No GEARS - poof! it's gone...

I'm looking for some help/advice from the mechanically inclined!

Last Monday as I was heading to the airport to pickup my mother (she was being introduced to her first grandchild) I made a slow 45 degree turn and was headed downhill on second gear. As far as I can recall, I neither felt nor heard anything unusual at the moment. But, I knew something was wrong as I pressed on the accelerator and got no feedback. I tried shifting to third with the same result.

Luck would have it that I was able to coast downhill to the light. A kind motorist offered help to push the car across the road into a secured parking lot.

After parking the car, I started her up and tried to get her into gear. Any gear at this point! 1st, 2nd...reverse nada! I couldn't hear or feel gears grinding. The car is fairly new with approximately 1700 km, about 700 from me.

At the moment, I was too concerned about my mother waiting patiently at the airport. Second, my poor wife who now had to worry about picking us up as well as the new baby.

With little to no knowledge about (leave as is), (leave as is) drivetrains, what could have happened? What should I be looking for?, besides a (leave as is), (leave as is) mechanic. I'm fairly mechanical if given directions. I'm just out of time and have had little to no sleep at this point - but I can change a diaper with my eyes closed!

Help - M

Is your car IRS or swingaxle tranny? I remember something like that happening on an old Karmann Ghia I had. Turned out that some of the screws were loose and/or broken (can't exactly recall) on one of the CV joints close to the transmission. It was just a matter of replacing some of the screws but it was enough to leave me stranded.

did your resistance change in your clutch petal?
also one very simple (hope you have this one) that i've seen in the past. the person
who installed your rear brake drums either installed them worn or loose and know they
won't grab the axle. thats the way the power is transfered to the wheel, axle splines to
drum. hope your troubles turn out simmple.

did your resistance change in your clutch petal?
also one very simple (hope you have this one) that i've seen in the past. the person
who installed your rear brake drums either installed them worn or loose and know they
won't grab the axle. thats the way the power is transfered to the wheel, axle splines to
drum. hope your troubles turn out simmple.

emergency brake on. have a brave volunteer look at you axles to see if they are rotating.
if so look at your axle nuts. by looking at the axles you'll know if your trouble is inside or outside the trans.

I bet the splines are stripped on your rear brake drums (only takes one). If they are not tighted to proper torque this happens -- 250-300 ft/lbs.

I'm confused - Mel was talking about not being able to find a gear and the replies are all to do with the rear brake drums.

Am I missing something about the drivetrain and it's peculiarities?

I would have thought the first place to look in any issue with gear selection would be the connection between the shifter to the shift rod followed by the shift rod to the nose cone of the transmission. If the bolt that secures the coupling sheared, that could lead to gerars not being found - wouldn't it?

Confused of Michigan...

Sorry - just reread the post - it appears that he was in gear when this happened. I must have skipped over that bit and read the comments about not hearing the transmission gears turning when trying to find any gear.

I guess now I'm even more confused...

Jim:

If one of the rear brake drums were not tightened properly and allowed to loosen enough, the drum could ride out on the axle splines enough to potentially chew some of the end splines away, allowing the axle to spin within the drum. All it takes is one drum to be loose, as the differential will just let it spin.

That's why someone mentioned putting it in gear and having someone watch the axle nuts to see if either one is spinning.

gn

Thanks for all the diagnosis gentlemen! I just wanted to add some additional information if it may help.

The car is on a 67 pan with swing axle. The builder/previous owner installed disc brakes all the way around. I don't remember what manufacturer, but moog comes to mind! I also noticed a little bit of axle grease seeping from the right side wheel assembly after long drives. The emergency brake pulls up only about 2 inches from rest and didn't stop the car as fast as I would have wanted.

I'll put the car up on jacks this weekend to have a better look. In the meantime, I'll scan thru the John Muir book during lunch for more details.

Thanks All - Mel

I certainly appreciate all the help from this site and its members. A peace of mind for my wife as she would call it!

