Newcomer needs help deciding which to buy

Hi,
I'm doing research on which Speedster to buy and have some questions, I hope someone will help.
1. Is buying a car with a VW pan a negative?
2. Do the companies usually bead blast and powder coat the pans and replace rusty components so the pan looks new under the car?
3. Is it worth it to get the IRS setup?
4. Which cars has consistently excellent fit, finish, paint and upholstery?
5. Has anyone bought a Fibersteels or Automotive legends car?
6. I would like the large bolts pattern stock wheels, can I still get discs?
7 Anyone ever drag race these things? What kind of perf can you expect form a 2100cc car?
Who makes good frames if I choose not to go to a pan car? Are they reasonably priced?

I hope all these questions aren't too stupid but I figure for the money I'm going to lay out I could get a new Solstice so I want to make sure I do my homework.. Thanks a lot, Frank Payne

Welcome to the madness, Frank. I've been in your position for a while and have only recently pulled the trigger. You'll find a lot of useful information on this site so I'll recommend doing a search or just some free-form digging through past threads. However, I'll summarize what I found as long as you're aware of the caveat this this will be one person's opinion.

- Pan vs tube frame: The subject of many a religious war, there are several historical threads about this. I think the conclusion is that while many tube frames offer some engineering benefits, under normal use most folks won't be able to tell the difference in most instances as long as the pan frame was done properly. Tube frames do offer a slightly roomier interior.

- IRS vs swing-axle: Again, a lot of discussions on this. The concensus is that - all other factors being equal - IRS is the way to go BUT a swing axle can handle well and has the benefit of simplicity and commonality. A swing axle car will need a camber compensator ($65) and maybe a front sway bar.

- Wide-5 wheels and discs: Yes, it can be done.

- Fit and finish: Here's where I'll offer blatant opinions based on what I've seen in my research. Oh yeah, all price info I have is from websites and is for turn-key cars. For pure fit and finish, I'd say Intermeccanica (IM) and JPS Motorsports (JPS) are equal and at the top. IMs are built on a proprietary frame with quite a few advantages including roll-up windows, but they are quite a bit more expensive than the others - starting at over $30k. JPS is pan-based, although John Steele does offer a tube frame as an extra-cost option. His cars start in the low-mid $20s. The other major vendors are Special Editions (Beck, tube frame, upper 20's), Thunder Ranch (TR, partial tube frame utilizing a VW rear section for ease of titling, no price info), Vintage (VS, pan-based, low $20s), and Specialty Autoworks (SAW, mid-engined Subaru-powered and built in small quantities, not sure about prices). The pictures I've seen of the TR cars look great, but I've never seen one in the flesh, so I have no opinion on quality. There are several owners on this site. VS offers the lowest entry price and has the most owners - most of whom seem very happy with their cars. Those who have SAWs love 'em, and they are definitly the most modern mechanically. The one I saw in the flesh was beautifully made.

I am getting a Beck being built at the Carlisle, PA show and am about as excited as a kid at Christmas. I have enjoyed working with the vendor (Carey Hines at Special Editions) and expect the build-up to some serious fun. I like the 3" diameter DOM tube frame design, as well as a number of other features. You can private message me for more details.

Basically all of these are fun, so it comes down to the features you want and how much money you have. It'll be hard to go wrong. Oh yeah, I have a buddy with a new Solstice (he let me drive it - very nice!) who thinks these have a higher "coefficient of cool". I didn't look to see where you are located, but I STRONGLY recommend that you attend either Knott's Berry Farm show in LA in April, or the Carlisle, PA show in May. These are the two largest shows in the US and most of the vendors will be at each. It'll give you a chance to compare them side by side. Good luck!

