New to me Vintage Speedster

Empi does make some stuff that people say are decent products, but I guess that isn't one of them, Mitch. Too bad you can't send it back. If we (and the rest of the cheap assed VW world) stopped buying any and all of their products, they would be forced to raise the quality of the whole line or cease to exist, but too many of the aforementioned VW crowd aren't smart enough to realize they've bought crap until it's too late. They're conned by the lower prices, even when they've seen (again and again and again and...) the junk that the formerly well respected company throws at this hobby. Too many stupid VW people don't get that if everybody else's retail price on an item in these competitive times is so much, but Empi sells (supposedly) the same thing for 25-50% less, something has to be missing, and they'll go back and buy crap from the same company again and again (and again...).

Joe Vittone (a VW dealer in Riverside, CA I think) started selling VW stuff under the Empi name in the middle/late '50's when he developed the first replaceable valve guides for the 36hp VW head, as VW's protocol was to replace the heads when the guides wore out of spec. All the products they developed through the '60's were designed to the same quality standard (or higher)  of the factory part it replaced. VW didn't like them selling the Empi stuff along side of new Volkswagens, and Joe was forced to close it down (about 1970?).

The Empi we have to contend with was reborn 6 or 7 years later (late '70s') and has been the scourge of this industry ever since. They are killing this hobby, as fewer and fewer people find it's not worth it to develop and market properly engineered, machined and heat treated products of the right materials for our use, and we find fewer properly made parts (even stock replacement, as VW hasn't made any stuff for the aircooled cars for years) on the shelf.

Yoda out (for now).

Al, there were two main problems with this thing.

First, it didn't 'compensate' much. At rest, the bar barely touched the axle, and you could pull it down, away from the axle several inches with just two fingers. So, through the normal range of suspension travel it hardly did anything to control the axle. It could be that in an extreme situation it may have prevented a wheel from tucking under, but I think a well-designed compensator should do more than that. When I finally removed it, I noticed no difference in how the car handled.

But worse, it was literally falling apart. The 'urethane' blocks that contact the axle are bolted to the bar. But those 'bolts' are very lightly tacked onto a steel anchor inside the block. Trying to tighten the nut that holds it all together snapped the bolt off inside the urethane block.

VS sent me a replacement, and this time, aware of the problem, I applied just enough light torque to tighten the nut. The second one snapped off just like the first. I gave up and fashioned a wooden block that sort of did the same thing as the urethane block.

This looks like another product that may have originally been designed and spec'd to work well. But apparent inconsistencies in materials and quality control resulted in something that looked and worked more like a mock-up than the actual thing.

Sorry, I'm starting to shake and mumble incoherently. I'd better stop now.

"First, it didn't compensate much"

Another fine piece of Empi engineering! You have every right to be pissed, Mitch; even though you didn't buy it originally, you did pay for the piece of crap. You deserve equipment that functions as intended and is built to last. Bitch to the guys you bought the car from, and then buy the one from CB Perf. and send them the bill. I don't expect they will re-imburse you, but you'll be making a statement. Al

Keep in mind if your trans has a alum side cover the CC won't work

Anthony posted:

Keep in mind if your trans has a alum side cover the CC won't work

Question for you Anthony- Is an aluminum side cover really needed in a car that's not set up (suspension, rear slicks) to pick the front wheels up off the ground? Has anyone ever tried to measure the deflection of a stock magnesium side cover in a press with 150 or 200 lbs? 

East Coast Bruce-When i purchased my car used  4 years ago I thought that I was getting an IRS rear-a 1969 floor pan The Irs brackets are there but it is a swing axle. I called Kirk and he explained that the IRS axles are longer and won't clear the mexican body quarter panels. It can be changed back but one has to use an IRS tranny and shorter axles-i think bus axles are shorter. I haven't changed it but installed a camber compensator along with a thick front sway bar-it helps.     

joel

I don't have any specific test data but the load on the ring gear side is increase due to increase in torque/HP the aftermarket motors produce. In a drag application the shock load comes from the hole shot starts. In most speedster applications if the owner enjoys going fast around turns the load is increased. When the side cover flexes or gives a little the ring gear moves away from the pinion and increases wear on the pinion gear. When this occurs I seen pits or clipped teeth. 

