Next up: roll bars

In another thread here, I was going on about headrestraints (HR) &/or cushions, and there are some neat ideas in there about ways to do this and improve safety, by some margin. What I have been looking at is to not modify the seats to include a HR (although JPS says they would give it a go, just send $$); not to use differnt (e.g., 914, Miata) seats -- way off the Speedster look -- and so have come to the following. Two low profile roll bars with a padded insert set into the profile set just behind the seat. The overall look would be soemthing like the way the Boxters are done. I imagine to have the bars trimmed in vinyl (padded?) to either match or contrast the other interior trim, also like the Boxter is done. So question to the Forum is: like everything else I have been dreaming up and feeling very special/clever about these days, I bet this has been done a hundred times already. So, to either put me over the hump, or show me the error of my ways -- pls send some pix. Who has done this, or something similar? And I have decided against the turtle back tonneau/cowl, which was mentioned in the other thread. So have at guys, I'm putty in your hands . . .

Have you thought about buying a Miata instead?

If you have your heart set on a Speedster from JPS then make sure you have it built with the optional tube chassis. Then have John put a REAL roll bar in there for you. That's about as safe as you're going to get with these cars.

Are you looking for a functional roll bar/bars or just for beauty sake? I would recommend a functional multi anchored roll bar because a beauty bar would probably just collapse on you in case of a roll over. Not good! I'd sure consult JPS on this feature since I think John Steele has done it both ways.

TO QUOTE JOHN WHEN HE BUILT MINE AND I ASKED FOR ROLL BARS.
"THEY ARE ONLY FOR LOOKS"
"THE CAR IS TOO LOW TO ROLL"
"WHY DO U WANT TO TEAR THE BACK UP TO PUT THAT IN"
WELL JOHN WON OUT AND I DIDNT GET THE ROLL BAR BUT I HAVE PICS OD WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE ILL POST IN A MINUTE

HERE IS JOHN BITCHING AS PUT THE ROLL BAR IN PLACE

if you are going for functional most organizations require the driver to be seated in a normal position with helmet on. The roll bar must clear the helmet by 2" at the top, both sides, as well as any other plane of "interference". Also, the tubes in most organizations will require a foam padding of x " thickness and of such and such density foam.....gets pretty ugly to have one of these things sticking 2' up in the air covered with foam, braced 3 ways from Sunday.....oh you say you just want it for appearances? Then think about having a ball bat hit you solidly in the head which is what will happen in the event of a wreck unless it is padded and meets all the height and clearance requirements. Then there are whiplash problems if you don't have high back seats....then you need side impact bars, shoulder harnesses to keep you in the car, and really a full roll cage if you really want to improve safety.

I am of course trying to make a point that has been made before. These little cars are inherently dangerous. A more safe car can be made, suggest if safety is high on your list of requirements, then maybe a Volvo?

Adding a roll bar like most people do makes them more dangerous, not more safe. You are many times more likely to get hit it the front/ rear/ sides than put the car on its top. In every other case you have a big steel ball bat right behind your head that is likely to whack you a good one 95 times out of a hundred. And if you do get upside down all it will do is fold up on you anyhow unless it is .100" moly braced and cross braced etc etc.....my car had a cosmetic roll bar. The first thing I did was remove it....

these things are at best a death wish on wheels....drive defensively, remember the average driver may not even see you, install a very loud horn, paint your car "arrest me red" or banana yellow....

Kelly,
I'd check with John, he's builing the car and he may be able to direct you. As eveyone, including myself, has told you, these cars are pretty dangerous. I respect your hopeful intentions of trying to improve the safety aspect of your car but again, as mentioned, unless you incorporate the roll bar into the frame and support it accordingly, it's all pretty much cosmetic. In a world of mini vans and SUV's I think it's a crap shoot anyway. Remember, the vintage "race cars" that use roll cages and roll bars are driving in an environment that, contrary to popular belief, is much safer than driving to the grocery store.

