newbie advice please

Do not impulse buy....That company in eastern TN is known as SAS, do yourself a favor , search here to draw your own conclusion as the wait is in years  etc. Vintage: expect to pay about $31,000.....Beck high $30's plus ..some speedsters become available also on this group . No matter where you locate one let us know and we'll be glad to go over it with you herein. 

As Alan correctly stated, you want to choose your replica manufacturer carefully.  I suggest that you do lots of your own research on this site and others, not just ask for advice here.  There is a SEARCH button on SOC and it works well.  There are lots of threads on IM (Intermeccanica), Special Editions (Beck), JPS (John Steele), and Vintage.  There aren't many fans on this site of Specialty Auto-Sports, your Knoxville, TN neighbor.  Best of luck in your search.  If you're comfortable with it, let us know your first name.  Regards, Jim

Now is best time (end of convertible season) cost wise to buy a sorted out/slightly used one.  JPS out of Calif is similar price/quality to VS.  Used IM would be good choice as many are roadsters with windup windows and roomier better supported folding top. There are also nicely finished older CMCs out there.

JKelly posted:

As Alan correctly stated, you want to choose your replica manufacturer carefully.  I suggest that you do lots of your own research on this site and others, not just ask for advice here.  There is a SEARCH button on SOC and it works well.  There are lots of threads on IM (Intermeccanica), Special Editions (Beck), JPS (John Steele), and Vintage.  There aren't many fans on this site of Specialty Auto-Sports, your Knoxville, TN neighbor.  Best of luck in your search.  If you're comfortable with it, let us know your first name.  Regards, Jim

Thanks for the input. My name is Ty. I'm still leaning toward the VS. 

Nothing wrong with a well sorted Vintage. Musbjim is on his second with over 100K miles under his belt. Troy Sloan has a hobby of finding Vintage speedsters used and sorting them before moving them on down the line.  CMCs can be made on par with any vintage out there. You can go that route if you have the patience to buy and fix it up as you go. Depending on your ability to turn a wrench.

In the Speedster world it pays to buy the best example you can afford as your base. Engine displacement should be 1915 or higher. Front disks / rear drums are all you will need unless you go wild in the motor department. The tops are emergency tops at best. They are loud and very restrictive vision wise. A lot like cutting open a basket ball and wearing it  as a hat while you drive.

The process of finding then right car is part of the journey. I was in quite a rush to find my car when I was first looking. I scoured every Craigslist and eBay post from coast to coast. More than once I could have been burned!  I had the fortune of having several members offer to look at cars in other states for me. One member came down from Canada to Washington State to check out a car for me (I'm in California). One member was going to drive an hour across Texas to check out a car. That deal turned out to be a CRAZY story where the guy who was listing the car didn't actually own the car but he was listing it /  trying to flip it before having purchased it from the original owner! The guy who still owned it found out and contacted me and the whole deal fell apart. Who could forget the Topanga canyon / Malibu hippy with the weepy black Vintage?  The Watsonville real estate broker who might want to sell his red CMC if I asked nicely and agreed to worship (pay through the nose for) his brilliant vision; complete with AutoZone stick on trim. Then there was the two or three I looked at which were nothing more than swap meet bodies (no sub frame) and scabbed together pans. People trying to cut their losses can be super shady.  The other end of the spectrum is the guy who has become so enamored with his replica that he lists it for sale at a price so high that it's been for sale for years!  You really wonder if he really wants to sell it (White Thunder Ranch w/Fuchs wheels.)  Then there is BH Motorcars. They buy up a lot of cars and list all of them at 10-20% above market value to artificially 'set' the market price. Nothing wrong with that if you understand it going in. 

The other thing to keep in mind is registration. Know the laws and process for the state you live in. Some states and Canada have restrictions on how a replica can be registered. Some folks have taken extreme liberties with how they register their projects. My experience has been to avoid anything that isn't currently registered unless you're confident in your states registration process. Nothing to get too hung up on if you buy from a reputable shop like Vintage, Seduction, or from guys like Troy/Alan/etc.

Have patience. Be realistic with yourself and the situation. It's a toy car. The entire process should be fun. The right car will find you. I made some cool friends along the way. In the end I sent a check to a guy I had never met to have him buy me a car I had only ever seen in photos.  Kind of bonkers looking back on it. I got lucky and Jim turned out to be one hell of a guy who purchased me a fine automobile. 