Frank,

I have owned 2 Speedsters, and owned both at the same time. One was swing axle, the other IRS. Both were Intermeccanica's, both I believe were originally factory built in the 80's. Trust me on this point, the IRS was very much the way to do it....It handled signficantly better "stock" than did the "stock" swing axle car. As already pointed out you can improve the swing axle performance significantly, but while I am guessing on this, my guess is the stock IRS would approach about the best you hope for with swing axles +/- a bit. You also should look for ball joint front ends, I have seen link pin, but I don't think anyone is building new with link pins these days. As to the swing axle versus IRS it really only matters if you intend to drive the car very hard, or road race it, and or go with a high output engine. Under higher HP the IRS car I owned was much more stable when I got all over it. It seemed to have significantly less bad habits when cornering really hard also. The swing axle tended to "tuck" and when it started that you were likely to swap ends of the car with no recovery.....

As to wide 5's with disk brakes, yes you can do that. I am running just that on my Spyder at the moment. The Spyder has a swing axle layout that I would love to convert to IRS, but that is not nearly so easy with a mid engine as it is in the Rear engine Speedster. If you want to look at that photos of the Spyder and a couple of the Speedsters they can be found to the excess at http://www.pbase.com/tmpusfugit/jims_550_photos&page=all

Frank, welcome indeed to the madness as Lane calls it. I want to second his suggestion to attend one of the national events to get a better picture of what is currently available and to gain valuable information by what you see and hear by looking at cars and talking to owners. This is a fun hobby and I think just about all of us like talking about our cars and sharing our experiences.

Further, I would encourage you to click on the "Makers" tab on the top of the page of this website. This lists, I believe, all of the current makers as well as a few who have gone out of business. All of the makers that Lane mentioned have a website and some go into great detail as to what goes into their cars and, in some cases, what the basic models cost. Contact information is provided as well.

IMHO, you should avoid resellers that act as agents for the builders. Too many of the guys who post here have shared bad experiences related to dealing with this type of transaction. Go directly to the builder seems to be the mantra here.

Personally, I have owned both a swing axle, pan-based VS and my current ride, a proprietary structural tube-framed SAW. I am no formula 1 driver by any stretch of the imagination, but there is no comparison of the handling on the same set of twisties with the two cars. My current ride is very neutral when cornering and confidence inspiring. It was a good choice to me and thank you Lane for the compliment.

Onward to Carlisle and Speedster building!
Hoss

All the previous posts have been spot on. I'd like to add another comment: If like me you're the kind who likes to keep the look as well as the stance of an original Speedster as close as possible and are not a racing maniac, swingaxle is your choice. Although it's the earlier more crude design it's still the most strong (less parts to break) and more widely available as they were manufactured in vastly larger numbers than the IRS systems. I installed EMPI's camber compensator bar in 10 or 20 minutes and it totally eliminates the "wheel tuck" that was mentioned in an earlier post; the car is so much more stable now it's unreal.

Thanks Ricardo for adding that input. My VS was in "as delivered" form and my driving impressions may have been vastly altered by making some mods (ie. camber compensator and anti-sway bar) to the basic design.
Hoss
ps. I loved my VS too....no question about it.

Hoss, can you post a photo of the sway bar arrangement you settled on? I can't use the EMPI rig -- I don't think -- because I now have three inches cut out of each side of the rear torsion.
I'm looking at a rig that's twenty-nine inches wide at the tips as the widest I can use, and I'm going to mount it under my rear cage and top tranny support bar.
I don't know if that's do-able. Photos of what I'll have to work with in a couple days.
To Frank's original question - I had IRS and loved it. Couldn't make the modifications I wanted to make with the IRS, so I converted. I really liked the smooth ride the IRS provided on the highway, though.

Cory, these are the pictures of my front anti sway bar, but I don't think they will help you since they are part of a custom and proprietary chassis.
Hoss

This is a photo of the type of installation of a Bugpack heavy duty (3/4") front sway bar that I have in my car.

The BugPack is exactly what I just cut off. Thanks for the photo, Ricardo.
Hmmmm. ...
Hoss, guess I'll have to go custom. Won't be as heavy-duty as yours, but it'll be something in that vein. Thanks for the art. I'll do some R&D and see what I can come up with.
Thanks.

Frank: Just in case you didn't get a chance to do "SEARCH" on the subjects you asked about. David Barrett (tel: 559 876 3217) builds tube frames that can be used as an alternative to the cleaned up VW Pan Frame. I saw his frame last year at Knott's and it looked like a good alternative to the VW Pan.

