New VS broken down

Lfepardo posted:

I'm with Troy and Longfella ... Things break, and mechanical failures can't be attributed to a particular builder.  

I have owned several previously owned  VS, and currently own a 2013 new build, and could not be happier with his cars and the service and support received from Kirk and his team.

Was some sorting required with the new car?.... Some very minor stuff....  like with most speedster new builds from all builders.  This is part of the learning curve of the ins and outs of each specific car... And also part of the fun.

 IMHO Kirk is a good and honest business owner, who builds a good custom product at a reasonable price point that allows many of us to enjoy this hobby.  He has been building 4-8 cars a month for years, and in my experience has always done the right thing for all his customers.

I know it has been said before, but here it goes again,..IMHO It would be best to deal with any sorting issues directly through the builder....  No need to trash him or his cars on this site.

 These cars are not Toyotas, and any expectation that they will run as one will lead to great great great disappointment.... And probably one of the main reasons why you see so many speedsters for sale with less than 1000miles.

Totally agree! There is nothing like driving speedster around, so much fun!

Lfepardo posted:

I'm with Troy and Longfella ... Things break, and mechanical failures can't be attributed to a particular builder.  

 

To whom should the mechanical failures be attributed?

I made my living fixing complex mechanical systems-- so I get that sometimes something slips through the cracks, and something bad happens. We bend over backwards to make sure it doesn't happen, but sometimes we get a bad part or one of the guys misses the root-cause of the problem.

The problem is, this isn't a sometimes situation.

One point is a point in isolation. Two points is a line. Three points is a trend. This is a pretty well established QC problem that requires either a change in suppliers or processes. It has nothing to do with whether or not some guys get a good car, or even if the majority of guys get a good car. If a company can't say that almost everybody gets a good car, then there's an issue-- "custom built" or not.

Back to my business: what we do is complex, and it isn't cheap. There is no shortage of people who look at their equipment and think, "Bob's Heating/Cooling/and Coin-Laundry Repair can do this for $42.50/hr. Why in the world would I pay $98.00/hr?" It works for some of the people some of the time-- but when the chips are down, and it's 6 PM on Christmas Eve, and $40,000 worth of fresh meat is 60*, and "Bob" is drunk down on Key West... that $55.50/hr savings starts to look like a pretty bad investment. I don't pay my guys $16/hr-- they make a professional wage because they are professionals. If we have a QC issue, more often than not the guy takes care of it on his own time-- not because I'm a slave-master, but because it's an embarrassment regardless of who or what was at fault. It's our name and reputation on the line. It's personal-- for the guy, and for me. 

Quality costs money. America was built on people paying for quality and getting it. We have mostly forgotten that, and will buy an unworkable piece of junk cast in some mud-hut in east Asia if it saves us 20% (then spend 35 hrs massaging it to kind've work). I had to have my thinking seriously recalibrated regarding what a quality replica speedster would cost. Most of us have not undergone those kinds of recalibrations. 

To be blunt: Intermeccanica and Beck buyers don't seem to have these kinds of consistent mechanical failures. It's not to say they're aren't some isolated small glitches that need attention, or that Carey and Henry are perfect-- it's just a statement that is borne out by the record.

I bought my Intermeccanica as a "coach" in 2005. It had no running gear. Henry was concerned that he iron out any potential issues, so he installed his own engine and transaxle and drove the car around for a couple of weeks before he took his stuff back out and shipped me the car. I have had zero issues. Not one. Ever. So when I hear, "these are custom cars, and of course there is going to be issues", I cannot relate-- either personally or professionally. 

After his VS supplied engine shelled, Will Hesch was given a $5000 credit to go get the engine he wanted, built by the builder of his choice. I can guarantee that Will's new set-up cost well north of $5000-- and that's kind've the point. Well built VW engines are no longer a $1500 proposition. The "price-points" we're all used to are no longer relevant. A $20K Prius is irrelevant as well. This is rapidly becoming an expensive hobby.

