not letting it warm up does this???

Ok, it's been like -4 here a couple days etc.. now it warms up a bit to near 40 degrees. I get the car out and drive, and it keeps backfiring on me when I try to accelerate so i have to be really easy on it until it warms up (which takes a while.) So i get over the missing/backfiring or whatever loud popping its making when it gets warm. power loss was definately there with missing. Once it got warm however it was fine.

So last night I start it up, and the exhaust now sounds different, throatier and not in a good way, like ive got a cylinder not firing but instead just pumping air. It drives ok, still misses a bit but runs fine at higher rpms but crappy at low, so i really gotta rev it to shift etc. I drove it till warm and it still felt like 3 cylinders. No power, couldnt accelerate. Probably shouldnt have been driving it like this.

I check plugs, they are ok, all on. I started yanking each as it was idling. one at a time. there are two plugs i can yank that will kill the engine immediately. one doesnt do ANYTHING when i yank the wire, engine runs exactly the same (my dropped cyl???). Then the last one, the engine will run, but i start hearing a knocking noise after a few revs so i plugged it back in.

did i kill my engine here in the cold weather?

3600 miles. single solex carb. im told its a 1600cc but a reputable tech, but not absolutely sure because i didnt build it. Im also told everything on the car is new. Im guessing whoever built this car at least went through the engine then right?

First look for a spark going to all plugs. Just pulling the wire may not tell you everything.

The backfire may have blown out your mufler or headers.

This will cause the missing or poor performance and the new sound you hear.

Did you put a fuel saver in it before winter?

Check your plugs / wires cap and roter look over your exhust and all it's gaskets. Check your muffler seams and welds for black marks or damage.

I was thinking the muffler thing too... but I assumed that somehow it had been plugged up a bit from having only 3600 miles since 89.

I know there is spark on all plugs at the cap, because when pulling and replacing the wires spark would jump the gap when i was putting each back on..

Ill check the muffler out and let you guys know... whats a good jacking point at the rear of the car?

Have you checked the valve lash latety you might have a head stud stripping out making the head come lose DON"T pull a wrench on the head bolts hard, But just check them if you just one lose stud Put a over sized repair stud in it

If the head bolts inside the valve cover check out.

Then check for a over tight valve tappet, That would make one sputter or even pop when cold.

I hope not, because that is a good way to warp a valve.

it only started after i had the shop tune it up... but it was at the coldest 60 back then. and it never died comming up to a stop either before he tuned it... I cant get under this car to check stuff like that. I would have to have a shop do it, so i guess im gona just wait to drive it again until it really warms up. then ill take it in and probably have somebody tear down the engine and check it out. If its not cool. Im buying a new one.

backfiring that is.... it only started backfiring after the shop tuned it up.

Colder carb/inlet air temps change jetting severely... The colder the air the more it has a tendency to run rich. Sounds like you have started to foul plugs...

When its cold outside jet down a notch or run it hard!

Try changing the plugs first....its cheap and in this area a fowled plug will do exactly what your saying, it isnt worth trying to figure out which plug is bad after you drove it long enough to warm it up.....I once had this same thing happen and the plug looked ok and everything looked right on the spark, but after replacing the problem went away. The driving with the backfire may have caused additional damage as described above.

Yes, the plugs are now dead. Change them and then adjust the jetting for the more dense air. If not the plugs will foul again.

OK, Nic, let's recap: You said you think this is a relatively new 1,600 cc engine. That size sounds pretty stock. Does it have one carb or two? Does it have a Vacuum advance distributor or centrifugal advance? Does the distributor have points or is it an electronic ignition? We need those answers to better help.

You also said that your problem only started AFTER you had someone tune it up.

Along with the fouled plugs we all agree on, IF you have a vacuum advance distributor with points, I'm willing to bet that your tune-up mechanic either left the distributor vacuum advance hose off, (OR it fell off when you were out last) or your points (if you have them) have slipped out of adjustment, or the distributor wasn't tightened down fully and your timing has changed.

I'm with Steve and Jake.......plugs are cheap. Go get another set, gap them to spec and install them. When you do that, you should also have the distributor timing and dwell angle re-checked. That can be a slightly involved process if you're not into engine tune-ups, so you might want to have a good aircooled VW guy look at it and do it. Having the ignition timing off can make the exhaust note sound very different, and having the vacuum line disconnected can cause it to stall at or near idle and just generally run crummy. Having it tuned up at 60 degrees (outside temperature) and then running it at 30 degrees or so shouldn't make a lot of difference, other than taking 2 - 3 minutes to warm up and run smoothly.

