Harley machine/build shop could probably help, too.

Gordon

ralph,
go back to your engine builder and ask him to do a leak down test*. That will tell you if it's the valves leaking, or the rings getting blown-by.
And as far as the compression ...
The compression check has to be done (especially with dual carbs) with the throttle plates wide open.

Greg B

*leak down test is where you pressurize the cylinder at tdc with a know constant pressure (usually 100 psi)and measure how much the cylinder actually maintains. ( if it only maintains 90psi, then you have a 10% leak)
At top dead center with the cylinder pressurized you can hear through the carb or exhaust if that's where the leak is. (then you know it's valves).
If you hear it going back into the case, It's rings.
The normal leak down is usually under 10% in a happy motor.
For more info on leak down tester, an example can be seen at
www.racerpartswholesale.com/long29.htm

Bingo Greg! Your advise will zero in on the problem !

I certainly appreciate the thouights and will take them in print out form to the builder. As to the exhaust it is 1.5 inch all ceramic THing style header from Kymco which sweeps towards the front via an SS Header spplit pipe and then goes towards the rear again into to MagnaFlow 4 Inch round chrome mufflers.,
To see the exact version go to Eddie's pictures. I copied his except that I have cut out a little in the back of the car to let the chrome pipes peek out. Will post Pictures soon.

I am running 10/30HD oil

All points well taken. The builder is very reputable and is the supplier of these services for teh local dealer in Eugene Oregon. The only thing is he really is more of a machine shop and while he does the engine work the installation is done by less skilled people and I think they have dropped the ball. The best guy around here tells me you have to stick an 02 sensor to dial the carbs in close and then tweak them even more.

What are ICT' carbs?

The car did not and does not smoke on start up although there is some popping when the throttle is backed off .

Marvel Mystery Oil sounds like the trick my pops and I used to do with cars that LOLs drive 100 miles a year and lost compression and started using oil, except we poured kersene through the carb and let it choke out and sit overnight.
HOw do you get the oil into an aerosol can. That hole is awful tiny : - )
Seriously, do you take it to a paint shop and have them fill it?

All cyliners are between 75 and 90 PSI HOWEVER I did the check wihtout opening the carb throttles. I guess that could make a difference. I iwll try that while my wife is in church

The heads are new with Elgin cams which the builder to put together.

Yes a leak down seems to be indicated. I guess I should have thougt of that but I am so miffed about the whole thing that I am no longer thinking clearly. If this were a 911 motor it would be the first thing I would do.

Thi s info gives me some ammo.

Ralph:

To try to help organize your thoughts, see if you can find someone to do the leakdown test first. That will quickly point to either the rings or the valves. I would hate to see you start fixing one thing, only to find that it's something totally different. Getting the results of the leakdown test could be posted here and we can help.

It's a pretty straight-forward test, and all that needs to be removed from the car are the sparkplugs (and the air cleaners) to do it.

Marvel Mystery Oil comes in aerosol cans at most auto parts stores.

The Kerosene trick works pretty well, especially if the valves are stuck (stems are gummed to the valve guides) but we used to do that on farm trucks that sat over the winter, too. Sounds like your Dad is cool, too.

Gordon

Ralph, a compression check without full throttle opening will most likely give low and varying readings; prop the throttle wide open and try again with at least 10 engine rotations per cylinder.

Checking it hot is best, but a cold check shouldn't vary that much from the hot reading if all is well.

Could also be the compression was not set correctly at all.
Again a leakdown test will let you know the most information.
It sounds fishy that all the cylinders are low in pressure. As for
builders, it's always hard to trust them as the guy selling you the
motor is not the guy assembling them. As for the 2180, what happened to that motor? Same builder?

J-P

HI guys:
Thanks for the continued input.
A) The 2180 was one of those JCX junkers that came with the car. I knew it was soft when I bought the car this summer.
The current builder does the motors for the local VW dealer so he is no slouch but he prefers to hang in the shop and not touch the actual car. I was surprized to hear he had not bench tested it.

Today I did another compression test with throttle wide open and now the readings are all equal albeit only at 90 HOWEVER I did it with motor cold.
The plugs were all very dark however the one that had been wet is the same as all the others since i re-set the gap and timing.

