New Vintage Questions

Man, you're old school washing your car with water!

I have a CMC and haven't seen a new VM.  The CMC's frunk lid handle was mounted on the fiberglass hood with no gasket.  There are OEM gaskets that are easily fitted (If you have a hood liner glued on carpet - not as easy!).  If you already have those 2 gaskets installed - you could put some silicon sealer on the studs that go thru the fiberglass (easy to poke hole in carpet to do - if carpeted).  (Here's how the CMC handle is attached - 3 studs.

On my CMC the back area has a fiberglass heat shield that gets fiberglassed in to seal that area by the tail lights.  Maybe you could spray in that expanding foam used around house doors and windows?

Never have washed mine with water, I spray cleaner on and wipe off with microfiber rags, cleaning everything.  I think since I've had the car (4 years), it's only been sprinkled on by rain once.

Neither the CMC heat shields nor the shields installed by Vintage will fix your problem, nor is there an aftermarket fix kit.

I am familiar with the area by the tail lights allowing sand and pebbles (and rain, if you’re out in it) to get in to the engine compartment.  

I made up a new “Top Insert” ( the part shown in the diagram above on the right) made of HVAC sheet metal that included a small “kip-up” on each end that follows the contours of the body and effectively closes those gaps on the ends to prevent stuff from getting in, but as Wolfgang mentioned, it might be easier to make up a small pair of light cardboard forms and fill those gaps with spray foam insulation.

Another alternative might be to seal it from below, on the underside of the body near the tail lights.  Same trick applies - Make up a sheet of some stout material (metal or plastic sheet) to close the gap or make up a cardboard form to contain some expanding foam shot up in the voids.  

Hi Bob..... Congrats on owning one of the most fun cars ever !    Now,  that open area at the back in your engine compartment acts like a giant scoop to pick up hot air exhaled from the engine fan.   First, make sure your car has those panels that Wolfgang showed you are in.  Next is to seal off the tail light  area all the way across there with another panel.  This will stop all the gravel from coming in PLUS keep your engine cool by only allowing cold air to come into the engine fan and carbs thru the rear grill..  This is very IMPORTANT !  Please read other posts about this on this site.

With Summer coming you'll be glad you did this.  Oh.....and make sure the panel is somewhat removable..............Bruce

@Gordon Nichols posted:

Neither the CMC heat shields nor the shields installed by Vintage will fix your problem, nor is there an aftermarket fix kit.

I am familiar with the area by the tail lights allowing sand and pebbles (and rain, if you’re out in it) to get in to the engine compartment.  

I made up a new “Top Insert” ( the part shown in the diagram above on the right) made of HVAC sheet metal that included a small “kip-up” on each end that follows the contours of the body and effectively closes those gaps on the ends to prevent stuff from getting in, but as Wolfgang mentioned, it might be easier to make up a small pair of light cardboard forms and fill those gaps with spray foam insulation.

Another alternative might be to seal it from below, on the underside of the body near the tail lights.  Same trick applies - Make up a sheet of some stout material (metal or plastic sheet) to close the gap or make up a cardboard form to contain some expanding foam shot up in the voids.  

Have you got a pict of that Gordon?

I can mock up my upper heat shield on the bench from the paper template I send out to others.   That will at least give you the idea of what the ends look like if you wish to copy them.  I’ll take photos tomorrow and post them.

Bear in mind, that my heat shields were designed for a CMC body car (also fits the early IM cars, I’ve been told) and all I did originally was to get in there behind the lights with some stiff paper to make temporary templates that fit the inside contours of the body to close things off.  The main (flat) body of the shield is curved to match the inside of the body as well and then I use some 1/2” thick by 3/4” wide storm door weatherstrip adhered to the inside of the body, push the shield up against that and screw the shield to the body frame.  

Anyway, stand by for photos….

Guys,

Thank you all for the great responses so far. In the back of my mind, I was thinking I would have to make something for both those back corners, in front of the rear of the tail lights and wiring. I'll be very interested in the pictures/drawings you can share. I was thinking of ordering some cheapo flat plastic mud flaps, and using the material to make a couple of inside form fitting panels and screwing, or riveting them in. I'm wondering if I need to have some type of venting for some air flow ?

Thanks again.

I have the piece I described in my car, but unfortunately, there is some noise mat stuck to it on both sides and you can't see the little wings sticking up.

I took some photos of my paper templates, though, which you might be able to zoom in on to see how the ends are shaped.  Remember, this piece is made from the light gauge sheet metal used for HVAC ducting and I got mine from a mechanical shop that does that work for real short money.

