Nice looking setup.

Looks to be a Mazda Miata roll bar.  I had a car come in here for service MANY years ago with one of these bolted to fiberglass, so in that case I'd call it a holder for a wind deflector and not a roll bar.  I believe that Merklin has done some like this in his builds, so maybe he can shed more light on if it can be made to be safe in a speedster.

Carey nailed it, it's a Miata SHOW bar not a roll bar.

More like a towel bar.  That's about all it's good for in these cars.

This is a speedster roll bar:  mounted to solid steel supports behind the fibreglass.

It may be pretty, but with no head rest in a rear-collision, he is going to shatter the back of his skull.
-=theron

@Theron posted:

It may be pretty, but with no head rest in a rear-collision, he is going to shatter the back of his skull.
-=theron

I decided not to even open that can of worms, but I agree 100%.  Roll bars that close to the driver are meant for race cars where the driver is wearing a helmet.  You CAN make a roll bar/cage in a fashion where it is saf(er) for the street, but very difficult to do in a Speedster or Spyder.

Okay.  Theron and Carey:  are we talking here about the Miata show bar, or my roll bar (risk of smashing head on bar)?

I have a thick, padded covering on the lower cross bar for my head.  Obviously, it's not an SCCA approved roll cage, but I feel more confident having it for rollover protection, as opposed to just the windshield...

I'm talking about any roll bar in any street car.  Thick padding certainly helps curb the issue, and is similar to a headrest in some regard.  

You also have to weigh your "give and take".  Are you more likely to roll over or get rear ended?  Which event will cause more damage to you?  We know the windshield will fold in a roll over, so if you draw a true line from the top of the roll bar to the tops of the fenders is your roll bar truly at a height that will save your dome or is it a false sense of security?  I'm not saying that you haven't done this or that yours isn't made to protect you, just posing general questions...  at the end of the day you have to make yourself comfortable with your decisions for whatever reason.

Roll bar discussions can become similar to oil discussions, and I try to avoid both, other than state my opinion, supporting facts if available,  and then let someone make their own choice.

I'm with Carey on this one 100%.

A big metal roll bar close(or not even that close) to your head on the street is NOT safe.

If using a roll bar, it should be padded. And by padding, I don't mean pipe insulation. By padded, I mean SFI or FIA spec roll bar padding. And even with the padding, you need a 5 or 6 point harness to keep you in place, you'd be surprised how much you move in a crash even with a properly fitting harness. A lap belt is woefully inadequate, as Lane and I found out for real. A 3 or 4 point is better, but nothing keeps you planted like a 5 or 6 point.

You'd be amazed how tight the belts have to be for safety. I got in my Vee and tightened the straps, then an older, experienced racer tightened them more than you can imagine. They weren't too tight to drive, but I wasn't going anywhere at all. Now I know how tight they need to be.

Along with all of that, you need a high back seat and a substantial and padded headrest.

And you ALWAYS use a helmet with a roll bar. And no DOT motorcycle helmets either, you need an SA helmet, which today is either a SA2015 or SA2020.

Again, like Carey, I'm not looking for a war here. These are just facts of race car engineering and construction. Read the regulations yourself and you'll see.

Well, I'll take my roll bar for the protection it offers.  I know full well what happens in a roll over, and I'm not about to go there with this car.

It ain't a race car, and I'm not concerned about all the caveats that can be presented.

Realistically, these cars are death traps by modern standards, and a rear ender is going to shove a massive engine into the cockpit, so what's a head bump?

Carey scribbled: "Roll bar discussions can become similar to oil discussions, and I try to avoid both, other than state my opinion, supporting facts if available, and then let someone make their own choice."

Me, too.   There is no stock answer - Everyone's situation is different.

I have a "Decorative Roll Bar".  It looks cool, IMO.  

It's main function is to support the windbreaker window held inside it's frame and that's about it.  It is mounted pretty strongly behind the fiberglass with some additional bracing I welded in and our heads are protected by really beefy head rests (those are there because of a neck injury in the 1980's).    Would it pass Tech Inspection at a LeMons race? HELL NO!