The plugs are out now and I am going to bring them by the builder who as I might have said wants to make it right . WHen I put the new ones in I will run teh car hot and blisters be damned do another compression test.

But I fear I might have brought some of this on my self. As I was in the engine bay i noticed that the tin showed the cylinder numbers laid out very differntly
from the 911s that I have been driving for 25 years.
I had timed the motor to #4 instead of #1
and while it is 180 degreeeees out and shoudl not make any difference I think it could have some bearing on the problem.

So new plugs tomorrow and set the timing at 7.5 dgrees BTDC at 700rpm.
Then a compression test when it is warmed up.
Then drive it for a while and see how things shape up.
The builder wants the car back to re-jet the carbs and I will pass on the Marevell Mystery OIL trick and suggest a leak down test
I am feeling much better now that I have all this great info from you guys.

ralph, what led you to suspect you had trouble in the first place?

bruce,
one of the plugs kept fouling. So when i pulled them all they were all pretty dark
I am back from the store and got the Mystery Oil and new plugs.
We will keep our fingers crossed. The tech (not the engine builder) says that chrome rings do not seat until over 1000 miles and i only have 600.
What think? WOuld it not make sense for the plugs to be wet in order for the rings to be "washed out"?
Thanks for your continued sujpport.

Ralph,

I've heard the big carb/ raw gas in cylinder theory before, but usually as it applied to engines with thousands of miles. I have a hard time believing the compression problem you may be having is related to your carbs.

However, the poor running condition you described could easily be a carb problem. Everything- carbs, cam, heads, and ignition work together to make an integrated system. A little of this, and a little of that can make the engine run horribly. Ex: Weber IDFs are fine carburetors, but I had a 1776 with dual 40IDFs, and a Engle 110 cams and stock heads in my first car. It was extremely difficult to dial in and keep dialed in- the car usually ran very rich, and keeping them set-up (no vacuum leaks, clear idle jets, etc.) was a pain. In contrast, my car now has a 1776, same cam and heads, but with Weber ICTs (34s), and it runs crisply and with almost no problems. Are ICTs the answer for every problem? Absolutely

Ralph wrote:

"I had timed the motor to #4 instead of #1 and while it is 180 degreeeees out and should not make any difference I think it could have some bearing on the problem."

***********************

It's timing is 180 degrees off and you don't think that makes a difference????????????

You might want to re-think that one.......every time I inadvertantly timed an engine off by 180 degrees, it ran like shit, ESPECIALLY VW's.....

I agree with Stan on the compression. While it seems a bit low compared to other engines I've seen of late (110 - 120 lbs would be nice) it's not all that bad, either. We don't know what the deck height was when assembled or what to expect for the correct compression. It's also pretty suspicious that they're all the same - like they were supposed to be that way. Lots of engine builders now set their engines up with lower compression to prevent knocking on the lousy gas we get these days. Also, with only a few miles on it, you're probably still getting leakage past the rings, as the hone scoring is probably not yet fully gone from the cylinder walls.

If the builder wants to stand behind it and make it right, then let him. Ask him to do the leak-down test, and then set up your timing the correct way - time it to #1 cylinder and, if it's a centrifugal advance distributor, set it at 30 degrees total advance at 3000 RPM. If it's a vacuum advance, then start at 6 degrees at idle with the vacuum line off and plugged and play with it for more advance after you get it running right...

gn

i'm with gordon, all even psi (very odd), thats why i asked what led you to do a psi ck
in the 1st place. one fouled plug would point to a problem with one cyl. not all 4.
me thinks you have carb trouble. 600 miles is still brand new to me.
tune it, sync it, drive it.

ps---a fuel/air meter (gauge/led) is the most exacting tuning method.
cheap, and it's fun to watch the leds flicker. good luck.

