Newbie with many questions

Carlisle is a city in eastern Pennsylvania.  Events are held there every weekend in the summer.  Each one has a different emphasis.  Speedster owners attend one in May that originally emphasized kit cars and imports.  It has mostly moved away from kit cars but we still attend.

On a pan based car, you can see the additional frame under the car.

Do the wide body speedsters fit wider tires? If so, do they generally corner better?  I don’t care as much for the look of the wide body, but I sure do like to turn.

There are at least 3 bodies termed wide-body.  The FF/CMC is more a flared fender style Officially called the California model.  It had optional chrome and gold wider wheels but others will fit.  The VS came in a wide body and an ultra widebody.  The ultrawide had a Kardashian butt loo. They lay down more rubber so surely accelerate better.

 Do type IV engines fit in most of the replicas?  Is there any advantage to using a Type I engine instead of a Type IV?

Yes, a T4 will fit - even using the flat pancake cooling.  The back square 1.5" steel tubing may have to be cut and moved couple inches to ease installation.  Many convert to upright cooling but it adds $1k to build and usually eliminates the thermostat.  T1 parts are generally cheaper - at least up to 2100 cc.  A T4 can easily go to 2400 cc and 200hp. (You just need to use a bus flywheel and add a center T1 bearing to it.

 How do you know or speculate that a car was built by the manufacturer, ie.  Beck, Vintage, JPS, as opposed to bought as a kit and assembled in someone’s garage?  Or does it even matter?  Maybe some of the garage builders are better than the manufacturers?

VS and JPS (maybe a tube base is now an option) are VW pan based.  Beck is tubular custom chassis (as well as current IMs - since about '87?) .  VS, JPS, and Beck all sell "rollers" where customer adds finishing pieces.  Many CMCs were custom built by professions - but vastmajority were home build.

 Did 356’s originally come with 4.5 inch wheels?

Early 356 were 3.25x16" and later 4.5x15" wheels.

If a car has an additional frame added, is it obvious by looking at the bottom/floorpan?

Bestplace to look would be front and rear wheel wells.  I know of NO VW pan based Speedsters without the heavy steel sub-frame - it is used to hang doors and front hood.

 Do the replica coupes have any steel in the tops or fiberglass only?

My guess is all fiberglass.

 Where and when in Southern California is a good place to meet other replica owners?

 I have experience working on Vdubs 35 years ago, but no experience working on Subarus.  I still have my 36mm socket.  If you were me, which would you lean towards, and why?

Subaru if you don't want to adjust valves and change oil every 3k miles. Subbie if you want AC/heat and EFI. VW if you want air cooled sound.  

 What is Carlisle?  An event or place, or both?

Carlisle PA is home of Army War College and Carlisle fairgrounds where many car shows are held.  Pick a Mark and they have a weekend show for it.  Replica Speedsters showed up for the Foreign and Kit Car one - name has recently changed.

 Do some of the replicas not have heaters? And if not, why?

You can use the stock VW heater boxes but most have restricted diameter tubing for large displacement/HP engines.  Larger diameter heater boxes are available but costly.  Some go for gas heaters as used in old VW/Porsche - Stewart Warner and Ebersparcher.

 How is the reputation of Beverly Hills Motor Cars?  They seen to have many 356’s for sale.  Has anybody seen the Beck Speedster at Corvette Mike's in Anaheim?

BHM - overpriced and they don't have the cars advertised in stock.  Should they sell a car it remains listed for a coupleyears.

 What do you read to learn how to tune dual carbs?  Or video? Youtube?  I still have the thing-a-majig that sits on top the carb and has the ball in the clear tube, but I can not remember diddly about how to use it, nor do I remember how I learned in the first place.

Just pick Danny P's brains - cost is a few good IPA beers.

 Where do you find the valve lash numbers for modified engines?  Are they always the same as factory?

Steel push rodsrequire different setting from aluminum one.

 Why do some 356’s have the leather hold down straps on the front lid?  Looks only?  Or does the front lid have a reputation for releasing at an inopportune moment?  We used a bungie cord on our Type Is.

Just for looks - racing 356 used them as an extra precaution when racing.

 It seems to me that drum skins would make the discs run hotter.  True or False?a

True if used on exclusivelyracing car.