Still, and all that said, I'm not kidding myself and fully realize that if this car were ever to roll over, both me and the roll bar are gonna be toast.  We just recently heard of a second person on here who had rolled his Speedster and he survived.  I am still amazed that he survived.  Bill, the roll-over victim on the West coast, a number of years ago, wasn't so lucky, nor do I think I might be (I've been using up my luck at a breakneck pace for the past 70 years so there can't be a whole lot left!).

The point is, everyone needs to recognize their car's limitations.  AFAIK, Cory Drake's Hoopty is the only replica Speedster I've seen (in the flesh) with a roll bar that might protect someone.  The front and rear clamshells might fly off in totally different directions, but that roll bar is gonna stay put.

Cory's -

@chines1 posted:

I'm talking about any roll bar in any street car.  Thick padding certainly helps curb the issue, and is similar to a headrest in some regard.  

You also have to weigh your "give and take".  Are you more likely to roll over or get rear ended?  Which event will cause more damage to you?  We know the windshield will fold in a roll over, so if you draw a true line from the top of the roll bar to the tops of the fenders is your roll bar truly at a height that will save your dome or is it a false sense of security?  I'm not saying that you haven't done this or that yours isn't made to protect you, just posing general questions...  at the end of the day you have to make yourself comfortable with your decisions for whatever reason.

Roll bar discussions can become similar to oil discussions, and I try to avoid both, other than state my opinion, supporting facts if available,  and then let someone make their own choice.

I can't love this enough. Read the highlighted portion (both sections). Then read it again.

Also, the part about the getting rear-ended really resonates. Please keep in mind that the bumpers are plastic (if they're there at all), the steering column in most cars was designed by Vlad the Impaler (your crush cage is cute. It might save you if neither the beam nor your chest doesn't move more than the depth of the cage), and that the doors are hollow. Period correct speedster seats have no headrest. The "period" in question assumed sports (and race) car drivers had a death-wish. It was actually a healthier attitude than what we've got going here.

It's time for somebody to clearly say it in this thread, "no matter what you tell yourself, these cars aren't safe".

I almost never disagree with @DannyP, and seldom with @Bob: IM S6 - but I _(sorta) do here _{(OK, maybe not)}. A 4, 5, or 45 point harness is OK, I guess - but it doesn't really make you very much more safe than a roll bar. Both offer some illusion of safety. Almost any safety doo-dad on these cars is a bit like slapping a safety sticker on a human cannon, and calling it OSHA approved.

If the goal is to not bonk your head on the steering wheel or dash, in the event of hard hit on the front, some sort of shoulder belt (any sort, really) will help. But being locked in position does nothing to stop your unsupported head from snapping off your tightly fixed shoulders in the event of a rear-end collision, or to save you if you're T-boned. You'd need a bucket seat with a real headrest (I've got fake ones), and some x-bracing across the doors to do anything about those.

IMHO, a racing harness with a low-back Speedster seat is not a whole lot _{(OK, "any")} safer than the simple lap/shoulder belt combo in every car since about 1970. They do lock you upright, so if the car rolls, you're dead for sure, rather than just "probably". With a lap belt, you might roll to the side and escape having your head ground down by terra firma... but probably not.

The point is not to belabor the particulars of relative safety. These cars are only marginally more safe than a motorcycle (only we don't wear helmets while driving them, which makes them about the same), whether there's a roll-bar, racing harness, or nothing at all. It's like debating if it's more safe to swallow one lit M80 rather than two.

Why sure it is. In context, I guess. Sorta'.

To enjoy this hobby with clear-eyed honesty, you have to make peace with the danger of really living. Full stop. Period. Most people can't manage risk to their personal safety, so they take ineffectual half-steps and tell themselves they're good. Don't be that guy.

The risk right here is out in the open. Don't kid yourself that some belts or bars mitigates it very much at all.

If you want to eliminate (or even significantly mitigate) the risk inherent in these cars, there's only one way to get it done. Sell your car.

I haven't thought about M80s for a long time.

"If you want to eliminate (or even significantly mitigate) the risk inherent in these cars, there's only one way to get it done. Sell your car."

