NHTSA Finally gets off their Butts and delivers a draft of Replica Car Rules

"... use EPA- or CARB-certified current model-year engines..."

For me, that's the rub. Wouldn't that still leave anything built by the usual suspects outside the law?

Do I understand it correctly that there are just too many technical problems with adapting something like a current Suby 2-liter to a Speedster or Spyder?

I’m waiting to see what gets hammered out in the long run (I don’t think is the final version), but it sounds a lot like what we now have in Mass, carried to an extreme.  

Here, any car built after 2011 must have all of the emissions stuff for the year the engine was built, NOT the year replicated by the car.   That’s why the popular donor engine for a Cobra replica is a later year Mustang, complete with all emissions stuff.

I have no idea how this will affect new aircooled builds since you would need at least catalytic converters (and probably more) to pass current emissions, but if you installed a Subaru engine and kept the ECU, engine sensors and Cat converters, theoretically you should pass emissions tests for the current year of the engine.  Going to current model engines could be easier or harder depending on how it’s done. I’m wondering how the “Special Editions” of the world react to this preliminary draft and what, of their feedback, is addressed by the NHTSA.  Time will tell, but just like here in Mass, the more I read, the more worried I get. 

After reading (with limited comprehension) all the Subaru threads here over the years, I'm left with the impression that folks use older Suby power because, after a certain critical year, the computers just got too difficult to keep happy in a transplanted installation.

Is this true, or just my usual muddling of the facts?

Does the whole shebang downshift into limp-home mode if the left-rear cupholder sensor detects beverages that aren't gluten free?

I cast my vote for muddling, Mitch, but my knowledge may be chock full of urban myth also.  Replica builders seem to have different sources of donor Subaru engines: 1) they use a company that specializes either in running takeout engines or rebuilds with some kind of guarantee.  Examples abound on the net, or 2) the builder shops for totaled Subarus with decent engines with fairly low miles, i.e., those with side or rear damage, no flood or fire, etc., then salvage engine, ecu, and any other bits and pieces they need: trannies, axles, suspension, etc.

The criteria of a decent price and not too high a mileage limits choices to models that have a few years on them.  If they were newer, the engine and body would be worth enough to rebuild, unless damage was too extensive.  Too old or too high a mileage, they go to the crusher.

The gremlins you reference above can and do appear, with poor connections and used wiring a frequent cause.  Case in point: in one of my cross-country sojourns, I encountered an intermittent start fault, where the engine would turn one revolution, then quit.  My shade tree skills were of no use.

I went to a "good ol' boys" Subi tuning shop in Flower Mound, TX, who were very hesitant to enter my briar patch, but were persuaded to try by a Texas-sized bucket of KFC original and 2 huge bottles of Mountain Dew.

Turns out it was a faulty key fob that was sensing a security issue and was shutting down the ignition circuit.  I'd still be in Flower Mound if the diagnosis depended on me.  The mechanic took out the fob battery and I was on the road again.

It does help to document all the data you can and keep it with the vehicle, i.e., fuse box locations, wiring color codes, ecu location and year, etc.  The first thing the Flower Mound guy asked for was the wiring diagram.  I gave him my best bland look and ran next door to the Colonel.  YMMV.    

Thanks for the real-world data points, Jim.

So, in theory, it might be technically possible for a replica maker to get a 2020 MY Suby motor running in a Speedster, assuming they could find room to mount a legal exhaust system and all the other sensors and subsystems modern engines need to be happy.

I guess the next questions are whether Subaru would sell them a new motor and what the heck all that might end up costing. Because, as I understand the language in the proposed law, that's the only kind of motor that would be allowed - one from the current MY, with all the approved emissions equipment installed.

Presumably, even if they sold the car maker a new motor, Subaru would never warranty such an installation, and the car maker would be shouldering that responsibility, too.

I can see how this law would make for some pretty pricey replicas and possibly eventually outlaw anything else.

I'd frankly rather have chaos than a lousy set of rules. The size of this hobby is vanishingly small, and poses a near-zero threat to the air quality (certainly less than a the manufacturing process of a new ZEV).

The NHTSA and EPA are not your friends. Don't tread on me. 

I think the key phrase here is "The engine must have emissions equipment for the year the engine was built."  So if you have a 1967 air-cooled motor, then you're ok with a muffler, and if you have a 2010 Subaru you will need a cat and whatever else it came with (charcoal canister, egr, etc). Both things are doable and like a lot of this hobby it sometimes comes down to "open your wallet and it can be done." 

The possible upside is that cars will be able to be sold across state lines without worry of whether the build meets a particular state's requirements (pronounced "Republic of California") if there's standardization. 