 Which thread talks about pros and cons about different engine sizes?  The last time I worked on Vdubs, the largest reasonable engine size was 1835. Anything beyond that was guaranteed to blow up after 10,000 miles or 3 miles if driven a ¼ mile at a time.

How fast can you afford to go?  A 1776, 1915 (with right innerds), or 2210 are popular sizes. 

 Who is YOUR favorite air cooled builder? Subaru builder?  I said favorite, cuz I understand how subjective the question is.

Pat Downs has a well earned AC reputation.  As did Jake Raby - but he seems to have migrated to Subaru engines.

 Do you have any idea just how much one can learn by reading the forum posts?  It is mind boggling; literally.

You can take the SOC PHDtest to earn a degree.  With $4 you get a grande coffee at StarBucks!

Do you have any idea just how much one can learn by reading the forum posts?  It is mind boggling; literally.

If you sign up as a premium member there are some areas of the website not available for those who opt for the free membership. Use the magnifying glass in the upper right corner, two boxes left of the blue avatar box. Enter your question and, yes, wade through all of the responses.

Robert M posted:

Do you have any idea just how much one can learn by reading the forum posts?  It is mind boggling; literally.

If you sign up as a premium member there are some areas of the website not available for those who opt for the free membership. Use the magnifying glass in the upper right corner, two boxes left of the blue avatar box. Enter your question and, yes, wade through all of the responses.

Done. Thanks.  And thanks to Michael and Wolfgang.

Welcome to the forum! Lots of people here who will get you up to speed.

Todd:  Things have evolved for the better with engines in the past 30+ years, so that now a 2,110 can produce a legitimate 145 hp AND be reliable AND last for 100,000 miles.

That said, I'm retired and usually add 2000 - 3000 miles per year to my car, so it'll take a heck of a long time for me to get to that magical number.  In the meantime, I just enjoy having an engine that I can depend on that gives me twice the power of a stock, original '57 356, plus the benefit of front disk brakes.  All good, in my book.

Welcome to the forum!  Take your time, read through back threads (that search function mentioned is really powerful - I use it a lot) and take the winter to become "edumacated" on the cars and reach out to meet some of the SoCal contingent (there is a pretty large group of active members out there) to see their cars and go from there.

I, too, started working on VWs starting back in 1966 or so, building a dune buggy clone of Hal Haven's wooden buggy in 1967 and never looked back.  It's been a great hobby and THIS is a really decent website.

Welcome to the Madness!

Gordon - The Speedstah Guy from Massachusetts.

(Where just this Autumn, we've received over 18" of rain - Wish I could send some out to you guys and gals where you need it - We're saturated!)

So, I am looking at internet listings and something catches my eye.  Any idea why Beck would use a swing axle rather than IRS?  The car was built in 08.https://classiccars.com/listin...tas-california-95035

All Becks (until now) have used the swing-axle. You'd have to ask Carey why that is, but I suspect that it's because Chamonix in Brazil built the bodies/frames until about 10 years ago, and Brazilian Beetles were always swing-axle.

The "super coupe" (and I assume the Speedster to follow) will use a modern IRS rear end and an A-arm front. It'll be a major leap forward.  

More questions:

Why the Mobil winged Pegasus?

 From what I am reading, it appears that IM has put a flat 6 in some 356’s?

 It appears that some sellers, especially dealers, don’t know a lot about what they are selling.  Or they just don’t think it is important to list all the info they have.  Are the different manufacturers open to sharing info on cars they built?

 Does the back end tend to break out when cornering in a rear Subaru engine car?

 Do you think the coupes are stiffer than the Speedsters?  They are in steel cars, but I have no idea if fiberglass coupes are stiffer, (corner better), than Speedsters.

You can get a new IM with a complete 911 suspension and the Boxter 6.  As expected, quite costly though.  Pegasus is from vintage racing days. You really want an engine spec sheet when you purchase a car.  Too many buy used with no idea of engine size - hard to tell if 1600 or 1915 cc by looking.  Subaru engines aren't much heavier than AC plus you have a cooling radiator for extra weight up front so unless a 300 hp turbo Subaru I suspect handling is same.  I've not seen dreaded cowl shake on any Speedster - the steel subframe or tubular chassis makes it stiff.