Hmmm...for a number of reasons, Stan, I have been thinking long and hard about doing that.  I'm not sure yet, but I've had seven good summers with it; had the experience of working closely with Henry on the build; and enjoyed being the owner of one of the more unique Intermeccanicas made.

But, time moves on, and so must we someday do the same.

@Bob: IM S6 posted:

But, time moves on, and so must we someday do the same.

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "moving on", Bob. If you mean that one day we all shuffle off the mortal coil, then yeah - we will all "move on". If you mean that inevitably, everybody will eventually tire of this and move on from these cars... I guess I'm the odd man out, but I beg to differ. We don't ALL move on.

Everybody does what they think is best at the time they do it. You've got to do what you think is best, but I've rearranged significant portions of my life to satisfy my desire to stay in this hobby. It still lights me up.

Last time I checked, the reaper was still batting 1.000. He's coming for all of us. That includes me, whether I drive my car like a juvenile delinquent or not at all.

Nobody gets to choose how they go, but I'd prefer not to hide and wait. I'd much rather ride out and meet my fate doing what I love. Driving this car makes me feel happy and alive.

I suppose I'll keep doing it.

@Stan Galat posted:

... Period correct speedster seats have no headrest. The "period" in question assumed sports (and race) car drivers had a death-wish. It was actually a healthier attitude than what we've got going here.

It's time for somebody to clearly say it in this thread, "no matter what you tell yourself, these cars aren't safe".

... Almost any safety doo-dad on these cars is a bit like slapping a safety sticker on a human cannon, and calling it OSHA approved.

...

These cars are only marginally more safe than a motorcycle (only we don't wear helmets while driving them, which makes them about the same), whether there's a roll-bar, racing harness, or nothing at all. It's like debating if it's more safe to swallow one lit M80 rather than two.

To enjoy this hobby with clear-eyed honesty, you have to make peace with the danger of really living. ....The risk right here is out in the open. Don't kid yourself that some belts or bars mitigates it very much at all.

....

...

Nobody gets to choose how they go, but I'd prefer not to hide and wait. I'd much rather ride out and meet my fate doing what I love. Driving this car makes me feel happy and alive.

I second all of this. And I do so as someone who has serious (well, serious as I can be) disagreements with Stan on the subjects of risk assessment and risk mitigation.

Driving these cars is unsafe. This is so whether in modern traffic or on a race track. (And, yeah, Danny is absolutely right that, fixed with the hard bits required by SCCA or NHRA, they're probably much safer on the track). The latent danger is part of the thrill. We're getting away with something here. Something very special and ever more precious. On some visceral level, every one of us knows this.

Don't we?

So as long as your gut feeling is more holy crap this is awesome! and less holy crap I'm about to die die die die!  you're going to remain in light.

@edsnova posted:

I second all of this. And I do so as someone who has serious (well, serious as I can be) disagreements with Stan on the subjects of risk assessment and risk mitigation.

I'm grateful for that, Ed. I'm glad that even at this, our most chafing rub-point, these cars can help us find some common ground. There's more that unites us than divides us. We're all more than a little bit nuts.

Merry Christmas, gentlemen.

I like being the weird or odd neighbor. Yes, these cars are absolutely unsafe.

But, and not more than a couple guys can say that here, I survived a possibly horrific outcome wearing a lap belt. I am 95% sure I would have walked away with NOTHING but shock had I been wearing a 5-6 point harness.

When I cut my frame apart, no tube was "sprung". This means that the tubes didn't move when cut through, which says to me that at a 60 mph impact with a guardrail, the frame DID NOT deform. I punched TWO vertical stanchions out of the ground that were "holding" the guardrail. I'd say my impact was pretty substantial.

A Spyder is a different beast than a Speedster. I have a headrest, and 5 points tied into the very substantial frame. Most Speedsters don't have either of those things. I'm sure I would have walked away IN THIS ONE INSTANCE. And that's not a small point, each collision is a live and unpredictable entity. It's like fire. You've no idea how it will spread, just that it will.

I'm playing the odds. The odds of a rollover are pretty low in a low-slung car. So, I'm as prepared as I can be for the most likely outcome of a collision. I've made my choices and am very comfortable with them. I'm doing me.