Hey guys, things are looking up. After I doused the cylinders wiht Marvel and put in NEW PLUGS it sounded awesome. Boy did that smoke up the garage and half the street, but since everybody else has a job there was no one around to call the air purity Nazii it was as they say "all good" I will wait for tommorrow to set teh timing so that Mystery oil could get a chance to really work in.
I can hardly wait till the morning to set the timing, warm it up and take another compression test.
I also read somewhere that Hi Perf chrome rings can take up to 1000 miles to seat so I will drive it for a couple of day\s then look at the plugs and of course monitor perfomance.
It goes in next week for the leakdown and carb re-jetting and I really think tha t is going to do it.
Thanks for all the guidance and direction.
I must say tho that I thought that just soaking dirty plugs in paint thinner and going after them with a soft wire brush would do it but apparently not. The plugs must have had something to do with that enthusuastic performance.

Bruce:
Where were you able to get your hands on a reasonablly price air/fuel guage? I have seen nothing under $200

Stan and Gordon:
What does C/R stand for. Are we talking about cam lift?
ANd thanks for letting me know about your experience wiht 180 degrees out. With big sixes I have run it did not make a lot of difference except that the timing marks did not line up when the car was running at its best---this of course wiht vacuum advance. Centrifical like mine could really tho a wrench in things.
Disconnect the vac ADV on big engines and timning by ear would give me close to the same results as with a light.
Can't wait for the morning!

C/R= compression ratio

Ralph,

Chrome Compression Rings take longer to "Seat" then Cast Iron Rings.

Cast Iron Rings "Seat" faster. The Chrome Plated Ring has the Chrome Coating and takes longer to "Seat" aginst the Cylinder. The Cast Iron Ring "grinds" the Cylinder Wall faster and therefore "Seats" faster.

The Ring and Cylinder are different material surfaces and have to "Fit/Seat" aginst one another. Thats why some engine builders choose to "Glaze Bust or Hone" the Cylinders on conventional Engines instead of Boring the cylinder to the next size piston. This procedure is performed is the Cylinder Wall Taper/Piston Clearance are within manufactures ware tolerance allowing for simply "Re-ringing" the engine.

Basic High School Auto-Shop teaches when taking a compression Test to perform a "Dry" then a "Wet" Compression Test.

Dry - Remove Spark Plugs install compression tester and rotate the enging a "reasonable amout of revolutations" and monitor the Compression.

Wet - Engine Oil is "Squirted" into the Spark Plug Hole and the procedure is repeated such as the dry test. The Oil will increase the
compression because it will seal the Pistion/Cylinder Wall. Compare the Wet/Dry Compression Readings.

If you Valves are not closing properly or if you "Heads" need to be retorqued these are areas which could effect the compression reading.

The same compression reading you noted seems suspect.

Good Luck,

Jack

ralph, jc whitney has a few $45-$80 i think. these are to be a permanent installation not a meter. all they are is a quick reading
voltmeter that using the signal from a common o2 sensor. no science.
look at "dawes devices" on the web, they make/sell kits and explain
their use.

the saga continues:
I believe those of you who believe that perhaps I have been hasty in my concerns may well have a point. Today I fired it up and checked the timing ON NUMBER ONE It was on ly maybe two or three degrees retarded.
I adjusted the timinmg to 7.5 at idle and 28 at 3k and took it for a spin and must say it ran as well as it ever has, which can only be attributed to the new plugs cause after getting the engine nice and warm I took another c/r and it was still at 85-90. Pulled the plugs and they were on their way to getting fouled again with less than two miles on them---at pretty hi RPM.
I will have the carbs re-jetted and will let them do a leak down if they like, but I must say I am not unhappy with the cars perf. The only problem is if I depress the accelerator from a dead start too enthusiastically it will tend to bog down which makes me think it is gagging from too much gas---or not enough. What think yous guys?

ralph, too lean might make it "pop" back thru the intake/carbs.
you can also kindof trick it (if its lean)by cycling the throttle
and pumping more fuel in using the accel. pump.

I think a set of ICTs would cost about $400, and solve your problems.

Ralph:

I thought you said earlier that you had a centrifugal advance distributor. If so, you can't set the advance at idle. You have to accelerate the engine to 3000 rpm, and THEN set the advance to 30 (thirty) degrees before TDC.

That may explain your bogging off the line - the idle/low-speed advance is not sufficient to give you an adequate burn at idle.