Here is the overall upper shield, positioned as it would sit in the back of the car on top of the body member.  The large curve goes up against soft weather strip stuck on the inside of the body to seal out hot air and dirt.  On each side, Left/Right, there is a dotted line where you bend the ends straight up, and that seals against the inside of the body out at the inner wheel well walls.  Once this was installed, 2 decades ago, it has never had to be removed.  Engine installation/removal doesn't affect this piece.

The next photo shows the driver's side winglet, showing where to bend it up.  Remember that all curves in this piece are at the very rear of the car, to the inside of the body.  The big dot to the right of the dotted line is a position for one of the fastening screws (a 10/32 screw with captive star washer, threaded into the body frame member).  There are 5 or 6 screws holding it in (your choice on number and locations, but I suggest locations).  The big circle on the right is a cut-out around the bumper bracket bolts.  The curves are precise and follow the contours of the body and since we all know that there are slight variations between bodies (even from the same builder) these curves may have to be trimmed/adjusted for proper fit.  Using the weather strip between the heat shield and body really seals things up.

The next photo shows the same winglet on the passenger side which gets bent upward the same way.  The odd little bites out of the winglet are to fit around the tail light housing where it protrudes inward inside of the body.

I have copies of these templates for both the upper shield shown, as well as a lower shield which surrounds the engine.  They are made of heavy Kraft paper (think of  grocery bag paper) and I send them out USPS. All I ask is to recover the postage (about $5 dollars).  If anyone is interested, please PM me.

Great Stuff. !!!

As you can see, Gordons is very similar to what I made. I made mine out of flat fiberglass I got from Vintage Motorcars but aluminum will work too or any flat/thin material that is fairly fire and melt proof. I just cut the pieces, laid them in place and put little dabs of JB's Weld (5minute) lightly on the joints, waited abhor and PRESTO !

I removed it as one piece and finished up the joints with more epoxy , drilled a couple holes and screwed it on.  If it fits nice and tight so no air gets past, you don't need to caulk it all around.      Here's a few photos.........Bruce

OH !  .........I forgot to mention that I used my CAD system to get it to fit perfect !

(Cardboard Aided Design).............Bruce

I used the same CAD as el Señor Bruce.  It’s fast, accurate and doesn’t even need a PC…. Maybe just some masking tape……
And the tape comes in spiffy colors!

You would think that Vintage would refine that area before it is delivered. My Beck speedster is sealed with fiberglass all the way around the back between the shelf/engine surround and the tub. No debris or hot air getting in.

Gordon....I know one person that used duct tape to seal off the panel once installed and then used a rattle can of undercoating to finish it off.  Looked pretty good !

Oh....and CAD is just so simple.......and direct too !   Ha Ha !!   More Hands On ?

Lead Pedal.....I agree.  I don't know why they don't either. Maybe it's cost or perhaps they think it's not needed or perhaps they think it IS needed to have extra cooling. Maybe it costs too much to do, production wise.   I know that in my car it reduced engine temps quite a bit.................Bruce

Bruce wrote: "I know that in my car it reduced engine temps quite a bit.........."

Making those heat shields and figuring out how to block off the air coming in was my first step towards a cooler-running engine and they made quite a bit of difference, getting me down from 215-220F on a turnpike to 210-215F.

The next (and final) step was converting my engine to full-flow oil cooling with a powered fan oil cooler, which brought me down to 200-205F even with Ambient temp in the mid+ 90's.

I'd think cruising the "side air vents" would add to cooling/air supply.  When stopped The exhaust heat would be sucked in too though.  Then there's the sand/stone/water issues.  Some have added air scoops under the car to feed fresh air to front (where flywheel is) of engine.  I could see that helping when cruising.  Add flaps so it could be closed in the winter.

I used to work with a bunch of mechanical designers, all using the "Pro Engineer" CAD software (Now "CREO") and they could turn out some amazing stuff pretty quickly with few "Got'chas".

Now, even suppliers like McMaster-Carr let you download the meta-data for almost any part that they sell so you can just pick something and point to where it goes and the orientation - done.  

But that misses that tactile sensation of holding the cardboard up to something, squinting at it, seeing where it's needing trim and dialing it in for the perfect fit.

Cardboard Aided Design Fo'Evah!

From the cheap seats, here are a few photos to show how I closed out the rear engine bay openings on the back end of my VMC.  I too was growing tired of vacuuming road debris from the rear apron of my engine bay every 5th to 6th drive.  So I came up with a temporary fix mostly using things I had on hand, thinking someday I'd devise a more elegant, photo worthy solution.  This area does not become visible unless your head is inserted into the engine bay and good lighting is used, so I've not felt compelled to upgrade my primitive work quite yet.  For a solution that looks really nice, maybe @NTrav will post a few photos showing what he did (it looks wonderful).