Just wait until you try to find the optimum gear ratio for a five speed. That's when the stuff gets real interesting. Oh the stories I could tell! 

Merry Christmas / Festivus / Happy Holidays / non denominational celebration salutations 

Ted

If you buy a Vintage, your best bet is to buy one that pre-sorted. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one from Troy Sloan.

>

Tom Blankinship posted:

If you buy a Vintage, your best bet is to buy one that pre-sorted. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one from Troy Sloan.

>

AGREE.  In your price range you are probably looking used.  This one is a no brainer to me.  If I was buying a used Vintage in that price range I would get one from Troy. 

Or Alan Merklin.  You price range limits your choices on a new car to Vintage only, and even that will be tight.  That's the cost of low volume building.  However, a used Vintage of CMC from Troy of Alan would be a well sorted car at a good price.  Highly recommended by everyone here.

And to answer your specific questions:

1:  are the tops substantial enough to drive long distances at freeway speeds with or without the side curtains installed?

Most of them, especially the "Stay Fast" style fabric tops, are quite comfortable for very long hours, mostly with the side windows in.  Removing the side windows  with the top still up causes the top to "Flutter" up and down at speed and drives you nuts in seconds.  This goes away if you have a zip-out rear window - the air just flows right through with no flutter.  I'm still waiting for someone to try making a "Bimini" style top just to keep the sun off, but no luck, yet.  Maybe they think it would look too "Dune Buggy-ish", I dunno.  What really gets to you with the cockpit enclosed is the engine noise - it can be considerable in a lot of these cars, especially with the top up.

2:  are the heaters on par with a typical classic bug?

Bwhaaa-Haaa!  Everybody knows that the original bugs didn't have diddly for heat!  That's why we all had a windshield ice scraper hanging from the rear view mirrior - To scrape the inside of the windshield!  Seriously, though, the heat in a 356 replica is tepid unless you have a Subaru engine with hot water heat or an auxiliary gasoline heater.

3:  who makes the best replica in the mid to high 20k range?

That would probably be Vintage, but it would behoove you to talk with Carey Hines at Special Edition (Beck) to see what he could do.  Either of those builders have a strong following on here of happy owners.  Of course, the most cost effective thing has already been mentioned - Buy a used Speedster for shorter money and drive it for a while.  THEN you'll know if these cars are for you (Honestly, they are not for everyone...)

 

Lane Anderson posted:

Or Alan Merklin.  You price range limits your choices on a new car to Vintage only, and even that will be tight.  That's the cost of low volume building.  However, a used Vintage of CMC from Troy of Alan would be a well sorted car at a good price.  Highly recommended by everyone here.

I would have mentioned Alan, but it was my understanding that he is closing up shop.

You might be able to get this beautiful Beck for high 20's or very low 30's.  This would be the way to go if you can make the stretch financially.  This is a stunning car with space frame construction.  If I didn't already have a nice car I'd be giving this a hard look.

http://www.beckspeedster.com/p...5whitespeedster.html

And better yet you won't have to ship the car from Cali.  Just wait til it warms up and drive it home.

Also, If you're not involved with the maintenance with your own hands , you must find an air cooled mechanic that you trust to keep your car running and ready to use any time you need it.  

Check this slightly used VS close by in GA - mentioned in earlier thread.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-R...mp;item=371816379805

 

Looking to check out the heat in my CMC in the spring.

As far as older VW's heat since I  kept the cables lubed and proper sealing at exhaust/boxes--NEVER had a problem with roasting toes or clear windshield. They were designed in Germany---gets cold there too. Just a matter of making everything function in a VW.

Thanks for all the advice guys.  I'm glad I joined this group.  Lots of great info here. 

Don't buy one until you drive one!

Wish it was that easy.  I don't know of any near Nashville.  Any Nashville Speedster owners out there ???

ty056r posted:

Wish it was that easy.  I don't know of any near Nashville.  Any Nashville Speedster owners out there ???