Here’s a good video of what goes into a custom, Porsche 6-cylinder Intermeccanica - Bob Carley’s gem of a car from up Canada way:

For your other questions, yes, some “dealers” don’t really know either what they have to sell or how to properly market it.  Sad but true, and caveat emptor.  If you inquire about cars (new or used) directly from Intermeccanica (Henry Reisner) Vintage Motorcars (Greg Leach) or Beck (Carey Hines) you will get complete and honest answers - those guys are all straight shooters and sometimes show up on here.

The rear end will break loose on any of these cars, aircooled or Subaru back there, if you’re running a swing arm rear suspension and push it too hard, just like the original 356’s.   It’s MUCH harder to break the rear loose with an IRS rear, especially if you have a widebody and can fit 225 or larger tires back there (I have not been able to break my IRS with 225’s loose and I’ve tried really hard). 

I don’t think any of us have enough experience with replica coupes to know if they are stiffer than Speedsters/Roadsters - They’re pretty new to us and not many of them around.  And then there are all of the possible differences in suspensions under each and so on.  Suffice to say that, with proper suspension upgrades and the right tires, either can be made to handle like a banshee, especially with an IRS rear.

Hope this helps......

Todd, it's natural to want to figure out what's desirable in one of these cars by researching online. And it's good to learn as much as possible about the various options before you start writing checks.

But at some point, you just have to get out and see - and possibly drive - the cars to understand what they're all about.

They're so different from any modern, mass-produced car (in good ways and bad) that it's hard to get a feel by just reading words. An hour or two at a Cars and Coffee, at a club event, or just having a beer with an owner, will tell you things that it's hard to read between the lines of online discussions.

Money may not buy happiness, but the more of it you spend, the more Speedster you get. Seeing the cars and driving them will show you the difference between what $30k buys and what $40k or $50k, or even $80k buys. And of course, if you're willing to do your own wrenching, you can save a ton of money by doing your own building or upgrades.

We all have our own comfort levels about what compromises we're willing to accept. So, you're really the only one who can decide which car is right for you.

As Gordon suggests, the search tool here is a great place to start. If nothing else, it will keep you entertained with just how far off subject most discussions drift. But sooner or later, you'll just need to touch some fiberglass to find the truth.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 

Todd, it's natural to want to figure out what's desirable in one of these cars by researching online. And it's good to learn as much as possible about the various options before you start writing checks.

But at some point, you just have to get out and see - and possibly drive - the cars to understand what they're all about.

They're so different from any modern, mass-produced car (in good ways and bad) that it's hard to get a feel by just reading words. An hour or two at a Cars and Coffee, at a club event, or just having a beer with an owner, will tell you things that it's hard to read between the lines of online discussions.

Money may not buy happiness, but the more of it you spend, the more Speedster you get. Seeing the cars and driving them will show you the difference between what $30k buys and what $40k or $50k, or even $80k buys. And of course, if you're willing to do your own wrenching, you can save a ton of money by doing your own building or upgrades.

We all have our own comfort levels about what compromises we're willing to accept. So, you're really the only one who can decide which car is right for you.

As Gordon suggests, the search tool here is a great place to start. If nothing else, it will keep you entertained with just how far off subject most discussions drift. But sooner or later, you'll just need to touch some fiberglass to find the truth.

 

38 years ago, I had a '59 356 A coupe.  I rode a bike and took the bus more often than I got to drive the car.  I had to sell it when my father got fed up with the car and pieces of it always in his garage.

Many have recommended buying a used Speedster initially - especially if you like to fiddle with cars as a hobby.  The low mileage new ones you see are from folks that had expectations that didn't match an antique vehicle.  Prices are lowest now and it could be a fun winter project.  I've seen a couple as low as $14.5k-$16k.  Here's one in Cal and it already has the Pegasus decals:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/cl...etail.php?id=2223296

WOLFGANG posted:

Many have recommended buying a used Speedster initially - especially if you like to fiddle with cars as a hobby.  The low mileage new ones you see are from folks that had expectations that didn't match an antique vehicle.  Prices are lowest now and it could be a fun winter project.  I've seen a couple as low as $14.5k-$16k.  Here's one in Cal and it already has the Pegasus decals:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/cl...etail.php?id=2223296

I actually contacted the owner of that car.  The paint is not really my cup of tea.  I truly do not care for the brightness of the interior.  Single carburetor.  It has been a few decades since I have worked on a VW, but that looks like a 6 volt generator to me.