The openings likely causing the greatest ingress of debris are at the rear corners at the turn signal housings.  There is also a gap running left to right between the body and the piece of fiberglass board attached to the frame support that I figured was doing its best to contribute.  These are the gaps I wished to seal.

I cut a length of spare engine-to-body seal for a bus in half (making two C cross sections from the original H cross section) that allowed me to seal the left to right gap along the sear of the car.  For the rear corners, I used cardboard to finalize the shapes I needed, and aluminum sheet for the final pieces.  I covered them with black aluminum tape to help them blend in (bed liner might have been a better choice, but I didn't have any).  After final fitting I installed these two mini panels using two bolts each flat against the left and right side panels.  In the end I was still left with some gaps here and there that I plugged with additional pieces of foam.  I made sure each piece of foam felt reasonably secure and unlikely to fly about.

Clearly mine is the work of a novice with limited skills, but with maybe 1000 miles logged since the change I would say the presence of debris has reduced by a good 95%.  I don't have a proper oil temperature gage, but temps seem to run normal for me.  

Good luck.  This is a problem that deserves a good, simple, elegant solution.

Well done, @Jon T!

And as you mentioned, you want them to seal off the space.  They don’t have to look like Etorré Bugatti designed and built them.  Nobody’s gonna see them, anyway - They just have to work!

Thanks @Jon T.  Here are the pix.  And just to clarify, while this is on my car, it was the prior owner that installed it.  I believe the material is sound proofing material by a company called Dynamat.  It appears to be held in place by an epoxy/hardener compound.

Hope this helps...

Those corner areas by the tailights are problematic. Many years ago I managed to seal the straight run between them with foam weatherstrip and silicone which cuts a good amount of the expelled hot air from the engine (goes straight to the back) but those two sides remain open. The fact that the tailights are there make the optimal solution more complicated because ideally the panels would be removable. Oterwise you would have to destroy your perfectly sealed panels if and when you needed to have access to the back of the tailight assemblies for any reason.

Guys,

First of all, I want to thank everyone who has responded and assisted in resolving this issue.

As an update, I have fired up my CAD system and created both left and right side mock ups that I think will address this issue on my car. I am now in the process of finding large enough pieces of ABS to construct the final bits. Once complete, I will post pictures.

Also.... what is the procedure to removing the frunk handle on a VM ? I hadn't looked, but I recall there being an inner panel which could be problematic ?

Thanks again.

I believe the frunk handle is just held in place with small nuts; if there is a carpet liner on the hood it would have to be carefully removed and re-adhered to get access to the nuts.

No carpet on the hood..... inner panel if I recall correctly. Another VM owner would know if they have sealed theirs or changed the handle crest.

My car is a 2004 Vintage and I installed all the rubber it didn’t come with. I recall taking off the handle and replacing it to install the rubber seals for it; it’s been many years and I don’t have the car here handy to check. I also recall that the seals for the horn grilles were a pain to install because of the thickness of the fiberglass as compared to steel; there’s almost no thread left on the minute studs and installing the small nuts was a little complicated.

@oldcanuck posted:

Also.... what is the procedure to removing the frunk handle on a VM ? I hadn't looked, but I recall there being an inner panel which could be problematic ?.

Once you get access to the fasteners, you really need to avoid dropping them back into the void inside the frunk lid.

Use magnets or something, but it's really easy to lose them and really hard to recover the rattling little buggers.

Yeah, I'm not so sure I want to chase those little  'buggers' !

Horn grille seals are fine... but I noticed the other day one of the rubber headlight 'T' seals is starting to crack. Are those easy to find ?

@Michael Pickett posted:

Once you get access to the fasteners, you really need to avoid dropping them back into the void inside the frunk lid.

Use magnets or something, but it's really easy to lose them and really hard to recover the rattling little buggers.

Yeah, that is an issue.  Recently the rat population has become so bad in our city a video circulated where the refuse truck had a dozen of them hitch a ride to another sector of the city… aw well will the city allow pesticides, they don’t allow herbicide, I guess they are expecting us to adopt them…

It seems there are a lot of stuff you need to sort out or improve over the first two years…. but then there are those upgrades that you just seem to have to have…   That is why it is called the madness, because it goes on.  I hear Harvard has produced data support eating a ketogenic lifestyle to help with madness I wonder if it can help with CarMadness

@oldcanuck posted:

Yeah, I'm not so sure I want to chase those little  'buggers' !