All That said, I expect the usual word salad that clarifies little and opens Pandora's Box much.

The problem is that every T1 air-cooled engine worth building on will be built on a new case. There IS no 196X year of manufacture-- it's a new, 201X case. I would suppose that makes it a 201X engine.

Stan Galat posted:

The problem is that every T1 air-cooled engine worth building on will be built on a new case. There IS no 196X year of manufacture-- it's a new, 201X case. I would suppose that makes it a 201X engine.

It says you must use a "...EPA- or CARB-certified current model year engine..."

The way I read this, if you build up a T-1 from a new case, you still don't have a EPA- or CARB-certified engine from this model year or any other model year. There is no such thing as a EPA- or CARB-certified T-1 engine and there's no way that there ever could be, right?

You'd have to use some off the shelf crate engine currently produced by a major manufacturer with the means to get that engine certified.

Morgan gets around similar existing laws in the UK by using currently produced engines from Ford and BMW. Ford and BMW have done all the expensive engineering and cumbersome certification work that even a builder like Morgan could never afford to do.

I think the only car that could possibly qualify under this law would have a new Suby motor and would cost way more than any similarly-powered Speedster you or I have ever seen.

So, even with the new law, most of us would still be flying under the radar or using existing Special Construction programs to get our lawn mowers registered.

Stan Galat posted:

I'd frankly rather have chaos than a lousy set of rules. The size of this hobby is vanishingly small, and poses a near-zero threat to the air quality (certainly less than a the manufacturing process of a new ZEV).

The NHTSA and EPA are not your friends. Don't tread on me. 

I couldn't agree more.  

The level of intoxication for more legislation is always there, and always with people that have no experience in an area.  That is unfortunately the makeup of those that work in the legislator. 

When you know your area and they continue to screw it up how can you have any hope they won't mess up on another area.  They are clueless,  about the custom builder, period.  

Sacto Mitch posted:

The way I read this, if you build up a T-1 from a new case, you still don't have a EPA- or CARB-certified engine from this model year or any other model year. There is no such thing as a EPA- or CARB-certified T-1 engine and there's no way that there ever could be, right?

You'd have to use some off the shelf crate engine currently produced by a major manufacturer with the means to get that engine certified.

That's the way I read it. It's decidedly not good news for retro-grouches wanting to hop up a fancy lawn-mower engine.

I totally agree.  I've learned the hard way here in Mass. that all they look for is the year of manufacture of the engine.  If you can prove with documentation (most important) the year the engine was built, THAT is what they want to see, not the year the case was built or bought.  They could care less about the case.  Also, none of this applies to an original 356 because, if you have a VIN for a particular year, say 1957, that covers everything in the car, including engine - whole different ball of wax.  You could put a 2020-built engine in and everyone is happy.  That doesn't apply to us.

However, this NHTSA stuff, as written right now, goes far beyond that and wants all new car builds to have current-year engines AND be current year EPA compliant.  BTW, that is exactly what the Massachusetts rules say, but they grandfathered in a bunch of older cars like mine if we had proper build documentation.  That definitely does not look good for T-1 aircooled engines.

We need to find a way to provide input to SEMA to lobby for an exemption or something so we have the option of an aircooled (smog exempt) or watercooled (smog compliant) engine and that for our small part of the hobby we can be smog exempt, at least for the aircooled side, with older technology engines, just like older OEM cars still on the road.  If we can get that into the Fed's rules, that would be a BIG win for us all.  

I don't know how to emphasize this more - This ruling as written is not good for us.  Remember that Prarit Bhargava had to buy an older car and get it crushed to transfer the title to his Spyder to get an emissions waiver for Massachusetts?  That option doesn't appear to exist with this ruling.  

It behooves all of us to contact Stuart Gosswein, SEMA’s senior director of federal government affairs, to get a better understanding of the federal rulings (both EPA and NHTSA) and provide our input where necessary to emphasize the number of our cars and preserve our side of the hobby.  I'm sure the various builders have their inputs as well, and we should be closely coordinating with them.  This forum is as good a place for that as any.

Stuart Gosswein, Senior Director, Federal Government Affairs - (202) 777-1220

stuartg@sema.org

https://www.sema.org/government-affairs-staff

Proposed NHTSA Regulations:

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nh...am_nprm_12172019.pdf

I hate to think how this could affect engine builders such as Pat Downs.  I hope he would still be able to make replacement engines for existing, licenced cars.