And what is that red semi circular thing?  Fan casing?  Broken?  Does or did SMC strengthen their bodies with a steel frame?

All in all, needs new paint, new engine, new interior, maybe work on the transaxle, front end.  $16,000 for this sounds way more expensive than a $30,000 VS in good condition.  On the plus side, taking it all apart to paint it would be a good way to get familiar with it.  And I would not feel like I was wasting money by changing/upgrading anything on it.  What do you think?

I just had a visual; my wife seeing the car for the first time and saying how cute it is, and the next day walking into the garage and seeing it all in pieces.

Purchased a few years ago with a Nevada registration by someone in California, but never registered in California.  Begs the question of why.  Could be that it was never intended to be driven,  only used for "promotional" purposes, but could also be that it can't be registered in California.

Be very careful about this one. 

"I just had a visual; my wife seeing the car for the first time and saying how cute it is, and the next day walking into the garage and seeing it all in pieces."

Been there, lived through it.   It wasn't easy.  Required lots of 'splaining.....

I'll bet that CMC still has the original Gel coat finish and was never painted.  All FF/CMC (that I'm aware) of came in finished gelcoat finish saving builder from having to immediately paint vehicle.  Some gel coat colors like black were extra cost. If so the stickers can come off and the gel coat wet sanded and buffer up.  I doubt it would ever compare to a profession $4k+ prep/paint job but the gel coat is durable for a driver.  New interior is about $2500 and could be changed to beige to match the top.

Dropped in at Vintage Motorsports at lunch time today.  OH MY GOSH!!!!  I felt bad after because I think they had to get the mop out to clean up my drool.

I see photos of many cars with hubcaps, just the bare stock wheel.  Is there a general reason for that?  Like they get stolen?

No-hubcap look is preferred by some owners. Looks more like a period race car or a car that might be or might have been raced.

A lot of this hobby is sort of pantomiming what we lived (or imagined we could have lived) as 20-year-old hooligans way back in the day—to sip from the chalice of greatness. At least it is for me. There's a reason this is called "The Mitty."

Todd M posted:

I see photos of many cars with hubcaps, just the bare stock wheel.  Is there a general reason for that?  Like they get stolen?

Most, and that's my option, people with 4 lug beetle wheels of any design will run with hubcaps because 4 lug rims don't look as cool without hubcaps. Wide 5'ers want the world to see those sexy Wide 5's with long black studs so they run around the city naked, for everyone to see. The rest, they puts Fuchs on their cars and strut around in a completely different way.

Yeah, we be like, “Hey!  We know 356’s never shipped with Fuchs 5-spoke wheels, but they be lookin’ so cool, right?”

They’re the best hubcaps for 4-lug hubs, evah!

I just read this in an ad:

Chrome 5 1/2" x 15" front and 7" x 15" rear chrome wheels and covers.

Is it standard for the various replicas that the rear wheel wells can fit 7" wide wheels, and a corresponding width increase in tires?

It seems that some of the first Speedster replicas did not have a metal frame added, but used only the VW pan.  In what year did replica manufacturers start adding a steel frame?  And which manufacturer(s) built cars with the pan only?

I honestly don't know of any kits or builds in the past that did not have the body sub-frame installed.  It's what holds the body erect and together.  If you didn't have a sub-frame under there you would have body-to-pan alignment problems, panel movement and surface cracks all over the place.  After all, the "pan" is exactly that - a flat, shaped surface to mount the very bottom of the body to.  there is nothing on the pan that sticks up to mount and support the upper body parts like the cowls, doors and fenders.

I know Wolfgang has posted photos of a separate CMC sub-frame and if it was sold as an "option" it had to have been in the early 1980's.  Later than that and they all came integrated into the body by fiberglassing them both together.

The photos of the CMC subframe are from cars that have burned (most likely). The subframe is what the door hinges mount to as well as the front hood hinges.  I know some CMC came with the subframe not riveted/bonded to the fiberglass body - but they did get the subframe.  My kit was called a deluxe - and that included the subframe attached as well as the doors hung (but not the door handles).  You can separately buy the subframe and fiberglass body from Rusty Tubs but suspect that is because they sell mostly replacement panels and don't specialize in single entire kits.