Ignition Timing and dwell angle is crucial to having it run right, and is a mechanical adjustment that is easy to do and easy to check. Get that done so you (and we) know what you've got and it makes it easier to help you solve your problem ('cause it'll eliminate the ignition as a source of troubles).

Hope this helps.......Gordon

Hey Jake doesn

Uh, Jake, you got it backwards; when the air is colder and more dense the engine tends to run LEANER, not richer (heavier weight of air with same weight of fuel).

If you are using the stock style plug wires, You may have a cracked hard plastic cap on the wire. The wire may be arching at the plug. I suspect the problem is with 3 and 4 cylinders.
My car does the same thing when cold. I find that running a higher advance in the cold weather made the car run better. I wish I had the chokes on my dual solex carbs.

its a single solex, im told it has been converted to electronic ignition. ill go take pics now. then repost em. it wont be until saturday that i can tool with it.

what i meant about after the tune up may not come into play. i had the car shipped to me, drove it few times and it ran like a champ, except that when it got hot the brakes would rub constant because they were adjusted too tightly. My tech did a tune up.. only after he messed with it did it start to die at idle if the engine wasnt up to 170+ temps. after that it was fine really. He said something about something was leaking in the carb to make it run rich he thought and i could use a carb rebuild, but i told him id was thinking new engine already and efi. The car ran fine after the tune up after it was warm, its only been now that it is REALLY cold, and i drive it without letting it sit and get warm that it started missing badly... again, once warm, the missing would go away and it drove perfectly again, even in the really cold weather. it was only the other night that i started up the engine, it didnt idle right away and it missed terribly and the engine sound was different than when i shut it off previously.. so i guess its something with me driving it while cold that screwed up something, hopefully its as simple (and cheap!) as plugs. I might order efi this weekend.

also i was thinking dist out of time too, but cant check it. i still think its spark related. the plug wires have rubber boots, but i think they are "cut to fit" wires. the boots screw into the wires.

also, with efi, cold air = more dense = ecm telling injectors - more fuel. but it still runs near stoich. not too rich or lean. speed density is what i know better, im sure MAF is the same though.

with carbs? i think yes, lean is what jake meant. but i dont know carbs... to much mechanical crap to break. I like the idea of sepereate fuel injectors and a air valve/butterfly. no chokes, no jets, no floats, or springs or ajuster screws or secondaries or whatever....!

Use an ohmmeter and check each spark plug lead, the ends have a resistor in them that can burn open and cause missing.

here is a link to hear the engine. 2.8meg so it might take some of you a while. high speed. a minute.. i cant wipe the video, otherwise it would just have the audio and it would be much much smaller.

if somebody can do that please do and send me the mp3 of the audio you could get from this avi...

members.cox.net/snflupigus/sound.avi

for comparison sake, for engine exhaust sound....

members.cox.net/snflupigus/my356.wmv

That was jan 2nd, it was actually warmer and the car ran great, very very smooth...

now, with the audio.avi file, you can distinctly hear a difference, a phutphut sputter type noise as the engine SLOWLY spools up or revs.

its not a quick burst rev like it should be. but it did start right up tonight and settle to an idle, then it tried to idle down however lower and couldnt sustain without throttle blips.

I'm casting my vote with the group on this one.... replace the plugs AND plug wires, pull the carb and clean it up, blow it out, put on and adjust.. (*new gasket)

Also, I'm the sort that just replaces stuff when I'm fixing a glitch, even if I have the cause ID'd. VW parts just don't cost all that much. With that said, after the plugs and wires (get good parts), I'd replace the Distributor Cap, fuel filter, air cleaner, yada. If after doing this and adjusting the carb per everyone's advice.. and the carb seems to be causing problems I'd replace that carb, and buy a new .009 with Compufire and a new coil.... yeah... I know, overkill.. and half this stuff may not relate to your glitch (coil, electronic ignition), but in the long run you are much better off running with good reliable new bolt-ons.

Don't wait for Spring... all this is top side stuff. Also, buy a floor jack and stands, and change the oil;.... not going to fix your problem, but that's just another thing I would do. I guess I'm a little anal about this stuff. In the military, like on helicopters, they call it preventative maint. Fix your problem, then fix future problems..... Oh! Check your fuel hose and replace (if needed)... before you do, blow into it with the gas cap off, and make sure it's unobstructed. (listen for bubbles in the tank)

I hope it turns out to be wires, plugs, and carb adj. Let us know what you find out.

i havent gone more than 300 mile on the last oil change... :) and like i said, the car ran flawlessly until boom. one day sitting changes things...