THe clutch could have given up or blew apart, no clutch, no wheel movement. Also would not necessarily make a noise when it let go.

mel, don't jack it yet. ck axles on ground 1st.

also, emergency brake performance/handle pressure (during an emergency) isn't
like the ol drum brakes. it's easier to lock up drums.

Mel, the first thing I would do is see if the car will go into gear without the engine running. If it will but will not with the engine running then I would be looking at the clutch or clutch linkage. If the engine on or off makes no difference with your problem I would be with Jim Webby in looking at your shifting linkage. The reason I say this is that broken axles or splines or brakes would have no effect on getting into gear.

Could the shift rod coupler simply have come loose? This would allow the lever to move smoothly without the tranny actually doing anything. No grinding, no resistance, nothing......

I am having a similar problem. After 30-40 minutes of driving the shifting becomes nearly impossible. Great resistance is felt at the lever and it grinds into reverse. With the engine off eveything seems fine. You can adjust the lever and all is wel until it gets warmed up again then no shifting. Replaced the bushing and coupling, adjusted the clutch cable, etc... and all is smooth again for another 30 minutes of driving then no more shifting. Got to e in the throwout bearing or clutch bushing. I uspect when the grease heats up and disperses the bearing/bushing starts dragging.

Tony

mike, he was in gear (i think) when it happened. this takes the clutch out of the picture.

then we can only assume that it's shift linkage because now he can't get it into gear. But just when I think I know it all.....

Re-read his post: He was executing a gentle, 45 degree turn and then, Poof! - nothing happened. I still vote for the loose rear brake drum (easily checked without pulling any inspection plates) and then the shift coupler if the drums are OK.

Wouldn't the wheels fall off before the brake drum shifted outboard?

I would have thought grabbing hold of the top of the wheel and giving it a good pull would indicate whether the brake drum was loose on the nut. Also, just checking to see if the cotter pin is still in the castellated nut (assuming it was there in the first place of course).

My money is still on the shifter coupler...

I'm eagerly awaiting the outcome of this mystery.

Jim.

The axle is splined most of the outboard end except the last 1" where the castle nut threads on ...I can't imagine the drum splines shearing without one hell of a racket.
Shift coupler is my first look see and but that would be an obvious floppy shifter with a lot of serious play. Says he was in gear ina turn ...wonder if this happened during a shift change hence pulling the coupler loose ?. My .02 is on the up/down shift.

Naaaah.....the drum can move a loooooong way out before you would even feel it. Usually I've seen them slide about 80% out of the splines (the nut is still threaded on at that point) and then it just chews the heck out of the last 1/4" of splines and then the axle sits there and spins. looks pretty gruesome when you get it all apart, but I've often seen them just pushed back together, tightened up and off you go....

gn

But I'm beginning to bet on the shift coupler, maybe, too....

well mel?

I have had the very thing happen to me back in the day, the drum splines gradually are ground off and then no matter what gear you put it in--it just revs. My car (bug) would move under its own power but only at a snails pace.

How about a New Forum Catagory: Speedster CSI

A new mystery problem every week and possible solutions can be written in!

I'm liking the least costly and time consuming of the scenarios! Unfortunately the new baby has been taking up my time as soon as I get home. The answer to this mystery will have to wait until this weekend!

Mel

Mel:

The good news is the problem is almost certainly up stream or down stream from the gear box and thus, probably not too expensive.

The bad news is the Baby will grow up to be a teenager!

Bill

Finally some time away from the baby and my daily chores!

I took the rear wheel caps off to have a look. Started her up and let her idle for a minute.

Since I was alone at this, front wheel chucks and the emergency brake in place. I made sure it didn't suddenly jump in 1st gear.

As Bruce, Wolfgang, Gordon and Jim suspected! I could see the left rear Nut with Cotter Pin (in place) slowly turning. The right side was not moving. I turned the ignition off and got a good grip on the left rear tire. I gave it a good tug, and felt it give a little.