All,

How do you think having NHTSA involved in the regulation of "kit" cars will be a good thing? SEMA for all they do and have done is nothing more than a trade organization that wants to sell parts. Nothing more. NHTSA is an arm (by proxy) of the government. Sad the reality is I'm thinking if you took all the "kit" cars out there still running you would have far less than 1% of the cars on the road.

IMHO its best not to poke the sleeping bear...

SB-100 in California is tough to build a car with but it can be done even with a 1980 3.0 911 engine. Type -4 will be my next build. Would I put a water-cooled Subaru engine in a Speedster and try to pass SB-100? I don't think so even if I could. Yes the power and reliability is there but it also adds weight and complicates a beautiful simple car. If each state had SB-100 or something like it at least we could have fun and not bring down possibly unintended results to be worse than what we already have.

One mans thoughts for your consideration.

It is unfortunate that those real life statistics are not sent to legislators.

Unfortunately we are all going to be forced to drive autonomous electric vehicles before we reach 2030. All motor fun will be removed by legislation...

VitMan (Jared) posted:

Unfortunately we are all going to be forced to drive autonomous electric vehicles before we reach 2030. All motor fun will be removed by legislation...

Not going to happen. While I like no love electric cars I’ll have a cash of fuel handy. In 2030. 

There are approximately 270 million vehicles registered in the USA. I'd guess there are about 5,000 replica Speedsters and Spyders. 

We are approximately .2 percent of 1 percent. 

Yeah, that's true.  But that doesn't mean we don't have a voice, does it?

I would think we would get more support if we used the 5,000 cars nation-wide number.

Dave,

You make it sound as if we have a choice as to which government entity regulates standards regarding automobiles, and that we should not provoke the regulatory body, NHTSA.  I disagree.  We need to provide an alternative to the environmental mantra that all things fuel-related pose an unacceptable risk to the environment.  As others have pointed out, our hobby is such a tiny fraction of the automotive world that the impact of our participation at current level of output is negligible.  NHTSA is already being lobbied by those who oppose internal combustion engines.  They also need to hear our voice.      

Not sure I understand your position regarding SEMA.  Of course, SEMA sells parts.  A commercial objective of profit does not render them unfit to be a spokesman for the industry.  Who else will foster the ideals we have in common, i.e., less regulation of our tiny part of the car industry?  Perhaps you know of a better medium or organization to advance our hobby's goals.

In addition, you seem to state that a Subaru engine is too heavy and complicated for our beautiful, simple cars?  Yet, you swapped a 1980 3.0 6-cylinder, fuel-injected, dry-sumped 911 engine, weighing 462 lbs. into a Speedster.  That engine is almost twice as heavy as the original 1600 (462/249), and puts out almost 3 times the HP.  It actually weighs more than a 2.5 turbo long block Subaru with attendant bits & pieces.  Thus, your distinction seems misplaced to me.

We all have our own ox we don't want to be gored.  Most of us do not feel hypocritical to advance the positions of a cleaner environment AND an exemption for our hobby cars.  Naturally, since we're all car guys, we can and will go round and round about the best way to accomplish those larger goals we all have in common. 

As political pressures to reduce emissions increase the need to act becomes politically necessary.  In that scenario it's a given that someone’s ox will be gored.  Now one would hope that this would be approached logically by attacking the scientifically and economically low hanging fruit. Things like coal and gas fired power plant controls; wind and solar power increases; efficiency increases for manufacturing,  appliances, and transportation; and the like.  Unfortunately this is rarely how these sorts of things work out.

Government agencies are asshats with no practical idea of what they are putting into law.

I'm pretty sure a new Subaru could be used, but Subaru would have to want to sell an engine/ECU/harness package. That is and has always been the rub of modern powerplants into replicas. The manufacturers want nothing to do with us. No profit in it for them.

What JMM just said first is dead-balls accurate. I fear the rest is wishful thinking.

My stat tells the story: we're far too small a speck in the environmental firmament for any regulator to logically care or worry about.* Or even see without powerful magnification.

I suspect the SEMA process is about to provide that magnification. Most probably we will be cast as (because we are) the recalcitrant, unreconstructed dinosaurs. Nothing we do to "lobby" or speak out is likely to matter one whit. The little air-cooled engines were always going to be banned/regulated out of existence as road-going, legal conveyances—sooner or later. Now it looks like sooner is more likely than later, though it still could be a little later (as a practical matter). Gordon and some of you say let's go in there and explain our position loud & proud.

Our position is what? We're a fading ember of a tiny, marginalized hobby? We pollute very little because our %%$&* cars don't even work half the &&#@!! time and even when they are running strong usually the weather's no good so we only end up driving them 78 miles in a calendar year?

Friends, this is logic. There is no place for it in government.