All, Well, I asked for it -- and I got it. Again thanks for all the input, however hard it may be for me to take. Really. Meanwhile, I forgot to mention that I am not at all interested in a cosmetic roll bar, so we are talking about function. The ones that I have seen applied, like gerd has indicated, look a bit silly. On the other hand, I am not interested in racing either, so full adherence to this or that safety spec is not part of the picture either. John and I have been exchanging ideas on this, and he says that if he welds in a proper bar structure, you could use it to lift the whole car, no problem. Also, it will stiffen the structure a bit more than the welded frame that is already part of my build. All of that said, once again I am being reminded that the cars are unsafe (being small, light and made out of plastic) and whatever is put in ain't gonna save my sorry ass, even if it works perfectly, and I get on the wrong side (any side) of an SUV hausfrau calling her babysitter to see if it's OK if she is five minutes late picking up the kids cause she's stuck in traffic and can't see my little toy and she is hurrying best as she can -- or some such.

Moreover, I believe that any car that is not literally nailed to the ground can be made to roll over, given the right combination of inital tilt and push. Am I going to flip it over only with steering inputs? Not likely. So let me show you what I thought might -- I say might -- not be so bad. I have pasted a shot of a new Boxter roll bar assembly onto a picture of one of JPS' Speedsters, just to get an idea how something that was done carefully might look. Whaddaya think of this? Now what you see here for the Boxter part is the bars (which are lightly padded), plus the extended seat back, which is the headrestraint. In this view the shape of the bars and the shape of the head restraints are purposefully made to match, so the bars integrate w/ the lines of the Boxter cabin as well as can be. In my (probably faulty) vision, the space inside the bars made for the Speedster would/could be filled w/ a padded insert. As the bar is directly behind the classic Speedster seat, maybe I get some head cushion action. -?- What all this might cost to do has yet to be revealed.

And no, I do not want to buy a Miata; heart is firmly set on a Speedy, plus John already has a good portion of my coin in his account, w/ more to follow, so we are moving out.

Man do I want to get through all this decision sh-- and startt working on something important, like what in the world am I going to have my vanity plate say? So much to think about . . .

PS: Unless I miss my guess, looks like I picked gerd's car out of the JPS gallery to do my "installation". So, there you go gerd, you have your roll bars after all!!

KELLY,
WITH ALL DUE RESPECT YOU OWE ME FOR DAMAGING THE INTEGRITY OF MY CAR

BUT CHECK OUT THE NEXT PIC AND TALK TO ALAN MERKIN
THIS WAS HIS CAR AND HE HAD THE ROLLBARS. OUSTSIDE OF MY CAR (VANITY HERE SORRY)I THINK ALAN HAD A KICKASS OUTLAW WITH THE BARS U WANT.

Kelly - there's a member here with a SS TT style roolbar. Check out Max Zimmer's photo's - it's a beautiful example if I had to get one installed.

Having one within reach of your noggin could prove fatal in a rear end collision. I would want that headrest if you want one that low.

What did you decide on the color? I still like the Metallic Merlo w/light grey. I'll try to dig up a sample photo for ya.

Cheers - Mel

HERE U GO

Found Allen's and Max's car photos. Especially liked Max's shots of the padded bars, and the mounting, back seat area details. I am wondering why the bars have to be so large in diameter -- or do they just seem that way? Also wondering if the upper loop portion has to be a loop. I understand about bending machines, and how that works, sort of, but an other-than-round profile would be great. Anyway, I e-mailed these guys w/ more direct questions, and will wait to see what they have to say. Mostly goes to: how do they like living w/ roll bar in back seat? One thing is becoming clear as I see these pix: having roll bars seems to just scream outlaw look. Not sure this is where I want to go. And yes, I think I am swung over to the CRM. Going to have JPS do a spray-out of this and another burgundy color I saw in recent edition of Excellent magazine. The article is on an old 911 and is currently available on the mag's website, if anyone cares to look. The color is from a 1966 Caddy, if you can believe it. Steele says: can do. Is there anything he CAN'T do? Also note that "won't" and "can't" are two different things.

Henry introduced me to a guy at the IM BBQ two years ago that flipped his Roadster. He had a roll bar in his car and it worked as it should and saved his life. As an aside, he had the car repaired and still drives it. He had it at the BBQ and it looked great.

Kelly, I'm local to you. Feel free to e-mail me at cory.drake AT fmmc.army.mil if you want.

Well, so much for the idea of these car being dangerous. I guess I should have excluded IM's?