Hope that  answers your questions

Anthony posted:

Keep in mind if your trans has a alum side cover the CC won't work

I have installed the bug pack swing axle sway bar on bugs and it seemed to work ok. The sway bar won't work if you have a berg mid mount. 

I thought the IRS sway may work with some slight modifications but have yet to mock it up. 

Most of your speedsters ride height is low and the decamber  or tuck in issue is not as common like a std beetle. The role center is low on a speedster in comparison to a beetle/bug

Anthony posted:

I don't have any specific test data but the load on the ring gear side is increase due to increase in torque/HP the aftermarket motors produce. In a drag application the shock load comes from the hole shot starts. In most speedster applications if the owner enjoys going fast around turns the load is increased. When the side cover flexes or gives a little the ring gear moves away from the pinion and increases wear on the pinion gear. When this occurs I seen pits or clipped teeth. 

Hope that  answers your questions

I understand that, Anthony, but no, it doesn't answer my specific question. A friend (Bruce Tweddle, who's knowledge of VW transaxles is encyclopedic and lives close by) wants to put a magnesium irs side cover in a press and see how much force it will take before it deflects or breaks; it's lighter than the stock aluminum cover that normally goes on the thrust (left, for those that are trying to follow along and have never rebuilt a trans) side of the case, and he's curious to see if/when the extra strength is needed. His theory is that if it will take 200 lbs then even a stock aluminum cover isn't needed until the car is capable of lifting the front wheels off the ground. If it will only take somewhat less, that's knowledge gained as well.

I suspect it will break early in the test, VW (as usual) has already done the necessary r&d and the stock aluminum cover is there for a reason. After all, the later covers even have a 2nd strengthening ring cast into them. I'm sure they had a reason for that as well... Al 

"Most of your speedsters ride height is low and the decamber or tuck in issue is not as common like a std beetle. The role center is low on a speedster in comparison to a beetle/bug"

This statement would lead some to believe that tuck in is not ever an issue and I would disagree. Is it as common or as bad, no, can it happen, yes.  Teby and I went out for a drive in the foothills where we live and on one particular corner things got pretty hairy. That's when I decided to add the camber compensator to my car and things have been awesome ever since.

Very nice car.  Did anyone notice that the guy has what looks like a lift in his garage?? Thats very nice too!

Anthony,

I believe that the slight lowering of the roll center in a Speedster replica is more than offset by the much larger (2-3 times or more) engines that our replicas use in comparison to a standard beetle.  Speed entering a corner is an essential element of wheel tuck, and most of our cars are now capable of producing producing speeds that may overtake our driving skills, me included.  On my bucket list is a 3-day driving course at Laguna Seca, something all of us old, broken-down hot rodders should consider.  

ALB posted:

Anthony posted:

I don't have any specific test data but the load on the ring gear side is increase due to increase in torque/HP the aftermarket motors produce. In a drag application the shock load comes from the hole shot starts. In most speedster applications if the owner enjoys going fast around turns the load is increased. When the side cover flexes or gives a little the ring gear moves away from the pinion and increases wear on the pinion gear. When this occurs I seen pits or clipped teeth. 

Hope that  answers your questions

I understand that, Anthony, but no, it doesn't answer my specific question. A friend (Bruce Tweddle, who's knowledge of VW transaxles is encyclopedic and lives close by) wants to put a magnesium irs side cover in a press and see how much force it will take before it deflects or breaks; it's lighter than the stock aluminum cover that normally goes on the thrust (left, for those that are trying to follow along and have never rebuilt a trans) side of the case, and he's curious to see if/when the extra strength is needed. His theory is that if it will take 200 lbs then even a stock aluminum cover isn't needed until the car is capable of lifting the front wheels off the ground. If it will only take somewhat less, that's knowledge gained as well.

I suspect it will break early in the test, VW (as usual) has already done the necessary r&d and the stock aluminum cover is there for a reason. After all, the later covers even have a 2nd strengthening ring cast into them. I'm sure they had a reason for that as well... Al 

UPDATE :

I done some research on this today. Some trans builders and sales people may not agree,   but one does not need a alum side cover unless they are looking to drag race or hole shots from stoplight to stoplight.  The berg axle tube stiffeners used on both sides would satisfy most applications in a speedster with a swing axle.  