Stuff that is not guaranteed to break costs more than most people are willing to spend. The business model that I think is crazy to employ, and even crazier to defend is to hastily assemble marginal running gear and components, then rely on after-the-sale goodwill credits for the not-insignificant number of buyers who experience disappointment or worse.

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
    as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
    and to heed is better than the fat of rams." (1 Samuel 15:22)

THIS is why there are so many cars for sale with <1000 miles. They aren't Becks, and they aren't IM's. Buying a car shouldn't be like buying a raffle ticket.

A man doesn't always get what he pays for, but he always pays for what he gets.

Always.

Forewarned is forearmed. 

 

David Stroud posted:

edsnova posted:

Although chicken pot pie is delicious (ALL pie is delicious, come to that), I might just prefer a well-made beef pot pie.

You should taste my Osso Buco......

Hair for me....just sayin'

Heiserb1 posted:

Although I am not pleased with having my new car break down, and then push it for several hundred yards... I know things need to work in, I knew there would be tweaks and things that needs to be sorted out so far Vintage Speedsters ( Kirk) has been really cool and easy to deal with. I know things will be sorted out and my car will be back up and running great. I will let you know the details as I find out. I am not concerned that Vintage Speedsters will not do the right thing, I just want to cruise around in my new cool car. 

And you will soon be doing just that Heiserb1.  Can we look forward to seeing you this June at the annual Speedster Owners gathering?

By the way, welcome to the madness!

I sure wish I had the $10, 20, 30K or more it takes to buy a completely trouble free Beck or IM, they build beautiful cars, but I don't.  So, I'm more than happy to drive an affordable Vintage Speedster and won't hestitate to recommend a Vintage to anyone who can't afford the thousands of dollars more that will guarantee zero issues.

I never noticed, but are the SEGs bigger on any particular owners face?

Troy Sloan posted:

I never noticed, but are the SEGs bigger on any particular owners face?

When they are all driving, probably not.

I would guess, however, that the guy standing in the dark beside his brand new, inoperable, $30K car (alongside some interstate highway 500 mi from home and a $500 tow from anywhere that can fix it) probably has no SEG. I can guarantee that Mrs. New Buyer's Wife has no grin of any kind, SE or otherwise. Unfortunately, there are way too many new buyers who have had just such an experience, and even more who's significant other will no longer ride in such a conveyance even after it has been satisfactorily repaired.

The question boils down to, "what should these cars cost"? Everybody has their own value calculation for what this hobby is worth to them. Troy clearly comes down on "significantly less money and at least a fair potential for problems" side of the street. I get that, and would have zero problems signing up for that... as long as I knew that this was the situation up front.

So, as long as a guy knows this is the deal (spin the wheel, bet that you win), I've got no problems with anybody making the choice. Indeed, I think the smart money is doing what Will recommended (buying a new VS with an owner supplied engine and transaxle), or what Jim Ignacio has done twice (just buy a car with a happy little engine, and don't expect to exorcise the ghost of Ayrton Senna every time you climb behind the wheel. Hakuna matata).

But if we are going to act like these are isolated incidents, or that "there's nothing anybody could have done", or even that guys who shell out $30K and end up beside that interstate are somehow to blame because their expectations were too high or something-- then there is a problem with us as well.

I'm not advocating for anything, other than that we stop making excuses for what is clearly not the buyer's problem.

You guys all make great points for each side of the argument. I'd like to point out that a person can have the best of both worlds in a CMC. Just takes 40 hours.

I still want to know what's wrong heirserb1's car.

Ted

None of us have any idea what % of the cars built by any of the builders actually have problems.  It's all speculation based on anecdotal information posted on the SOC and shared at gatherings.

Beck, IM and Vintage all provide a 1 year warranty with their cars and they all stand behind their warranty.