@John Lewis

@tigerdean

@Jwbestjr

@bmjwright

@WaywardPluto

@ty056r

@Gremlinx

Are all members in the Tennessee area. I'm not sure how active they are without going to each of their profile's to see when they last logged on or visited. They will be notified via the email they used when they got their accounts. If they still use said email and get the message maybe they will come on the site and help you out.

Good luck.

That's great. Thanks Robert.  Hopefully one of them will let me take them out to lunch and show me all about the speedster.  

-Ty

ty056r posted:

That's great. Thanks Robert.  Hopefully one of them will let me take them out to lunch and show me all about the speedster.  

-Ty

I didn't even realize I put you on the list. Hey, at least you're active on the site now.

Ty,

If contact with those members doesn't work out, you can continue your research for owners near you.  On the top left of your opening screen, you see three horizontal while lines.  Click on those to open your file.  Click on Members, then click on Map, then use the map icons to drill down to the area you are interested in.  It will show geographic area of residence and contact emails.  Best of luck in your search. 

Great��

Ty---Hot springs is an easy 3-hour drive from Nashville--come over and I'll show you my Vintage  that has been to the West Coast and back plus made nine, 2,500 mile round trips to the spring Carlisle event ---Planning #10 already.  The car is water resistant and has a gas heater that will keep you warm as toast in any winter weather.  The engine has more power than the original Carerra 4-cam and has dyno'd at 142 MPH.  The 4 wheel disc brakes make short stops safely.  

I have 49,000 miles on my Speedster and over half are due to Carlisle trips alone.  It runs 75-80 all day long and gives 27-30 mpg while using 1/2 quart of oil for 3,000 miles.  Musbjim can tell you the same story and I believe he has the record for mileage numbers and daily driving.

It is far from the quality of fit and finish of an IM and the same for a Beck but the price tag wasn't $35,000 to $75,000 either.  As many Vintage Speedsters have made the West Coast round trip without drama and it has never left me by the side of the road either.  I can tell you of some other makes that failed to complete that trip too.

Most here will tell you that the car they have is THE one you should get---I won't, as you see but for the money it's a solid car to enjoy if you get it sorted and do the smart upgrades that are possible.  You should absolutely continue your research to see what brand of Speedster would fit your needs the best.  Sadly, the comment on SAS is on point.  I do give them the award for most thorough website---truly drool city!  But I am not sure many cars were delivered in 2015 and 2016 in spite of a waiting list ---I'm thinking none at all,  but I could be wrong so don't take what I say as gospel.  Maybe others will know better.

If you want you can drive over one day, stay with us overnight then head back to Nashville the next day plus learn more than you might want to know about my replica Speedster,  and see my garage full of car show trophies.  However, I'd never win a trophy at the Carlisle event because of the truly spectacular Speedsters there, but in Hot Springs, AR it's pretty special.  As I read once "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king!" 

You are doing the right thing to do your research on this site which more folks should do before getting a Speedster.  The bad news is that it is not a Miata.  That's also the great good news! 

Call if you like to set up a visit--you'd be welcome.  501/620-3831.

 

Great info and thanks for that awesome offer.  I may just take you up on that.  I spoke with the owner of VS and he seemed really nice.  He gave me a good quote too. For the car with front disks and the 3.88 trans. I can't see any reason why I would want anything larger than the 1600 also.  I've had several VW's a few high end toys and wanted for several years to go back to air cooled.   There's just something special about simplicity.   I have a company car so I can take my time and do my research. 

So glad I joined this group.  Car guys are the best!

-Ty

Ty, The 1600 will not make you happy even though the speedster is 400 lbs lighter than the Beetle you'll want at least  1776 or for a few more schillings a 1915 above that you need more pocket jingle to cover additional cooling and beefing things up. Yup we're one happy family that seldom gets into heated discussions.

Jack, I believe you're thinking of Memphis, which IS about three hours from you.  Nashville is another three or four hours farther east.

Ty, should you have reason to head to the Carolina coast (Charleston), I'd be happy to give you some time in my '06 Beck.

Thanks for all the great advice guys.  I'm really leaning towards a new VS. one more question tho. (Probably not the last haha) , several people have said Vintage are really good once hey are sorted out.  I'm confused about that.  If I buy a brand new one , why would it not be perfect from the factory?  