Now what? How bad of a fix would this be, assuming the worst! Could I simply get a large enough wrench or socket to tighten her up? Assuming that there are some gears left over. I've got a VW manual coming from amazon.com. Any additional suggestion while i'm waiting would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks - Mel

Mel:

Typically, (I know, that's a dangerous word around here) the drums only get chewed for the last 1/4" - 3/8" of an overall 1" or more of splines. Of course, that means that your drum had to have moved out 3/4" BEFORE it started chewing things up.

It's disturbing that you say the cotter pin is still in there - may be a harbinger of worse things to find, OR it could mean that whomever put it together didn't know what the hell he/she was doing.

If it were MY car, I would be pulling the drum off to see what the extent of damage is. Also check the condition of the brake shoes AND whether the axle seal is leaking. Then, if it doesn't look too bad, put it back together, and torque that big Castle nut to 217 ft. lbs.

Here's how on the cheap: I think it's a 36mm nut on there, so get a 36mm socket and an 18" - 24" "breaker bar" (looks like a tiny baseball bat with a knuckled socket drive on one end) AND a 3' long piece of 3/4" ID black steel pipe (Home Depot sells it by the foot - it's cheap).

Go weigh yourself (I'm not kidding here) and then figure out how far out on the breaker bar you must push to make 217 ft. lbs at the socket. For example, if you weigh 165, as I do, then stood at a spot 12" from the socket, you would apply 165 foot pounds, get it? If you stood 24" from the socket, you would apply 330 foot pounds. So, take your weight, divide by 12, and then divide that result into 217 to find how far away from the socket you must stand on the bar/pipe to apply 217 foot pounds to that big 'ol nut. Put a small piece of masking tape on the bar/pipe at that spot.

Ideally, the drum is on and tightened as much as possible, the wheel is off, and that corner of the car is on a jack stand. If you don't have a jack stand, then put the wheel on and get the nut as tight as you can BEFORE you put the wheel back on the ground. Tighten the lug nuts, and have a friend sit in the drivers seat and apply the brakes HARD.

Put the socket on that BIG castle nut on the axle end, then balance yourself, put your foot on the pipe at your tape mark, and then stand on that one foot. Don't bounce or nuthin, just stand there until it stops moving (you may have to re-set the socket a few times - let off the brakes while re-setting the socket position). Once it's tight, then find a spot to re-insert a new cotter pin. and bend it fast.

That's it, you're done, and your car is now MUCH safer than before.

gn

Gordon - I knew I could count on you for a detailed answer!

I will surely take the whole thing apart for a thorough repair. I've got the breaker bar covered, will buy a 36mm socket tomorrow.

Remember when I was test driving the car before the big purchase? I was trying to describe that odd feeling as a "wooble" It's clear now what was causing that feeling. If that drum was traveling out as much as 3/4", I could only imagine what's left of it! The seal had been leaking from day one, and should have been the first indication that something was bound to go.

Assuming that I will have to replace the worn part. I hope that I will not make the same installation mistake as the previous he or she. Silly question, but how will I know that I had replaced that part accordingly? Was it improperly installed because the nut was not tightened enough? or something else that I should be on the lookout for?

I'm sure that I will have a couple of weeks to mull this thing over. With winter about to set in, I'll have plenty of time to look and learn.

Many Thanks - Mel

Mel,

Does your car have front discs? I assume it does (as an '03 VS)- if so, I'd consider a set of rear discs. If you have to rebuild the drum brake wheel cylinder, you're going to need to open up the brake system and bleed it anyhow. 4 lug rear discs are not that expensive, and add a lot of stopping power. The best part is- they are stone simple to set up and adjust properly. If you have your e-brake set right- that's it, the rest is self adjusting. I'd look pretty hard at this option, before I rebuilt wheel cylinder, and replaced the drum. If the nut just needs tightening, that's one thing, but if parts need replaced, you'd never regret the rear discs. IMHO.

mel, "usually" its the "female" splines on the drum that get worn (softer metal). the reason
it happens is most people don't have the right equipment to tighten this at home.
so every time someone does their brakes etc. this nut is usually just "goodntight", its
not enough. glad your problem turned out to be of the more managable type.