Try that and report back.

gn

a/fuel meter $49. plus o2 sensor
www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/ProductDisplay/s-10101/p-70/c-10101

Hey! Interesting thing about air/fuel mixture meters and timing:

My air/fuel meter had been going progressively richer for some time, although the engine seemed to be running OK. Then, after I had been down here in SC for a few weeks, it started bogging off the line and George Brown reminded me that it must be running lean, so I started looking into leaky manifold gaskets (I didn't find any).

Then, one day I notice that it's now idling around 250 rpm, when it used to be up around 850. I found that my distributor clamp had never been tightened adequately and had allowed the disti to turn and retard the timing. Where it used to be 30 degrees BTDC at 3000 rpm, it was now down around 15 degrees (or less!!) making the car sluggish, bogging at idle and generally dead (It wouldn't pull over 5K rpm in third, either).

I re-set the timing and, lo and behold!, idle is back up where it belongs, no bogging off the line (smooth as silk, as a matter of fact) and, again, pulls easily up past 6K in third.

THEN I noticed that I'm running about 14.3 most of the time now on the air/fuel mix, when before, with retarded timing, I was hovering down around 11.5 to 12.3 on the rich side.

Amazing thing, getting the timing right!!

Gordon

Gordon:
Thanks for the tip. I assumed that even a centrifical advance unit advanced the timing a little at idle. ANy way it was 28 degrees at 3k. I iwll re-adjust to 30 but it might be a while cause the header is crooked and had to be returned. I shoiuld have shot a picture. The exhaust header hung two inches below the car on the left side and was hidden under the car on the right.
Gordon, I am totally envious of a car that pulls strong thru 6k. I am happy if mine does not shut off at 4200---and my builder says that is fine.
But we will get it all sorted out eventually but the weather has been in the 60s here and sunny and it is very annoying to look at the car covered in my garage.
So what are you running?

We've had beautiful weather lately, but mine's been sitting in the garage, too.......all the wheels are off so I can strip, sand and polish them (5-spoke Fuchs) to make'em look like Dale Bates' wheels!!

I have a 2,110 with a pair of 40mm Dellortos on matched intake manifolds, a 009 centrifugal distributor, Engle 120 cam, CB Performance crank and rods, Mahle pistons and CB Performance 044 heads (single, HD valve springs), all running out through a Berg 932 header system.

Runs fine, lasts a long time.

Gordon
One of th "Speedstah Guys" from Beaufort

On a type 1 VW engine cyls 1 and 4 are both at TDC at the same time, one of them on compression and the other on exhaust, so if you timed the engine on the #4 compression stroke the ignition timing should be fine for all cyls.

If the ignition is OK and spark plugs are the correct heat range, sooty plugs usually indicate 1) too rich idle jets, 2) float levels too high, 3) fuel pressure excessive, 4) leaking fuel inlet valves/seats, 5) leaking float, or 6) some combination of the above.

MOre on the condrundum.
One of the pieces for my exhaust hung low on the left (no wise cracks) and I had to send it back to S&S. They can't belive there is a problem, but said they would put it on the jig and check. Since the collector is absolutely in line with the body, why else would the next piece of the system hang 3 inches lower on one side than the other?
The weather has been too nice to have it just sitting waiting and waiting for parts so I did a little fabrication and managed to hang the old Bugpack muffler on it, set the timing and off we went. What a difference. It appears taht the old adage that you have to have back pressure appears to be true. I can't imagine how it will run when the rings seat. ITM, what do I do with two chrome Flowmasters and extra ceramic Jpipes and ceramic Thing "neck"?
New the stuff was: Flowmasters still shrink wrapped,($230)
the neck run less than 51 miles $150
Ceramic J pipes $50
All yours for $375. Too much exhaust I think for a puny little 1776.

Probably writing this to myself, but my education continues. It is not recommended to put exhaust parts from differnt vendors. Al lthe sections are machined to work together. My SS Thing neck has teh flange welded at a slight angle and when it is bolted to the Kymco Header the neck hangs down. So I found a fabricator who will make me an adapter to that the KYMCO and SS parts align. Then I returned my Flowmasters and misc. tubing and opted for the SS mufflers with built in turns. What I recommend is that you get all the parts from one vendor. The custom bracket and welding is going to cost me $200. A complete SS Thing system that I could have bolted on might have only saved me $100 but the aggravation factor has been indescribable and it ain't over yet.