I don't mean to sound that I sway from pro and con, but most customers ask for them and it is safe insurance when they enjoy their car more and sit at that stop light and are teased by the guy revving his engine in the other lane, then rev their motor and dump the clutch leaving the other guy in the dust.

hope that clears up the mystery.

 

UPDATE :

I done some research on this today. Some trans builders and sales people may not agree,   but one does not need a alum side cover unless they are looking to drag race or hole shots from stoplight to stoplight.  The berg axle tube stiffeners used on both sides would satisfy most applications in a speedster with a swing axle.  

I don't mean to sound that I sway from pro and con, but most customers ask for them and it is safe insurance when they enjoy their car more and sit at that stop light and are teased by the guy revving his engine in the other lane, then rev their motor and dump the clutch leaving the other guy in the dust.

hope that clears up the mystery.

Giday, Anthony. You seem to have a fair grip on what needs to go in a transmission for various styles of driving with varying HP or torque.

If you have a chance, could you please offer up some guidance for what may be suitable for my application ?

The background is that I have converted my Speedster to a Subaru EJ22 engine which is probably not putting out more than 125 hp the way it is set up and with the mileage (unknown really) on it. I've been running a bone stock type 1 transmission for the last 30,000 miles with no problem. I'm now upgrading to a JDM based Frankenmotor which with my setup might put out 165 or so HP with the same in torque according to what I read. Since my existing tranny has unknown mileage on it and it's leaking, I'm pulling it out for a replacement or rebuild. Common sense suggests I should beef it up now.

My driving habits are mild. I don't burn rubber and I know how to drive. No speed shifting and only mild downshifting. On a step by step basis, are you able to suggest the first thing to beef up, then the second, third etc. I'd never hold you to anything...I'm just looking for a common sense progressive list of steps to take. The transmission will get done in January. Thanks.

David Stroud posted:

 

UPDATE :

I done some research on this today. Some trans builders and sales people may not agree,   but one does not need a alum side cover unless they are looking to drag race or hole shots from stoplight to stoplight.  The berg axle tube stiffeners used on both sides would satisfy most applications in a speedster with a swing axle.  

I don't mean to sound that I sway from pro and con, but most customers ask for them and it is safe insurance when they enjoy their car more and sit at that stop light and are teased by the guy revving his engine in the other lane, then rev their motor and dump the clutch leaving the other guy in the dust.

hope that clears up the mystery.

Giday, Anthony. You seem to have a fair grip on what needs to go in a transmission for various styles of driving with varying HP or torque.

If you have a chance, could you please offer up some guidance for what may be suitable for my application ?

The background is that I have converted my Speedster to a Subaru EJ22 engine which is probably not putting out more than 125 hp the way it is set up and with the mileage (unknown really) on it. I've been running a bone stock type 1 transmission for the last 30,000 miles with no problem. I'm now upgrading to a JDM based Frankenmotor which with my setup might put out 165 or so HP with the same in torque according to what I read. Since my existing tranny has unknown mileage on it and it's leaking, I'm pulling it out for a replacement or rebuild. Common sense suggests I should beef it up now.

My driving habits are mild. I don't burn rubber and I know how to drive. No speed shifting and only mild downshifting. On a step by step basis, are you able to suggest the first thing to beef up, then the second, third etc. I'd never hold you to anything...I'm just looking for a common sense progressive list of steps to take. The transmission will get done in January. Thanks.

It would be helpful to know what your current trans has. You mentioned it's stock? Stock ratios ?  What ring and pinion? Knowing that will help in getting you something to match the motor and your driving style. On the site several owners comment they are using a 3.44 R/P with a suby. Call me if you want to further discuss it

1-916-255-7996

Thanks, Anthony. My transmission is stock....like bone stock, like what came in a 1967 VW Beetle. Yes, stock ratios....4.125 R&P was stock I think. I know what a 3.88 or 3.44 will do and I understand the math in that. My question was more of a common sense list of steps to beef up the tranny.

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on iRS vs swing axle and compensators.  Based on the feedback above it sounds like I may have ordered the wrong brand of compensator but I did a fair amount of reading prior to ordering and there appeared to be pluses and minuses for both.  Unfortunately, I no longer can find those articles so will just have to wait and see how this one works out.  Stay tuned for results.  

Common things to are welded hubs on third and fourth gear, chromoly pinion retainer or nut depending on early or late case,  hand Pac needle bearing, ground mainshaft or the splined super beetle mainshaft (3.78 first gear). The early trans comes with  a weaker 3.80 first gear. 