If we start in squawking about wanting/needing any special exemptions I suspect the ban will come sooner, because we'll be identified and targeted for banning, and will by then have helpfully provided the details necessary for a nation-wide, specific ban. This is how regulation and politics works, according to my 35 years' close observation of it. I'm sure most of you have seen this sort of thing enough times in person yourselves.

By my reading of the regs, we're already required to comply with modern emissions regulations if our vehicles are built and/or first titled now or in recent years. And yet . . . these cars continue to get titled and registered somehow. Sometimes the rule is spelled out neatly, as in CA's SB100. More often it's mysterious and nerve-wracking and involves multiple trips to various DMV offices.

It seems unlikely that any SEMA-inspired regulatory process will make things objectively better.

If we keep our heads down and continue to work quietly with our local authorities and/or DMV-office shop as usual, there's a fair chance we can continue to fly under the radar. We're mostly just old Bugs which have been simplified and lightened. The remaining Old Heads in local officialdom can and will see reason probably for as long as any of us can expect to have a valid license to drive. 

==

*In a year of SEGs our corner of the hobby pollutes about as much as maybe two or three "super-polluting" glider semis or maybe 5 to 7 minutes of a single idling cruise ship at port.

Agreed 100% Ed. Low hanging fruit indeed.

Ask the Texas Dune Buggy guys how they're doing. All their registrations are voided and the Buggys are all illegal now.

Some Texas buggy update info.... https://www.hemmings.com/blog/...-sand-rails-for-now/

Ed's Nova said:

"...The remaining Old Heads in local officialdom can and will see reason probably for as long as any of us can expect to have a valid license to drive..."

Exactamundo.

The folks who run DMV don't give a hoot about emissions, crash worthiness, or public safety for that matter. They're a revenue department. Their job is to generate as much money for the state as possible. If there's some dirty little secret you're hiding about your car, don't ask and don't tell, and they will happily play along.

I think this is why the 'licensing' process here is such a joke (compared to, say, Western Europe). If you can pony up the fees and manage to keep a car going 30 mph in one lane for about 10 minutes without maiming anyone, you're certified.

Senile? Inept at merging into 70 mph traffic? Having trouble seeing smaller things like motorcycles? That's OK, we accept personal checks, credit cards, or you can pay online.

Next person in line, please.

Glad to see Texas has seen the light on buggies, and there is still hope for sand rails.  Since Texas ranks so low on environmental issues, there has to be a really interesting back story on this invented "emergency".

I'm guessing it was an 'emergency' for the insurance industry.

Having made countless many visits to the DMV dealing with replicas etc. in NJ, PA and WV hers's my pitch that almost always works :   Do your homework in advance and have all your documents and paperwork in order and neatly  filled out in advance when possible - Bring your own pen - Dress neatly, perhaps shave and pop in a mint - Enter the DMV with a smile and keep that smile going - When it's your turn maintain that God given smile speaking clearly simply say " I hope you can help me "  ….Usually you'll get some sort of somewhat minimal positive verbal acknowledgement in your favor - Don't ask questions or offer todays antidote... Just listen while still wearing that dynamic smile you walked in with. Hopefully the DMV Trade Winds will favor, your CC - Debit card will work and lastly,  be sure to say Thank You ~ ( There's always another DMV with another opinion of the DMV laws.

Guys...as I said...keep a low profile. Big anything like SEMA or NHTSA is not your or our friend.

Us old folk that remember how to start a car with carbs and keep them tuned are ok. Yeah I like my 2019 Subaru Crosstrek and how easy it starts and runs but...I prefer my 1971 911. 

Alan Merklin posted:

Having made countless many visits to the DMV dealing with replicas etc. in NJ, PA and WV hers's my pitch that almost always works :   Do your homework in advance and have all your documents and paperwork in order and neatly  filled out in advance when possible - Bring your own pen - Dress neatly, perhaps shave and pop in a mint - Enter the DMV with a smile and keep that smile going - When it's your turn maintain that God given smile speaking clearly simply say " I hope you can help me "  ….Usually you'll get some sort of somewhat minimal positive verbal acknowledgement in your favor - Don't ask questions or offer todays antidote... Just listen while still wearing that dynamic smile you walked in with. Hopefully the DMV Trade Winds will favor, your CC - Debit card will work and lastly,  be sure to say Thank You ~ ( There's always another DMV with another opinion of the DMV laws.

Yep...play dumb say please and thank you at DMV. Works every time. 

I agree 100% with Ed, and am terrified of what "recognition" portends. As I said, the NHTSA and EPA are not anybody's friend, and making ourselves a target is detrimental to my desire to simply be left alone to stimulate the economy in East Asia and Farmersville, CA.