-Ty

ty056r posted:

Thanks for all the great advice guys.  I'm really leaning towards a new VS. one more question tho. (Probably not the last haha) , several people have said Vintage are really good once hey are sorted out.  I'm confused about that.  If I buy a brand new one , why would it not be perfect from the factory?  

-Ty

The $100,000 question.  That's why people like to buy from Troy or Alan.  They are the sorters.  I bought a used Intermeccanica.  Took a month and $5k to get it sorted (in retrospect still a good deal).  Typically the new lower priced cars JPS, Vintage need more sorting.  But new IMs and Becks even need a little sorting some time.  That's why sometimes its nice to buy close to home.  Most of the shops will stand by their product, but how do you get the car back to them.  That will usually be on your dime.  I have heard of Carey going way out of his way to pick up a car and make the car right.  Honestly Ty, I've had 4 kit cars and there is nothing like buying close to home.  I live in VA and if I was getting another car I would be talking seriously with Carey from SE. If you have a lot of mechanical expertise and lots of free time on your hands it probably doesn't matter what you get. But you may need a bit of help even if you buy new.  Nice having the manufacturer close by. Just my 2 cents.

Gordon created a checklist for accepting a "new" Speedster.  Ordering one and having it delivered to your door thousands of miles away is not prudent.  Take a 2 week vacation and fly out at the end to inspect and put some miles on it with understanding that full payment will not be made til it is acceptable to you.  Drive it up and down the coast then return it to have work done before having it shipped. Have a SOC member periodically go by and check on it during build.  VS seems to do NO quality control.  Speedsters have puked oil just miles from being picked up, steering has come loose from steering box, 3 out of 4 hub caps went their own way.

I'd definitely go with at least a 1776 cc engine - with non-stock cam and dual carbs (even a counterweighted crank).  There is a VS dealer in Atlanta that pre-sorts their cars out before selling - www.southatlantamotorsports.com in McDonough, GA

Many people get into this hobby hoping to drop $20K for a sports car with their reliability reference being a modern car.

Some facts:

1) This is 1950's (or earlier) technology
2) Some of the replica parts are great & some are crap
3) Air-cooled engines require a lot of maintenance
4) Our souped-up air-cooled engines are pushing up to 150 hp out of an engine originally designed to produce 25 hp and require even more maintenance
5) They were never designed to be weather proof
6) The heat is next to useless
7) Build quality goes up with price

If you get this with the intention of driving it as a 3rd car, fair-weather toy, that is slightly safer than a motorcycle and is a hot rod that requires continuous maintenance and will strand you from time to time, you have the right attitude.

A lot of these issues can be improved with a better design and better build quality (Beck or IM) and the price goes up accordingly.

It's way more expensive than I could have ever dreamed, but I have the madness and there's nothing like it. I would have been far better off with a used Boxter or newer Miata, but I wouldn't get the buzz out of driving it.

I started out with a Beck that the good folks on here helped me spec out new. I've spent the last 6 years reengineering the bits that aggravated me including a Suby powertrain swap.

Most folks get into this, realize the pitfalls, cut their losses, and sell.

The folks on this board are too far gone. It's like interviewing the inmates at the asylum :-).
>

Tom's right.  After my first spyder I bought a boxster S thinking that would bring me back to reality.  Nope.  Sold it and got another spyder.  Pure Madness.

Lane---thanks---you are right on mileage to Nashville---it is 6 hours, not 3 like I said--I have made that drive enough times to know!  

Ty---you mentioned a contact from another VS owner and said he gave you a good quote.  Understand that I am not inviting you over to sell my VS and I hope I didn't give you that impression.  I don't expect to ever sell this car and will eventually just leave it to my son if he wants it.  Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression.  The overnight stay makes more sense than ever given the length of the trip.

 

 

 

 

 

Jack is being prudent about the time from Little Rock to Nashville - he probably makes it in three hours in his Speedster, but that wouldn't look good to any Law Enforcement viewers on here, so 6 hours it is, right?    OK there, Jack!      (I remember one night hauling Pearl back to Beaufort and hitting I-77 pretty late, running the truck cruise up to 90 and getting to Charleston in real short order!)