I have owned and driven approximately 30 Vintage Speedsters and, as I said earlier, I would not hesitate to recommend Vintage or any of them for that matter to any new buyer.  Unfortunately, there are builders who I would not recommend.

What Troy said!

Interesting post.  

Sometimes the builder is not at fault but must make good for a bad supplier.  

While QC is in the builders hands,  there is no part that cannot fail.

If might start another thread to explain my statement.  

Ok, we got that all settled: some builders are princes, and others, not so much.  it is what it is, and generally you get what you pay for.  So the REAL question is: what the heck happened to this brand new engine?  When are we going to get the full story here?  It should be back at Kirk's by now . . .

https://youtu.be/0Wi8Fv0AJA4

My car had all kinds of trouble because the engine installer did not know what the hell he was doing. Cost me near double what he promised and I'm still working the bugs out a year-+ later.

The worst goddamn thing about it is that he's me.

Stan "to who should the mechanical failures be attributed to?"  I would think that buying new would give you some warranty.  Contractually to deliver a car we expect it to be of course a full functioning vehicle, with engine and tranny running.

Mercantilable,

<dl class="dictionaryTerm"><dd>def:n A product which is undamaged and usable and of sufficient quality to merit purchase at the requested price by a reasonable buyer.</dd></dl>

Maybe the manufacturer should take more care in their partners and suppliers and demand a little more?

"Maybe the manufacturer should take more care in their partners and suppliers and demand a little more?"  Nail head, meet hammer. 

Lane Anderson posted:

"Maybe the manufacturer should take more care in their partners and suppliers and demand a little more?"  Nail head, meet hammer. 

Well, that is easier said than done.  As some of us know, this problem exists in other branches of this hobby/industry.  It is sometimes very frustrating to try to get replacement parts in the British sports car field.  A lot of 'replacement' parts are made off shore, but that is the only source.  Places such as Moss Motors try their best to get parts made to their specifications, but they only have so much influence.  When I was restoring my MGB, I searched low and high for original (OEM or NOS) parts, and avoided replacement parts as much as I could.  There are some small scale suppliers who have good stuff, but they are in the minority, and only specialize in one or a few parts.

Also: Cost differential is not linear. So, say the OEM piece cost $40 when it was still being made in the original factory to original specs. The "knock-off" with slightly lower quality would have been, say, $30 then. Today you can get a knock off of that knock-off for $22. With inflation it's as if you were paying $9 back in 1978 or whenever. 

The to-OEM-spec piece now made by a craftsman? $320.

This problem extends to almost everything that is manufactured. I've noticed it's especially prevalent in tools. We all remember when Craftsman tools were pretty good, Husky was really good, etc. Nowadays everything is really cheap, but nothing much has the quality the older stuff had. 

I'd love to haul off and do a 5000-word magazine story exploring the whys and wherefores of this. Trouble is finding an editor at a glossy, $2-a-word book that would understand what the hell I was talking about, let alone think any readers would care.

If my name was in the final product...and remember i have built new with both vintage and special edition...i would do everything to work for quality in parts, pre inspect before install, post inspect after 25,50,100,150,200 miles and when i see a pattern of consistency in any issue then i work to fix with supplier or change supplier and eat the extra whatever to make the next one going out the door better.

I know when special edition finds a recurring issue, they find a solid fix and that is what happens on all the cars going forward.  I know this from experience.  I also know after hearing all the vs issues alot have had, that they are recurring issues that dont change regardless of what it costs manufacturer everytime they have to send a part to the buyer, etc.  i know this because i had a lot of the same problems.  Issues with paint, oil fittings, leaks, brakes, carb set up, loose pieces, etc.  

push for quality in your people and your suppliers.   If not then tell everyone buying that chances are you are getting a 90% turnkey car and the buyer has to bring it the other 10%.  And yes, I would put money on it that it is why the absolute majority of all speedsters for sale under 1,000 miles are Vintage.  You dont see any IM and rarely a Beck...and when you do they have been driven thousands of miles and they are the first ones you would jump on if you can afford them because they are generally that much more quality.