Be aware, builders using the original speedster body molds will still have very wide door jambs (which reduces seating area) and because of the arrangement of the interior wheel-wells, on the early molds, the leg room will be more crowded in most of the cars intended for VW pan frames or "builds" using retrofit custom frames under the early body molds (designed for VW Pans).

I think most VW entusiasts agree the IRS was a well conceived and well engineered improvement. I don't think there's any reason to go with the swing axel config.

Be aware that several builders use early body molds that were passed around as the early builders changed owners, or sold their original tooling, etc. Many of these early molds pass-on flaws that were in the donor car's body (bad body work from an accident to the right front). These flaws create the necessity for a lot more prep work before finishing the car (more resin and more block sanding). I've been told some of the builders haven't been willing to devote the time and expense to the additional prep work. If your reflection (from the right front quarter panel) looks like a "fun-house mirror" the prep work wasn't done. I suggest you make such prep work a condition of your purchase agreement. Also, before you buy, I'd suggest going to Knott's or Carlisle to see some of the cars on display and to talk to the builders who attend these shows. And / or, visit Southern California where three Speedster builders produce cars.

Frank. Feel free to write if you would like info on my experience with an Intermeccanica Speedster. Or you can check out the Registry for other IM owners to contact. For any 'brand' of Speedster you are considering your best source of info will be through private contact with owners. Also consider a good used replica. There are always good clean speedsters for sale, many with low miles.

Hello Frank, I still hope your looking here, and about... I have to tell ya that you are making a great call to buy a speedie, and you best look into it and get as much research as possible.. that includes this site my friend... These guys helped me buy my 1st Speedie and I am totally excited about it and have been having a blast! and I got a great deal too! The funny thing was for about 11 months my tag line here was "Still Looking"! The best advice I got was this... if your not sure about a "New" turn-key then look into a used one with low miles.. This info allows you to get into a unique market like the Speedster without breaking the bank. I have seen (On this site) guys buy these sweet looking new cars and in a month their butts can not handle the hop or limited leg room or something that makes them sell their "Brand new" car.... Keep looking and get the best deal, then JUMP on it when YOUR ready.. Remember its a buyers market here or at least till spring time when every guy wants one and starts looking around too. Oh yeah about the Solstice.. those sweet looking cars are running about 6 or 7K over list... so you could probably kiss that idea goodbye !

Good Luck to you....

Speedster "D"

Thanks for all the responses guys. It really means a lot to get info from people with experience. I wanted to share a couple of things: Although new to Speedsters and VWs, I have owned a restoration shop that performed national quality restorations on COPO and Yenko Chevelles and Camaros therefore I am very particular. I am now retired so I would rather buy a car turn key than build one hence my questions to all of you. My other thing that may queer this deal is size, my size rather. Unlike some of you with height concerns my problem is the other direction -width. At 5'8" and 280 I'm not sure if I can squeeze my butt into one of these little jewels. I sat in a '63 Beetle last night and was surprised to find it rather comfortable so would a Speedster be narrower or wider? I talked to Henry at IM and he said to get the roadster seats. Are these available from JPS, Thunder, or Vint?
Are any of the cars roomier than other? I am also thinking of buying a complete car minus engine and either buying an engine from a perf builder or building my own. I thought I could have a little fun and save some bucks. Dumb idea? The car I am leaning toward is a stock looking wide 5 car. IM looks to be the standard but are the others close in fit, finish and assembly quality? Thanks again guys. Frank

Check with Dale Bates. He is of similar size and has an IM with roadster seats. He has driven the 450 mile one-way trips to LA 8 times, to McMinnville OR (700 miles+) 4 times and many other medium distance tours. He is very satisfied with the roadster seats both in shape/size and appearance.

Frank; I'm also around 5'-8-1/2" but less heavy. I guess it would be a little difficult for you to fit in a VW pan based Speedster, especially with the original style "Spyder" seats. Your best bet would be to go with a tube frame based car such as Beck, Thunder Ranch or Intermec. I guess that with all three builders you get the choice of the engine builder or supply the engine altogether so I figure you're on the right track.

Frank: I also own a