For a car that had operational doors, the VW pan would be far too flexible.  Open both doors and like an old rusty OEM 356 Cab, it would fold in half!  Dune buggies on 14" shortened VW pans don't seem to have subframes but then they don't seem to have doors either.

Does anybody know enough about metal replacement to be able to guess how much it would cost to fix this pan?

I was probably mistaken, but somehow I thought that there were some replicas produced that did not have frames and the doors would open or close when lifted by a jack.

Todd M posted:

I just read this in an ad:

Chrome 5 1/2" x 15" front and 7" x 15" rear chrome wheels and covers.

Is it standard for the various replicas that the rear wheel wells can fit 7" wide wheels, and a corresponding width increase in tires?

I've had a pair of original later 15x6" Fuchs widened 1" to the inside (so they're like the original 911R 7" wheels, as opposed to a regular 7" Fuchs which has the extra width on the outside) and with 205's it looks like they'll fit with type 1 brakes, irs trailing arms, and my home made spring plates. I will be using type 3 rear brakes (adds 5/8" width per side) so will have to narrow the trailing arms 1/2-5/8" to make it all work. I think a regular 7" Fuchs (with 205's) would fit on a swingaxle car, provided it had the earlier shorter (to1966) axles/tubes with type 1 brakes. There's also the axles and tubes from the even earlier (to 1960) cars: I don't know their lengths, but I suspect it's the same or very close to the '61-'66 assemblies. IIrc there's about an 1 3/4" (per side) difference between the earliest and latest swingaxles, with '67 being somewhere in the middle. If you'd like to know the specific lengths, ask and I'll look them up later.

Whether those 7's you saw in the ad will fit a particular car will depend on their offset/backspacing. With 3 different swingaxle lengths (and irs being the same track as the 1968 and newer axles and tubes), most (if not all) disc brakes adding 1/2-5/8" (per side) to the mix and wheels having different offsets/backspacing, you can see why there's no simple answer. The Fuchs wheel chart- look at the difference between the 2 7x15's, and there's even 2 different 8x16's as well-

I haven't seen it in years, but there is (or used to be) an older IM Speedster in Vancouver with 8" alloys and 225's on the back, and the car didn't look flared. The guy did it with the pie cut method. This is a real coupe, but you can see the principle-            before-                                                                                                                                                     

and after-

So that's a real unibody 356.  The 2 side longitudinal heat channels look to be worse off than the pan/  It looks to be wire bushed - if you were to soda blast it there would be far less to work with.  Check with Tullio (Ashcreek)  - he is doing one now in his shop in CT.  It is time-consuming and tedious with thousands of spot welds to drill out.  Replacement metal is readily available.  Trouble is once you start the project grows. I'm sure he can give idea of parts cost and time invested.

@ASHCREEK

https://www.speedsterowners.co...d-have-left-it-alone

Just need these bits - and lots of sweat equity!

Or email Adam Wright at Unobtanium in New York.    adam@unobtanium-inc.com

He's made a business out of supplying parts like that to the 356 restoration crowd.

BTW, you can do the fender-widening pie-cut trick on fiberglass, too, as IM did on Bob Carley's car a couple of years ago:

@WOLFGANG said- "So that's a real unibody 356.  The 2 side longitudinal heat channels look to be worse off than the pan..."

You are right, Greg; that car needs a little work! Wonder what that will cost... _{(but then, that's what you get for needing a "real" 356!)}

@Todd M- aircooled Beetle convertibles, while using the same pan as sedans, have extra longitudinal bracing on the bottom of the body as well as extra bracing throughout the car to keep them from flexing.

"I was probably mistaken, but somehow I thought that there were some replicas produced that did not have frames and the doors would open or close when lifted by a jack."

I'm pretty sure all Speedster replicas have some sort of steel sub-frame (as I think someone already mentioned). I have an early Intermeccanica (one of Frank Reisner's 600 or so that he and his partner built in Los Angeles in the late '70's before moving to Vancouver) and the sub-frame is glassed to the body. Some CMC cars (and maybe others) do have what some on here call "butt sag" and need additional bracing to the rear of the frame so the doors keep opening properly (and the car from flexing), but all IM's (and Beck's, I believe) have it already welded in. Al

TD replicas do not have a steel subframe atop the pan and they hold together OK, though they are not as stable or stiff as a Speedster.