if you are going to build 90% of a car, then market it that way.  Tell people what they should expect to have to do with the mechanics and tuning and double checking torque specs etc.  Others are having a blast buying basically new cars with less than a thousand miles, sorting them and then reselling.  Maybe Vintage should send all final production to Troy...he seems to sell the best Vintage speedster around (and Troy that is not me knocking you...i know you dont just work in vintage cars and i am congratulating you on your success with these cars.)

yes they are hand built but that dorsnt give a manufacturer the right to lag in quality.  Hold your people and your suppliers accountable and fix the issues.  Be great at what you do regardless of price point...help people enjoy their 30, 40,  50 and sometimes 75k brand new car...

And oh btw i loved my VS ...after countless hours at a mechanic shop and waiting on parts to be shipped to me to fix it.  Ince sorted it was gorgeous. 

We are but a small fraction of this (remembering that our cars are for the most part VW based) hobby/industry, and (somewhat sadly), this has been discussed too many times on the other VW forums. People just don't realize that something bought (cheaply) twice (or even 3 times) isn't good value. Not only is paying for something twice more expensive, most don't figure in the time spent changing out parts or how it cuts short a great afternoon or weekend again (and sometimes, again).

If we were collectively willing to pay what it takes for properly designed parts made of the right material and heat treat (and whatever else that may be necessary) that's machined (or, in the case of electrical stuff, built) to original or better spec, companies like Gene Berg Ent. (and others) would still be alive and well, this hobby would be flourishing, there would be the right climate for more innovation (we would be seeing more neat stuff being developed, but nobody these days is going to go to the trouble just to have all their time and hard work ripped off  in a poorly constructed, cheap-a**ed piece from China) and Empi (and others) would be forced to either rise to the occasion, or move to another (mini-truck? ricer? ??) market. Unfortunately, most VW people are tight wads and don't see the false economy in buying crap, so we're getting what we deserve.

To the argument "but Empi makes some good parts" I'm going to answer- why should it be a crap shoot to find out what's reasonably well made and what's not? Unfortunately (again, I have to use that word) there's a sucker born every minute, a lot of them seem to gravitate to the VW world, and we're ripe for the pickin'.

My apologies; a 2 or 3 sentence comment has turn into quite the rant. I've been a hobbyist since 1974 and have witnessed the degradation of quality over the years. It's not THE ONLY reason, but I think a large factor in why we see so many low mileage Speedsters for sale after a year or 2 (or ??); people walk away disgusted because they can't buy reliable replacement parts and their cars spend too much time in the garage. They write it off as a bad experience and never come back.

Gene Berg saw what was coming and wrote an article titled "The Killing Of An Industry" in 1980 (I think). It's copyrighted so I won't reprint it here, but if anybody's interested I'll send it to you. PM me. And I'll give you 1 guess as to whom he was talking about...Al

“There is hardly anything in the world that someone cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price alone are that person’s lawful prey. It’s unwise to pay too much, but it’s worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money — that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot — it can’t be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”

John Ruskin, The Common Law of Business Balance

So true, Stan, so true. A comment by a major or general in an episode of Mash has always stuck with me- something along the lines of "always remember that your equipment was made by the lowest bidder". Yeah, it was tv, but still scary, when you think about it.

"These cars are not Toyotas, and any expectation that they will run as one will lead to great great great disappointment.... And probably one of the main reasons why you see so many speedsters for sale with less than 1000miles."

Ain't that the truth.

I'm sure that there are cars being sold with low mileage because the owner experienced some sort of major equipment failure, but that is a very small percentage of the total.  I bought over 30 in the past several years and most of them had less than 5,000 miles on the odometer.   By far, the main reason they are being sold, is that the owners have lived their dream and need to move on to other dreams.  In fact, when I buy one, my test drive is typically less than 1 mile and in a few cases I have bought sight unseen, because I know that almost anything on these cars can be fixed inexpensively.  I am always much more concerned about the condition of everything else on these cars. 