Ill change plugs and wires.. and get back to you all...

if one of the good engine boys could do a listen to the audio.avi file, and tell me what that phtphtpht noise is, i would be interested. incase they hear something other than "spark plugs" bad. :)

thanks guys...

im gona get into autocad and start designing an adapter to throw crosfire throttle body injection units on this with dual intakes. :) i dont think i can handle this carb thing... just not my bag.

Carbs are the most simple things in the world. The tuner makes it harder on himself!

I have not touched mine in 42,000 miles on my daily driver- done NOTHING to them.

When EFI breaks- you know it, think this will drive you nuts, wiat till you try that!

I have a question , if its a single carb is their frost on the throttle body at the base of the carb when this is happening.

Barry,

Exactly what I thought. Frozen manifold. You say the problem goes away when heat builds up under the decklid?

Aaron

If he is running a paper filter He may want to make up a heat riser pipe. It wou't take much heat to set it right. I have seen oil bath filters converted to drypacks with the heat kit left intact. Not pretty like chrome, but they work great and look factory. a karman gia or early bus unit would look best. that way you get warm air to it straigkt from the cylinders, at startup

i dont know, it could be frost related, but i let it run the other day for about 15 minutes... i guess i could let it idle for about 15 and see if it would run better. my guess is no...

as for efi...
I have the eprom burner, software, ecm, harness, about 10 throttle boddies and 15 injector pods. just laying around. Computers and I get along a lot better than screwdrivers.

The only thing i would need would be a nice volumetric efficiency chart of a stock 1600. Maybe dyno graph. and rough idea of what one of these engines uses in terms of fuel (gph). O and dont forget adding the o2. With that i could get started on tunning an GM 8747 ecm on it.

anybody use any electromotive stuff on their engines?

Yeh, CRC makes an Aerosol degreaser for the auto industry call "Lectro motive". You know cleans and degreases engines......Is that what your talking aboot ? (An attempt to disguise myself as a canadian)

no. www.electromotive-inc.com/

I listened to the engine run and I feel that it may very well be a vac.leak.........But first confirm valve adjustment and timimg are within specs.

Check hose(s), base of carb, manifold boots and manifold to head areas.
Easy ...just spray some WD 40 onto these areas one at a time with the engine running, if the RPM's increase you have found the source.....Alan

Nic: I am fuel injecting my car this winter. I have most of the peripheral parts but haven

That is a great project. I am at a loss with some of the engine builders that give OBD injection a bum wrap. I remember how well the Tomleson fuel injection was praised when it first came out .

Are you basing you system on any paticular design? ,how many sencers do you plan for it will it be Ford. Gm ,or import based.

Right now Toyoda is one of the most trouble free systems.

Please tell me more. especaily if it all home built.

Bruce, if you can make something that is reproducable, I would be interested in building one up for my car. I'm guessing I'm not the only one either.

Sure, tell me now, when I just bought my new 44 Webers. Gee, with fuel injection I'd probably be able to pass Air Care....wouldn't that be nice.
Ron

Ron O: What's "air care"? Gum'nt enforced improved air quality for Canada or something? (I type this as I look out towards the Somerset, Massachusetts electrical power generation station spewing TONS of blue smoke out of their chimneys)

Barry: I am going to buy a fully programmable after market EFI brain. It is very difficult to pry something out of a production car and then reprogram it for a different application.

Sensors will include O2, throttle position, head temp, air temp and manifold pressure. I will get a setup with programmable ignition so it will have a crank trigger as well.

Ron: There are all ready kits of sorts. Most places will hold your hand and make sure you get all the right sensors and stuff when you buy their brain.

The basics of what you need are: the brain, the above sensors, fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, return fuel line, throttle bodies, injectors, fuel rail. You will have to do some plumbing and wiring. Depending on the ECU you buy the final setup/programming for the car will range from easy to as difficult as you want to make it.

I want to get my system up and running by the end of February so once it is done I might do a little write up and walk everyone through the process if there is interest.

You know, us old time Carb types just have to be a bit amazed at what you can do with EFI. It's always been a mystery to me - it either works or it don't - but I know enough of the basics of how a carb works to find my way through problems.

Still, I am amazed when Chris can sit in his EFI'd Eclipse at the track or dyno and re-program his EFI just with his Palm Pilot (!?!?!?!?!). Oh, and for really involved re-programming, he pulls out his laptop, sets the richness and timing curves he wants and downloads it (or something like that - I just get to watch from afar) and changes the character of the engine. He can even look back (with the laptop) over a past time interval to see what was happening while running......