Horn grille seals are fine... but I noticed the other day one of the rubber headlight 'T' seals is starting to crack. Are those easy to find ?

On my car I replaced certain seals that go around the sealed beam units and they were a bitch to put on; they were white. I believe originally Vintage used some sort of a sealant. The black ones between the chrome headlight surround and the body I haven't needed to swap after 20 years. I believe those are vinyl and not rubber.

The tailight seals I've needed to swap maybe 5 or 6 years ago; those cracked. The license plate light seal I swapped one or two years ago. The door handle seals I put on way back when were OEM Porsche and they are perfect after all these years. The ones that were in there originally had come cracked from the shop at Vintage ; definitely crummy quality.

The T rubber headlight gaskets are easy/inexpensive to come by.  In FL heat they don't last long.  I have CMC and in some places, the fiberglass is 1/2" thick.  I had to Dremel out to get nuts on many fasteners. 

I have used Kasse356 for years - many parts come from Stoddards.  They have a nice online catalog.

Klasse 356

@WOLFGANG posted:

The T rubber headlight gaskets are easy/inexpensive to come by.  In FL heat they don't last long.  I have CMC and in some places, the fiberglass is 1/2" thick.  I had to Dremel out to get nuts on many fasteners.

I have used Kasse356 for years - many parts come from Stoddards.  They have a nice online catalog.

Klasse 356

Yes; I used Klasse 356, Stoddards and Mid America Motorworks.

I'm sure I'm an outlier, but I bought OEM headlight gaskets, tried them out and decided not to use any. As long as there's a drain hole in the bottom of the bucket, the electrics will be fine and you don't really need to worry about rust, eh? But, if you like the way it looks, it can't hurt to use them either.

Can’t help with hood handle, as have never had mine off.

But here’s another data point for headlight seals. My VS didn’t use standard VW or 356 seals, but some hardware store U-shaped rubber mini weatherstripping that has held up amazingly well.

It’s not a continuous loop like the originals, but must come in a long roll and was cut into lengths that just fit around the chrome trim ring.

At first they seem as troublesome to fit as the originals, as they keep slipping off in one place or another as you try to get the chrome ring in place.

And then, finally, it comes to you in a classic ‘aha’ moment - MASKING TAPE!

You just tape the rubber strip to the chrome bezel with pieces of tape you can peel off once the ring is screwed down tight. Easy - peasy, cheap, endless quantities available wherever fine hardware is sold. A rare example of VS corner cutting that may be better than the original.

It does not, of course, seal perfectly against water intrusion, but that’s consistent with the entire VS design gestalt, and frankly, I don’t think the original seals did either. As Mike suggests, walk softly and drill a big drain hole.

Ladies and gentlemen,

I'm really not sure what to do. Seal or not to seal, that is the question. Is it not nobeler to let air flow from the firewall vent hole flow over the engine and down through that space or just have it come through the vent hole and out the lid. Flow when running, none when stopped. I have wrangled with the idea of covering that space down there but as of yet not come up with a good answer. I fully open my lid when parked at home, am investigating the GT style lid center hole grate vent and also have constructed two vent tubes that would run from under the car up and shoot directly at the carbs. How much venting do we need. I have an external oil cooler and fan and up here in NoCal, I can barely get the thing up to temp when running around in winter. It’s unsightly yes. Is it unfinished or there for a purpose. Help?

Tom

Just my opinion, but here are a few of my thoughts.

You've got plenty of air coming through the firewall vent and the deck lid. The extra ventilation you've made with the tubes going to the carbs is icing on the cake.

Seal the areas under the taillights if you want to reduce debris.

The air in the engine compartment is mostly vented under the car by the engine fan. As long as you've got pretty good engine surround seals, it's going to be pulling relatively cooler air in whatever openings are in the compartment (keep the holes away from the exhaust).

On my old IM, I didn't have a hole in the firewall, but had a hole behind the license plate. I logged a lot of temperatures in the engine compartment to see what was really happening. Cooler air did come in the engine lid and through the hole in behind the license plate.

Full surround sealing reduced the air temperature in the intakes which is where it really counts. Since you've got an external oil cooler, you'll probably never overheat, but everything you do to reduce the intake air temperature will translate into more oomph.

Great points. Tom; I suggest installing the thermostat and flap system to help the motor warm up in cooler temperatures. What the others have said is spot on and it looks like what you have done so far is good to bring in fresh air from the top and behind the firewall.

Since you have a remote oil cooler - I'd add a thermostat to bypass the oil cooler until the oil gets hot.  If you can get to the oil lines it is easy job. $100 for part.