+1 on the pie-cut fender widening. 

Todd:  The restoration of 356 cars has a cult following and that cult usually (but not always) has very deep pockets.  A friend of mine bought a pre-A coupe semi-basket case that I would have walked away from (and my metal-working skills are pretty good).  He was a neuro-surgeon and really, really, really wanted this car.  He had it transported to Meister Restorations in New Hampshire and there, after almost a three-year process, took delivery of his restored dream.  Meister did a superb job - the car absolutely looks brand new, inside and out and is a gorgeous Bali Blue.  He bought the car for around $60K and dumped another $120K into it (all he'll own up to) and still figures he came out ahead.  He also drove it to the Porsche East Coast Holiday this year (in Georgia? I think)  -  Had 150 pounds of spare parts with him (he's still building his mechanic skills after retiring from Veterinary Medicine) and never used even one.

Given all that, I would still expect the car to return to Meister every other year (if not sooner) for touch-up work as it is still a metal car and will still rust, somewhere, starting with the Battery box.

If you get the floor and sill metal and do the work yourself, I would expect the cost to be several thousand, at most, assuming you can remove the spot welds (there is a special hole saw for this) and weld in the new panels yourself.  Be aware that you'll probably end up buying $200 - $500 worth of tools to do the job, but you get to keep those as an investment.  The new panels won't be spot-welded as the originals were (lowering its' future resale value) but it will be strong and last, especially if you weld all along the panel perimeters.  Remember that as you begin to remove the obviously rotted metal in there now, you will assuredly find even more rotted stuff lurking behind the obvious stuff - It just goes on and on.

If you take it to some place like Meister Restorations in New Hampshire (and there are others around the US), plan on a 1 - 2 year queue and then another year for the work to be done and somewhere in the vicinity of $20K - $30K unless they find more things to fix while they're in there.

@edsnova- I forgot about your car, Ed! You did a great job.

Todd M posted:

Does anybody know enough about metal replacement to be able to guess how much it would cost to fix this pan?

I was probably mistaken, but somehow I thought that there were some replicas produced that did not have frames and the doors would open or close when lifted by a jack.

 

Todd. Did you mean would NOT open or close in your post above?

The old Vintage Speedsters website used to mention the "jack test" when advertising the fact that their body's had an integrated box steel frame.  The test suggested that jacking up a Vintage Speedster under one wheel would not cause their body to flex like it would on some other Speedsters. I don't know if that was just advertising hyperbole or if there really were Speedsters that didn't have an integrated frame. The jack test comments are no longer on the new Vintage Speedsters website, but I have seen it mentioned very recently in an eBay sale.

Is that possibly what you saw? 

I have seen folks replace 356 floor pan pieces by drilling 3/16 holes where spot welds would go and then welding thru that hole into upper cleaned metal.  It ends up looking like original spot welds.  But it takes a lot of time.  It's called a plug weld.

Troy Sloan posted:

Todd M posted:

Does anybody know enough about metal replacement to be able to guess how much it would cost to fix this pan?

I was probably mistaken, but somehow I thought that there were some replicas produced that did not have frames and the doors would open or close when lifted by a jack.

 

Todd. Did you mean would NOT open or close in your post above?

The old Vintage Speedsters website used to mention the "jack test" when advertising the fact that their body's had an integrated box steel frame.  The test suggested that jacking up a Vintage Speedster under one wheel would not cause their body to flex like it would on some other Speedsters. I don't know if that was just advertising hyperbole or if there really were Speedsters that didn't have an integrated frame. The jack test comments are no longer on the new Vintage Speedsters website, but I have seen it mentioned very recently in an eBay sale.

Is that possibly what you saw? 

Yes, "Not" is what I meant.

Rust work is never ending IMO, you just start and revisit forever unless you start a new.  There are all sorts of new parts vendors now for 356 but if you haven't got the skill to do the work you could be going down the road sideways.   

Early 2000, I sided against getting a 356 coupe and doing a total restoration.  I wanted to drive the thing and not bow down to it.  

I am happy that I chose and IM, but as you all know the crazyness is that your never really finished