If your going to build a tranny to last and work with your motor combo is to look at r/p ratios and a higher first gear mainshaft like 3.44 or 3.25 first gear.

Jim Kelly posted:

Anthony,

I believe that the slight lowering of the roll center in a Speedster replica is more than offset by the much larger (2-3 times or more) engines that our replicas use in comparison to a standard beetle.  Speed entering a corner is an essential element of wheel tuck, and most of our cars are now capable of producing producing speeds that may overtake our driving skills, me included.  On my bucket list is a 3-day driving course at Laguna Seca, something all of us old, broken-down hot rodders should consider.  

You're right, Jim, even with a lowered swingaxle car, all it takes is coming into a corner too fast, hitting the brakes (even briefly) in the middle of it, and it's now nose down and back end up. If you're lucky it slides around the corner, you wait for your heart to settle down, and continue on down the road. 

ALB posted:

Jim Kelly posted:

Anthony,

I believe that the slight lowering of the roll center in a Speedster replica is more than offset by the much larger (2-3 times or more) engines that our replicas use in comparison to a standard beetle.  Speed entering a corner is an essential element of wheel tuck, and most of our cars are now capable of producing producing speeds that may overtake our driving skills, me included.  On my bucket list is a 3-day driving course at Laguna Seca, something all of us old, broken-down hot rodders should consider.  

You're right, Jim, even with a lowered swingaxle car, all it takes is coming into a corner too fast, hitting the brakes (even briefly) in the middle of it, and it's now nose down and back end up. If you're lucky it slides around the corner, you wait for your heart to settle down, and continue on down the road. 

Your right I have been there to. The tire didn't tuck inward but I was sliding due to lost of traction. 

Based on 40 years of experience with various VW powered vehicles, one really needs the heavy duty side covers when using a larger size engine with more torque and horsepower.  The stock side covers were designed for up to 60 HP.  Past 100 HP, you are pushing your luck on whether or not the side cover will stand up to the added torque. And, I am not talking here about drag race type starts, just normal driving with over two liter size engines and over 100 HP.  The professional transmission builders don't put on the HD aluminum side covers for looks. Also, the cost is small for a quality heavy duty side cover.  So, why not slow down on curves or buy an $80,000 Real Porsche ?  I did autocross on a closed course for one year with a speedster with swing axle, all stock.  It performed better than I thought it would.  I am not a very good driver, but the old swing axle set up did just fine on the curves. Never tested it past 60 mph.

---George K. ---

David Stroud posted:

 

UPDATE :

 

Giday, Anthony. You seem to have a fair grip on what needs to go in a transmission for various styles of driving with varying HP or torque.

If you have a chance, could you please offer up some guidance for what may be suitable for my application ?

The background is that I have converted my Speedster to a Subaru EJ22 engine which is probably not putting out more than 125 hp the way it is set up and with the mileage (unknown really) on it. I've been running a bone stock type 1 transmission for the last 30,000 miles with no problem. I'm now upgrading to a JDM based Frankenmotor which with my setup might put out 165 or so HP with the same in torque according to what I read. Since my existing tranny has unknown mileage on it and it's leaking, I'm pulling it out for a replacement or rebuild. Common sense suggests I should beef it up now.

My driving habits are mild. I don't burn rubber and I know how to drive. No speed shifting and only mild downshifting. On a step by step basis, are you able to suggest the first thing to beef up, then the second, third etc. I'd never hold you to anything...I'm just looking for a common sense progressive list of steps to take. The transmission will get done in January. Thanks.

Giday, George. Based on your background with VW's and your racing experience, would you be able to add some comments or suggestions to my question asked in the above post about how I should beef up my transmission for the intended purpose? Thanks.

Do Speedsters built by Vintage have a sequential build # specified somewhere on the car (not the VIN)?  I thought I saw a number somewhere on mine or in the paperwork but can't find it now.    

On a recent trip to California my wife and I stopped by Vintage Speedsters in Hawaiian Gardens.  I had never been there before and needed some extra material for my side curtains.  I only met Kirk once sometime back in the '90's on his only trip to Carlisle so it was good to spend some time and tour his shop.   He had quite a few cars in progress and showed me a new underdash e-brake he is now offering as an option.  Here are a few photos from our visit.