We usually encourage new, Speedster Wannabes to go the used car route for a few  good reasons:

1.  Often a used one has quite low mileage because the original owner thought that he/she was buying a new, modern car with all of the modern touches, like reliable fuel injection.  They are not.  They have carburetors, something new cars haven't had since 1983 and few people still remember how to work on.  These cars often smell of raw gas and exhaust fumes, they have a lot of wind buffeting when under way, the suspensions are stiff so they vibrate quite a bit.  Nothing like, say, a new Mazda Miata or Audi TT.  Guys often love them, Gals often don't - sometimes the best you can expect is grudging tolerance.

2.  Used cars often have startlingly low mileage on them because of #1, above, but are then at the end of their "sorting process" and often have few bugs thereafter, especially if they've been sorted by Troy or Alan.  But they will have issues from time to time, so you either need a competent Aircooled VW guy nearby to work on it or do it yourself.  If you are not of the mechanical persuasion, find that Aircooled guy and treat him/her like that long-lost cousin you really liked but couldn't marry.

3.  After you've owned it for a year and then have a better idea of what you really want (which might NOT be a Speedster, at that point), it most likely hasn't lost appreciable value so you get your money back.

We don't call this "The Madnes" for nothing.  Other people wonder why we do this in a world of increasingly bad parts, lack of service opportunities and the low emissions and care-free operation of "modern" cars, but for some of us it's a wonderful place to be.

Sorting:    IMHO it's sorta crap shoot. When I do a car I try my best to wrench it as if it were my personal ride with safety, being the utmost concern.  The quality of some parts can be a pita,  I do miss some things but do make it right it's called integrity.

Remember that these are essentially hand-built in low volume, so the economies of scale and the mass production techniques used by folks like GM, Mazda, or Porsche are not available to them.  Parts must be purchased from third party manufacturers so quality is difficult to control.  All of this conspires to raise costs and induce reliability issues.

All of that said, the idea of a custom car built for you that you are unlikely to see at every intersection is seductive.  Most of us here enjoy tinkering and don't see increased regular maintenance as a negative.  Breakdowns are a different matter, but there is always satisfaction found in overcoming such challenges.  I think what I'm doing here is trying to explain to myself why we enjoy "the Madness" so much, and give you a dose of reality while convincing you that all of the negatives are outweighed by the positives.  Of course your mileage may vary.

Good advice Tom, Alan, Phil... I read all your points and concur completely.  If you live by a builder your golden if you like their cars, if not the caveats above are so true, no builder is able to perfectly control all aspects of the build, parts suppliers or even build partner/supplier.  Sometimes sorting out the car can be madness in and of itself.  Try doing the sorting 2000 miles away and you add another level of insanity which is the manufacturer/builder greatest nightmare so to speak.  

I went looking for a sports car 10 years ago and absolutely nothing interested me... sure they drove nice, new, turn the key, fast, etc.  Honestly, they just did not do it for me and I found them just plain boring.   For me a new Mercedes, BMW, even Porsche is somewhat boring... just not visceral enough and too many automatic pilot features. The only thing I feel like doing with those is raw speed ....R8 like. 

On top of which I have a value issue with some of these new car manufacturers as I seem to always ask myself if it worth the extra X $ for this compared to a Honda or other value considering they all bore me and are just basic transportation IMHO. 

My IM takes me back to the days of my original 356A and I just like that era and maybe I like the nostalgia of my youth... but then I am driving it and it just was absolute fun to do the Oregon mountains with 25 miles of curves with my son.  Flat out fun cornering with the IM with it's 911 front end and sway bars and the torque of the Subie engine ... 

New cars are just too boring for anything but basic transportation.   

Yup, you have got all the good poop about how to get in with the Speedster business. Essentials:

1. Drive one

2. Go visit the builder, if you are going to have one made, look him in the eye, kick the tires.

3. Run, don't walk, away from SAS.

4. Decent used cars can be had, lots of advice here about how to find one. Allows you to see if the whole thing fits your expectations, and if not, you sell out and maybe lose little or nothing. key word here is expectations.  Manged properly, you will never have so much fun.  Sounds to me like you pretty much know what you are getting in to.

Keep us posted.

I've got a brand new Vintage coming up for sale after I have driven it enough to stamp it "sorted".  Probably in the next 2 weeks.

-=theron

There ya go ...Contact Theron !