Interesting perspective, Troy. I'd never considered that avenue when we've discussed this in the past. Thanks for the info. Al

This has become a bit of "serve and volley" so I'll return:

I struggle with the premise that the much larger pool of people who don't post here have better luck than the sampling of people who do. We can't possibly know, so why do we suppose the experiences are better than the people who post here? I don't think the guys who post here are looking for an avenue to complain-- I think they are all pretty reluctant to admit they would do it differently if given a chance.

I also have a hard time believing that if an object of automotive affection was "fulfilling the dream", it would be cast aside in less than 1000 mi to chase some other dream. I have no doubt that this is the reason given for selling, but I don't see people consistently dumping any other type of car after 500 mi and 3 months, and I follow a fair amount of forums.

 

Hey Al,

I thought that quote was from an astronaut regarding a spaceship being made by the lowest bidder.  Maybe John Glenn, someone like that........

It can be a depressing thought and process to go through a build to find out you paid a lot to get disappointed and you paid dearly to learn a lesson.  You might have gotten better informed and minimized the pain but due to unrealistic expectations it happened to you anyway. 

Not being transparent with why your selling is simply a coping mechanism in my opinion, for someone who lost face and feels he was taken in the process of buying his car. 

 

Imagine the guy builds a car and then some catastrophic tranny breakdown, nearly lifethreatening at 70mph... He is stuck on the side of the road has to incur all sorts of expenses towing, and lodgings for a week of repairs... Sure the builder might repair the car if the car can get to him. BUT? who covers the extra costs?  Think about that now.  Is it the builder?  Is it the Part Supplier?

Frank C. posted:

Hey Al,

I thought that quote was from an astronaut regarding a spaceship being made by the lowest bidder.  Maybe John Glenn, someone like that........

You might be right as to where it originally came from, Frank, but that's where I heard it...

It was Allan Shepard... Speaking after his Apolo 14 mission... Last and oldest man to  walk on the moon ( at 47) and hit two golf balls off the lunar surface...   

"It's a very sobering feeling to be up in space and realize that one's safety factor was determined by the lowest bidder on a government contract."

as an Aero engineer, he was one of my heroes growing up... 

Allen Shepard. Thank you.

And the problem with the motor..... Drum roll please.... Bad Cam gear!  Now how could that be anyone's fault... Vintage Speedsters took care of this with no issues what so ever. I can't wait to drive my cool car around again. Thanks to all who tried to figure out what was wrong with the motor, and tried to help! I can't wait to log miles on my cool ride. Thanks again to Kirk who handled everything and took care of the situation. Hit me up if you are in the Orange County/ Chino Hills area! 

Thanks,

B

Congrats on the fix!  Let us know how the drives go!

I happened to be at Vintage on Monday and saw your car and it is a stunningly beautiful color!

It looked like a blue to me,  but Kirk said it is actually green with some blue in it.   I should have taken some pictures, but hopefully you have some you can post,  because I know people will flip over that color. 

Glad it's all sorted out like we knew it would be. 

Troy Sloan posted:

I happened to be at Vintage on Monday and saw your car and it is a stunningly beautiful color!

It looked like a blue to me,  but Kirk said it is actually green with some blue in it.   I should have taken some pictures, but hopefully you have some you can post,  because I know people will flip over that color. 

Glad it's all sorted out like we knew it would be. 

Thanks Troy! Yes it called Fjord green. All I need now are some of those cool cruzin windows! 

Thanks,

B

Glad everything  got sorted out. That color is great. For now I am stuck with red.

Kudos to Kirk and his gang for taking care of this. Aces!

Art

That's a great picture,  but it looks a little lighter and even nicer in person.

CruZin windows are available.