And y'all that went to North Carolina know me: "Drive fast, take chances". Yep.

Merry Christmas, my crazy brothers.

It’s about as safe as a bike.

.

@Cartod posted:

.

It’s about as safe as a bike.

For me, that is the large, hairy ape in the room with these cars.

It's one of the reasons I like driving them and what you must face and thoroughly understand before firing one up, if you're being honest with yourself.

Danny may be right about the frame of a Spyder offering somewhat more protection, but I know that the energy and momentum equations for me and for the guy on a Yamaha R3 would work out about the same to within experimental error. Momentum would be conserved, and I would not.

I think the Speedster is just a bit 'safer' than a bike because four wheels are more likely to keep you upright than two when the road surface turns suddenly bad. You're more likely to slide than fall, less likely to end up under the F-250 in the oncoming lane. You usually have a skosh more chance to save a bad situation than the motorcycle dude.

But once things start colliding, the difference in outcome is more subtly nuanced.

I do know that since driving the Speedy, I drive more like I am on a bike. I just assume NO ONE can see me. That EVERY car waiting at a crossroad WILL pull out just in front of me. And I work out little scenarios in my head for which tree looks like the most comfortable to impact.

And oh, if you drive a Speedster, whatever you do, don't watch any of the compilations that are now common on YouTube of dashcam videos of real car crashes.

Just don't.

.

@edsnova posted:

So as long as your gut feeling is more holy crap this is awesome! and less holy crap I'm about to die die die die! you're going to remain in light.

There's a fine line between these two gut level feelings and I'm not sure I'm the man to parse the difference. They can bleed together, then settle apart several times in one drive.

I have two thoughts. The first is remembering heading out of the house in the dead of winter with a lot of snow on the ground. My father said, "Be careful out there it's greasy."  I replied, "Dad, snow tires, front wheel drive, ice racing experience, I'll be fine!"  His retort stuck with me, "It's not your skills I'm worried about."

Our assessment of how much control we have in a given situation may not be accurate. I don't think that we are ever completely accurate, else we might be paralized and unable to leave the house.

Then there's this; I'm taking a few minutes break from writing my little sister's eulogy. She was the sort of person that planned ahead, waaay ahead. All was set up for her to retire early at 60, and then do all the things she'd been planning for while working 60 hour weeks over 35 years. She was diagnosed with inoperable stage 4 apendiceal cancer 2 weeks after she retired. She never got to do any of it.

So the second thought is that we don't want to postpone joy, either.  Find a balance with which you and your loved ones can live.  Then live the **** out of it.

John Lennon could toggle between brilliance and idiocy. I think he was walking on the bright side of the street when he said, "Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans."

@Sacto Mitch posted:

.I just assume NO ONE can see me. That EVERY car waiting at a crossroad WILL pull out just in front of me.

This community has helped me understand quite a bit about our cars, and the joy and occasional pain that is part of the agreement we willingly enter.

Mitch’s comment above has been expressed before by several of you.  While I consider myself a safe and attentive driver no matter the vehicle I’m commanding, I do take extra precaution when driving my speedster.  For that I thank you all.

Just two weeks ago during a cool but dry weather cruise, I was at a stop light, with one car ahead of me.  The cross street was a two lane road heavily traveled, I was on a single lane road.   I make it a point when entering an intersection to look for cross traffic even when I have the clear right of way.  I certainly do this when I’m the first car about to enter an intersection when the light changes.  Being in my speedster, I did so even though I was car number two.  It’s a good thing I did.  A work van was approaching quite quickly to my left.  The car in front of my proceeded, the driver of the van who was clearly intending to run the light stomped his brakes causing all four wheels to lock (no ABS).  The van skidded through the intersection just behind the car ahead of me - which is about where my car would have been had I not paid attention.

If I may borrow another quote from my friend from further north - stay safe out there!

That is a Miata Show (s-h-o-w) Bar and has zero structural integrity.                            Note that the hoops are not centered to the seats, I would cut the bar at center , remove 3" and inner sleeve it and make brackets that attached to the FG tub wall...... again Show Bar & for looks only. It's thin wall stainless tubing and the welds IMHO are not of structural quality.