Stan,

The car did come with 4 wheel disc. I will take your suggestion and take a good close look while i'm down there for the repair. The brake line was pinched by the wreckers chain and needs to be replaced and re-routed.

Bruce

I'm hoping that the damage is minimum, and would not be beyond my technical/mechanical ability. I want to make sure that I get all the metal shavings out for a clean re-install. I'm fairly confident following manuals, as long as the instructions are clear. I see that you are just across in NJ, maybe i'll see you in the spring.

Mel

Mel: (slipping into Rhode Islandese, here)

That nut has to be "Wicked Tight" or it'll let the drum/hub wobble. Since you've got 4-wheel disks, check to see if the rear hubs are wicked tight when the nut is tightened. Something else I've seen is for the hub to be a bit too short, such that when the nut is tightened all the way, it just bottoms out on the axle threads and the hub is still a bit loose. The cure for that is one or more thrust washers between the hub shoulder and the big castle nut. Easy fix, and wicked cheap, too.

Definitely put in a new axle seal - they're cheap and relatively easy to replace with the right tool. The right tool is a seal pry tool from Sears or NAPA - looks like a carpenter's hammer in profile, but it's only about 1/8" thick and allows you to hook onto the inside lip of a seal and pry that puppy right out - 10 seconds, tops.

That, plus making sure the hub is wicked tight (have I said too many times, now?) should make you right as rain.......

Gonna have to get a whole new vocabulary next week as we arrive in P'ot Roll, South Carolina. Close to the home of the Yamassee Shrimp Festival and the US Marines.

Gordon
One of the Nomadic "Speedstah Guys" from Rhode Island

Mel,

Most disc brake set-ups have a spacer about 1/2" thick between the hub and the nut. Does yours? If it's missing, that would account for the play you feel. Regardless, I'm having a hard time seeing how the rotor/hub could have come out enough to disengage the splines now that you say it's a disc brake set-up. The caliper itself would hold the rotor fairly stationary, and you really have to come out quite a way to get off of the splines. I hope I'm wrong, but it could be another problem.

The plot thickens...

Stan: Hope to have pics of my "Stan-influenced" top re-work later tonight.

gn

It's not a matter of the splines disengaging, they are actually sheared off.

Wow! that was almost 6 months ago when I posted this.

Finally got a few hours away from "Honey Do's" and baby do do's. I'm sure you've all been there!

Managed to get the rotor off the side in question. The rotor was covered with brake fluid on the inside face. The interior hole was devoid of anything resembling gear/splines. It was completely smooth. The drive shaft (excuse the wrong terminology) was completely intact - thank God.

I consulted with a local 4th gen. shop owner/mechanic that specialized in VW's. He asked if the brake kit was from South America or Brazilian made, of which I said yes. Knowing that there were really no other place that it could have come from. He said that the metal used for these new parts tend to be alot softer than the German steel.

So I could either go back to the old drum brakes, or try to find another manufacturer. The originals were from CB Performance. CB has the replacement parts for sure. I also spoke to techs at CIP1.com and they felt that the EMPI replacement rotor that they sell would be as good or better and a few dollars cheaper with free shipping.

I'm not as concerned about the cost, more about not having to do this again in the near future. Does anyone have any experience with either rear disc brake kits out there? Or thoughts on the CB or EMPI parts?

Thanks in advance - Mel

The spline shearing doesn't usually happen all at once. It begins by not having the axle nut tight enough, the slight "wiggle" gradually gets bigger and eventually wears down the hub-splines till they completely go away! I suspect that whoever converted your car to discs just didn't realize it wasn't tight enough on that side (I use a 6 foot cheater.) Sometimes it's necessary to add a spacer/washer, I think that Porsche and VW even had spacers available to use for this very problem.
You might want to check the other side before you order "replacement parts".

properly torqued it should be fine.

In my situation the replacement drum wasn't as wide as the original. It appeared to be "torqued properly" but actually the nut reached the end of the threads on the stub-axle before it snugged up to the drum. I used another thrust washer as a spacer-fixed the problem.