OK folks, here it is:

I'm gonna punt on the roll bars, for now. I told John Steele to go ahead w/out. As you might see on my other thread, I went for the Carmona Red Metallic paint too. Now the roll bar idea I still think is an excellent idea, and I have thought that once I get the car, perhaps I'll consult directly w/ a good tube bender, and we'll see what can be done. If I am right there to explain and point, I bet it can be done properly. Working now by phone and e-mail w/ JPS is just not going to cut it. Maybe Cory (who is close) knows somebody who can burn rod -duh!!- and make this happen. I'm still convinced my idea is a good one, and will work w/out overpowering the cockpit. We'll see. Spoke to Steele about where and how to weld in, and so I will have my first project outlined before I even own the damn thing.

Some have asked for the specs on the car, and so now I can tell a bit about that: you have the color, and I will be going w/ Cork leather seats and trim. Will use a darker color (~burgundy) for piping/acents. Car will have the welded tube chassis, IRS, 4 wheel disks, the 2332 cc Weberized engine, driving lights, headlight grills, and maybe one or two other things I can't think about right now. And all by Carlisle, or so I hope. And I gotta say one more time: thanks for all the info and help so freely given and much appreciated.

YOULL LOVE THAT 2332

Kelly,

We've organized a couple of Fall Speedster meets down your way in recent years. Plus participated in MG club road rallyes in that area. Hopefully you'll be able to join us if we hold another Speedster meet this year. We look forward to you coming to Carlisle this year.

ECB

Sorry, Gerd, but John did a good deed for you - that roll bar wouldn't have looked nearly as good as Alan's or Max'z.

It takes a certain flair to pull off those individual roll bars and still make'em look good. Few people find a way to do it well.

hmmmmm.....both of those Y'all picked out were East Coast cars (centered around Eastern PA and New Jersey) . Maybe this is an East Coast thing.....

Darn! You can't see much of my roll bar OR my Boxster-style roll bar air dam!!
Shoot! You can't see Bill Drayer's roll bar on his car behind me, either!

GORDON
EXCUSE MY LANGUAGE
YOUR CAR IS FOCKEN AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JOHN FAVORS AND INSTALLS RATHER WELL THE TYPE OF ROLLBAR U HAVE.
HE WANTED ME TO INSTALL THAT STYLE. I PREFERRED THE SINGLE UNIT AND I AM GLAD I LISTEDED TO JOHN.
U DONT FOCK WITH AN ARTIST AND JOHN IS AN ARTIST
DO U HAVE MORE PICS OF YOUR CAR TO SHARE?
GERD

Gerd:

That picture was taken at Carlisle in 2004 (or so says my souvenir hat!)

Had black Fuchs wheels back then, which have now been stripped and the spokes polished (a God-forsaken job, if ever there was one) and they gave her a whole new look, don't you think?

I've also installed a black chopped top (low bow style) which keeps the rain off, but is usually only up for really cold weather (seldom felt here in South Carolina).

Here's another picture from Roebling Roads SCCA course back in 2005. Kinda like Dale Bates' car if it were Pearl white ;>)

The car looks great Gordon! Hope all is well down in your part of the woods - Mel

ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL GORDON

Gordo, I'm going to park on the other side of the street this year, behind the GT-40 kits. Maybe I'll even pile my car over with sticks and branches to camouflage it.
Brilliant work, amigo.

But I miss the Guiness exhaust tips.

Gordon - I hadn't seen your car with the polished alloys - looks pretty cool! Nice touch!

Thanks, guys.

Lane is referring to the Carlisle before last, when I showed up with Guinness Beer Cans fastened over my chrome exhaust tips (a perfect fit, I might add). Had more people take pictures of those than anything else on the car!! Just wish'd I had some Murphy's Irish Stout cans instead!!!

Just so Y'all know, the look didn't happen over night, either. It took me from 1993 to 2001 to get it finished, so during that time I had a lot of time when traveling for work to think about what I wanted and it just sort of evolved. Like it was supposed to be black until a co-worker showed up with a new Pearl White Audi A4, and Poof!! She became white overnight (at least in my mind). The polished wheels took another three years, and so forth.

And Cory; If you park over there and cover Hoopty up, all we'll do is come over, uncover it and drag it BY HAND back over with the rest of us. The workmanship in your car is to be shown and admired, NOT hidden!!

gn