I would be screwing with jets for a whole week for what he does in five minutes!!!

gn

thirdgen.org/techbb2/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=16

www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi.html

you'll all be interested in these two sites then... well especially the second.

the first one is my camaro's site. Im a moderator on the Throttle Body injection board.. TBI is getting older and older, but as one said... and, whereas not even 1 year ago could i tune it very easily, i can now sit with my laptop and have it act as the ecm (emulating) so that i can adjust settings on the fly, live, while driving if i wanted (not safe), datalog, and then save the settings as a binary file and burn it to the chip, or could convert to a flashprom and not have to worry about chip burning ever again..

Some are even reprogramming how the actual ecm works as well, rewriting to the source code of the ecm. thats WAY above my head right now, but i think i could handle the rest. It would just be a matter of getting my throttle bodies and sensors etc.. mounted.

Note: you dont need a return line for all efi. but its a good idea to save your injectors from particles that might get in the fuel lines.

anyway... gona go check plugs etc... ill get back to you guys.

I intend to use Nickie's in my next engine, most likely a t-1,
Fuel injecton would make it last even longer and would surly help with cold morning starts and a bunch of other climate related problems.
I just hope it will be as tough as the Toyoda camery setup on my moms car.
Its 15 yrs old and has never gave a moments trouble. Maybe I should hush tomorrow is another day

. But 15 yrs speaks well to me.

Nic!! Have you determined the problem as of yeat?
Of all the things covered which pointed you in the right direction. and helped you best.

As far as a comparative chart, you might want to ask the folks at CB Performace. they did the Tomlinson digtal injection, I sure they do know.

However they would most likely prefer to sell you one of their kits I forget how much. but I know its pricy.

Problem solved. Thanks guys. I got it idling a bit rough, but it was idling then i figured i would spray some carb cleaner around the base of the carb and other spots.. nothing. so i reached to the back right of the engine and yanked the plug wire off the plug. NO change in idle at all. i let it sit there idling for like 30 seconds til i killed it by goosing the throttle.

pulled the plug. black as night.

went to the store, got new wires and plugs. Put em all in and on. fire it up, barely ran. TONS of blue smoke. I held the throttle at about 2k for a minute and it was still rolling out the pipes. blue then blackish, another minute at 2k and reving it up a bit - still smoke, but disapearing. Idled for about 5 minutes and finally went away completely and WOW the engine idled all the way down to 800rpm smoothly. Drove it. HOT DAMN! like i'd never felt before. I like my new rocket. But it revs so damn quick i can barely keep up with shifting :). I took her out on the interstate and cruised. btw, its 32 here. 24 w/ windchill. No windows. :) engine stayed at 200deg, straight up on the temp dial. it never did that before on the interstate. It also had power enough to finally go over 65, and still pulled all the way up to 75. but ran out of gear :(. I need the 5 spd.

Im happy again.


EFI now, ... Their kits are near 1800. i could probably do it for under 300, and that would be including about 100 for the adapter plate or plates for the throttle body or bodies depending on what setup i would go with. I think that a single 1bbl gm tbi unit could be mounted the same as a 1bbl carb. my guess would be a single 50-60lb/hr injector would get the job done at 12-13psi. sensors wires etc.. are a dime a dozen from the junkyards. I have a bunch of it though. I think i would be able to use an ecm from a camaro, but the fuel mapping would be SO much different that it might make it impossible to try to tune. The bin (chip program for the carb boys) from a fiero might be somewhat close though. I would really like to convert to coilpack type ignition with a crank trigger setup too. What, a modern computer controlled aircooled engine? Yes, thats what I want.

Wonerful or Wunderval, as I think they say in Germany.

PLease, Please, Please,
Show me how to make up a 1776 cc T-1 injection kit. Or just make me one up after you do your first one and get it debugged.
I have no problem useing a holley 2 barrel intake to fit a GM thottle body or what ever you suggest. I do know that a 92 GEO Tracker CPU wold be right for a 1600. My 96 Tracker is OBD2 and has already been in the shop 3 times and still is not right It has nearly turned me against EFI.
My brother just completed his OBD2 training updates for the state of NC requirements, on Inspection, And the only car out there not having serious CPU problems is Toyota. TIME TO TRADE UP. or in my case down to D replica. YEA BABY!!
If you have a better plan I am all ears,
If you could price it reasonabley, I'll take it