What scares me is looking in rear view mirror to see a new model bigger than last year's pickup truck!  Heck the oil drain plug is level with a small car driver's eyes! From ground to hood you are looking at a flat mostly steel wall 55" tall!  That's darn need 5 feet! Strange in Europe they have pedestrian safety required of cars.  Even the lowly Miata (MX-5 to them), have exploding hood hinges to prevent serious pedestrian injury.  Guess don't have that may live pedestrians left here?

@Stan Galat posted:

Been there done that.

@Robert M posted:

Been there done that.

Several times, actually.

... and always with a linked picture of the biggest, factory lifted, Raptor/TSX-style off-road bad-boy out there.

@WOLFGANG posted:

What scares me is looking in rear view mirror to see a new model bigger than last year's pickup truck!  Heck the oil drain plug is level with a small car driver's eyes! From ground to hood you are looking at a flat mostly steel wall 55" tall!  That's darn need 5 feet! Strange in Europe they have pedestrian safety required of cars.  Even the lowly Miata (MX-5 to them), have exploding hood hinges to prevent serious pedestrian injury.  Guess don't have that may live pedestrians left here?

Yeah, we've done this before ad infinitum. Do we really need to do it again?

We have 80,000 pound 18 wheelers on the interstates. Does it really matter if one of the big Three trucks is tall and square?

Greg( @WOLFGANG) is your Speedster close to being finished? Are you holding on until the 12th of never? Will your wife bury you in it?

These are all better questions than "Why are the new pickups so scary?"

@DannyP posted:

These are all better questions than "Why are the new pickups so scary?"

Although it is annoying when the really tall and wide ones pass you without bothering to change lanes...

@Michael Pickett posted:

Although it is annoying when the really tall and wide ones pass you without bothering to change lanes...

Ha! Thanks for bringing levity to an overworked and exhausted topic.

Next up: Covid and BEVs.

I was wondering what motor oil you guys recommended.

@Lane Anderson posted:

I was wondering what motor oil you guys recommended.

That's over in Gordon's Christmas wish post.

Like I always say:

"Not race belt, nor roll bar, nor mad skill nor luck;

nothing saves you from a bad monster truck."

@Lane Anderson posted:

I was wondering what motor oil you guys recommended.

If you're snooty, Avocado oil seems to be the way to fly.

I'm told it's got a higher smoke-point than olive oil for a crispier fry. Further, apparently I'm a undiscerning Neanderthal for not really worrying too much if it's avocado, olive, or "vegetable" from the big 5-gallon drum the restaurant supply folks bring. All I know is this stuff is about 20 bucks a half-gallon in the Kirkland brand down at Costco, so it's got to be better, right?

There's a big difference in LDLs or some such, but all I'm looking for is my fried Twinkies to be extra crispy.

Anything beyond that is for folks like Marty.

Your mileage may vary.

WARNING: THREAD DRIFT>>>>>>>

I'm not snooty, but I do enjoy a perfect Filet Mignon. I'll counter your avocado in favor of grapeseed oil, Stan.

First go to your butcher and get some cut fresh, about 2" thick. Let them sit on the counter at least 30 minutes. Put your oven at 425 F for the finish. Pat them dry with paper towels. Salt and pepper. Put some grapeseed oil in a cast iron pan(a must) and heat. Put the steaks in once the oil starts smoking slightly.

Don't touch them for 3 minutes, let them crust up real nice. Flip them ONCE and leave them there another 3 minutes. Remove from heat. Take some FRESH Rosemary and place a sprig on each steak. Add some minced fresh garlic and butter to the pan.

Put the cast iron pan directly into the oven for 7 minutes. Every minute or two, baste with the butter/garlic. Take them out, let them rest about 5 or 10 minutes and enjoy.

We usually enjoy these with baked potato and fresh steamed broccoli. Simple I know, but sublime.

Be warned, after doing them this way, you'll be ruined for any other steak done any other way.

@Stan Galat You lost me on that one? Olive oil is for salads not frying.

veggie oil^

Olive oil^

Yeah, Marty. I don't eat fried Twinkies either. Once we landed on killer F150s, I stopped caring about this thread.