I'm sympathetic to SEMA's desire to streamline and standardize the process of registering one's replica, but it's the nail that sticks up that gets hammered down. We are blessed in the People's Republic of Illinois to have a state government bereft of funds and willing to take money to license and title vehicles that are driven "sparingly" (to be gracious).

There's a Red Barchetta moment coming.

Sacto Mitch posted:

 I'm guessing it was an 'emergency' for the insurance industry.

Yeah, there was probably a rash of horrific accidents caused by marauding bands of dune buggies in TX. The ever vigilant insurance lobby needed to put a stop to that. 

In other news, you can save 15% or more by allowing Big Brother to monitor everything you do in your car by plugging a data logger into your OBD2 port. 

Thomas Jefferson feared it. George Orwell saw it coming.

Any trip to the DMV automatically puts me into "Hostage negotiation" mode. As Allan mentioned, be super nice, even complimentary. Having paperwork prepped and cause as minimal stress and fatigue to the clerk. Since Texas is one of our target move states, I am glad to hear the progress. Tennessee is the other, so I still have some research to do.

I agree with all of Alan's comments about the DMV.  In fact, that approach is good in dealing with pretty much anyone, but a simple "I think I'm doing my best, but I really need your help" goes a long way to making your trip worth it.

I have never been one to walk away from a perceived injustice, and I hear what Ed is saying about dealing with government.  At first I thought that he was off-base, but then I remembered all of the work that myself and the guys at Factory Five put into the so-called "SEMA Bill" in the Massachusetts Legislature to make registering Custom builds and Replica cars really easy, while providing guidelines to hobbyists and the DMV.  It was a beautifully written bill and was equitable to both us and the state while providing clear-cut guidelines for builders and the DMV to follow.  

Everyone loved it.  

Except for some yet un-discovered, un-named group lobbying the statehouse with an entirely re-written bill after us legitimate hobby lobbyists had gone home expecting a landslide vote in our favor.  

What we got was a landslide, alright.  In exactly the opposite direction than what we fought for.  We were all surprised and dismayed.  The DMV and the State Police saw their jobs get harder and less well defined, not to mention much added paperwork.  Us poor replica owners have to pay through the nose to get our cars on the road and you know what?  As far as I can determine from the state population at large (including the non-replica 356/550 crowd) - Nobody gives a Tinker's Dam about us or our replica cars except to wave and take photos of us on the road and to look at them at a show and let their kids put fingerprints and ice cream all over them.

I'm honestly torn between not doing anything at all this time (I mean, would it really matter?) or just send a short outline to the SEMA guy telling him about us, at least, and what this stuff will do to our little hobby.  Yes, we're only 5,000 cars strong, but how many Cobra roadster and coupe replicas are out there?  And '32 coupes, etc., on tube frames?  And Caterham Super 7 Lotus replicas?  Add up all the different replica numbers and it's a lot of cars/owners who have a stake in this.  We're all in the same boat when this mess hits but I wonder if we aircooled types might probably get ignored because THAT is what makes us a very small group.  

BTW:  My estimate for putting a 2020 smog-compliant Subaru in my existing Speedster and then get it registered via the Mass. crush/salvage title route (I would still have to do that per the state regs) is way over $15,000 including engine and installation and buying another car to crush.  If I owned a '69 VW Beetle it would cost me about $60 bucks.

For sure, nothing is gonna happen today - I'm gonna do happy stuff, watch the Clemson game and go for a long walk and think, instead. 

Note:  I just found out that given a smog-compliant 2019 or 2020 Subaru engine with all of the appropriate emissions stuff still there, I would not have to buy an older car to get it crushed for the crush title transfer, so I would save $4-$5 grand.  

The same would apply to any engine 2011 or later, as long as it has all the emissions stuff for that engine/year up to snuff.  Still leaves Type 1 aircooled engines out in left field, but it covers the Subaru versions.

Makes me wonder if getting a Type 1or Type 4 VW aircooled engine currently smog-compliant is possible?

YOu might be able to get the year of the engine it duplicate specs to be used. Just saying.

Nope.  They won't go for that.  They don't care what year the engine replicates.  It has to meet emissions testing for the year in which it was built, period.  

But, as noted elsewhere in this thread, what the rules say and what the DMV/State Police folks are willing to accept at any point in time for a given person may be two different things.  It's all in who you work with and how you present your case.  Be a prick and you'll get screwed.  Be humble, present a reasonable case and try to work with the DMV/State Police folks so everyone is happy and they can do a lot of rule-bending for you.

I think the explanation is, no matter what the law says it is how they apply it.