Odd clutch issue

I experienced another instance of The Strange and Wonderful World of Speedsterdom when driving my car this morning, so I was hoping that you brilliant folks could help a brutha out with some advice. The clutch pedal seems to be a little stiffer sometimes, and I've noticed that the pedal is often not returning all of the way when released. It seems as if the cable is binding somewhere. The odd bit is that the car is shifting fine and the clutch is not slipping noticeably.

Any ideas? It's to darn nice outside to let the car sit in the garage.

Gotta grease the Biden tube (folks in Delaware will tell thats how gub'ment works)

Whoops sorry wrong forum

Lane do a visual check at each end of the cable (Fraying)....and check the pedal where it attaches to the pivot/axel point.....The stamped steel pedals are known to have weld failures, but his is not a common problem.....Just a thought.

I've had a weld failure before, hence the current pedal cluster. Two in a row would suck.

How do you grease the bowden tube? I assume you get to it from under the driver's side rear wheel, right? What kind of grease, and how much? I kinda thought this would be a common suggestion. Of course I'll check the cable for fraying as well.

Check also for cable stretch.... if it's a tad loose it could feel like it's binding as well.

Hope your cross arm weld isn't failing as mine did. Mine failed in my driveway. If the previous suggestions don't cure your problem, you will need to somehow trouble shoot for the possibility. I suggest you go up your AAA membership to the Premium level to assure the long-distance flatbed trip if needed.

I would think that cable stretch and failing welds would make it harder to shift, which (so far) hasn't happened.

Lane is heavy into the "wishful thinking" department.

Hey Lane - remember high school? The best make-out always ocurred just BEFORE the guy with the flashlight tapped on the car window. I'm just saying check it out bro . . . .

Lane, Kelly and I both had cables modified by a guy at a WestMarine in Annapolis. He was in the sailboat cable business. Not a lick of trouble since then -- knock on wood.
The alternatives are endless, like using 10-speed bicycle brake cables and getting a cycle shop to crimp the ends. Either route will result in a better and more reliable cable than one cut down from stock.
I'm pretty sure Carey has his made to his specifications, but it's probably the same cable you got with the car, right? Why not replace it and not have to worry about it?
The cable itself isn't hard to remove from the tunnel, as you already know from removing the pedal assembly last time, and taking it out for inspection now is much better than having it fail on the road.
Just in case you maybe paid a guy last go-'round, you can TOTALLY do this yourself.
You're going to need to jack up your car enough to get under it; you want to be able to get under the left rear axle.
Take off that fancy Lempert wheel to give yourself some room to work, if you can, and maybe you could remove your driver's seat, if it's in the way.
You can grease the next one as you install it. Order a new one from Carey for now, and install it while removing the old one. Put some wheel-bearing grease on a shop rag, remove the old cable from the clutch fork, pass it through the nylon guide bushing and attach a good, strong piece of string to it.
Take out the pin that holds the accelerator pedal, remove the cable from it, then remove the bolts that hold the brake and clutch to the tunnel and disconnect the brake pedal from the master cylinder without monkeying with the clevis pin or the plunger.
Pull the clutch pedal forward so your cable doesn't come unhooked. And gently pull it out of the tunnel. Tie it off to something, so it doesn't slip back inside.
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Cover the carpet on the driver's side, and you'll probably want to cover the tunnel, too.
Get your 20-foot piece of string, and tie it to the end that's still sticking out the back of the tunnel. Once you're sure it's on there good, pull the cable out through the pedal-hole. And untie or cut the string. Re-tie it to the new cable, and then go get Pam.
Take your new cable, leaving it coiled, and put it on the driver's side floorboard. Get your greased shop rag out, and begin to grease it after the first six or so inches.
Put the first two fingers of whichever hand you need to -- probably your left, if you're on the driver's side -- into the hole and feel around for the cable tube. The string will guide you to the hole.
Ask Pam to gently pull on the other end of the string until your new cable is a few inches from being ready to hook onto the pedal. Let the cable play through the greased rag as it travels into the hole, then make sure to grease the loop, too.
Put the rag in a plastic bag when you're done.
This is the tricky part, if there is one. Once the pedal has captured the cable, you have to keep tension, or it'll come off the hook. Pam is going to have to pull enough to keep the pedal where it is long enough for you to put in the couple bolts that hold the pedals to the tunnel.
Put the brake pedal clevis back in just the way it was. Connect the stoppre for the gas pedal again, and put the pin through the pedal base.
Pam's done at this point. I would see about making sure you physically take the cable from her, don't just tell her to put it down, and then keep loose tension at the tunnel while you feed the threaded end through the guide and clutch fork.
If memory serves, Carey uses the wingnut-type cable ends. Get the wingnut on the threads until you have between a half- to three-quarters of an inch of play in the cable.
Put your interior back together, thank Mrs. Anderson, and you're all set.
Easy as pie.

I once had a problem in a '68 bug.....The clutch cable tube broke it's mounting bracket in the "tunnel" .....The pedal became harder to push (greater effort), and clutch action was all at the very bottom of the pedal movement....Clutch release and engagement, themselves seemed to be unaffected.....Just a thought....

Interim update: There is a tube that runs the full length of the cable travel, meaning that should be a relatively easy, one-man job. Unfortunately I can't get the threaded end of the cable to go into the tube as the fit appears to be too tight. Hmmm... Gotta be a trick to this.

Oh yeah, no sign of fraying, but the stirrup that hooks onto the pedal is almost worn through. It was only a matter of time until complete failure. Yup, think I'm gonna go hydraulic after Carlisle.

Yet another update: The trick was to remove the bowden tube - not an easy job in itself. The old cable still fought a bit, but the new one slid in like (insert sexual inference here) due to the use of liberal quantities of grease that were lacking on the original. I would have the car all back together by now except that I discovered the base of the pedal cluster had cracked on one side of the uprights holding the accelerator pedal on. Grrrr!!!! I'll try some smackumpucky first.

Must be 'Beck Clutch Cable Adjustment Day' as I am going through the process of tightening the wing nut for the first time. Man....that thing is not easy to reach. Finally got it!....a true victory....now the question is...did I overtighten it?

Will report more later.

JK

How involved is a hydraulic pedal assembly swap or install?

I get to post this every so often. Fought the cable thing just to find out it was the pedal...

Lane....forget the JB Weld......get it welded and reinforced......I'd hate to hear cries of distress from the road side this close to Carlisle...... ;-)

The JB Weld is for the hinge for the gas pedal, little stress and probably not weldable anyway. I may replace with a roller pedal and do away with the tall thingy anyway.

Marty: Don't know. I plan to ask Carey about it as he's told me that he's done several conversions and never had any problems. I won't do it for a while, anyway, as my budget is a little tight this year.

Lane--is the hydraulic clutch to make it easier to push in? If so, email Jake Raby---he uses a VW bus lever that is longer and gives more leverage.

I am using a Kennedy Stage I, 200mm and it's as easy to push as my old type I clutch was.

No. The switch to hydraulic would be to get rid of the troublesome cable. I can tell you that it's a PITA to replace, and from the wear on mine, as well as what I've seen on this thread, it's something that you will do every few years. Bleagh!

I've retrofitted several hydraulic clutch systems into Spyders and Speedsters. It's time consuming but well worth the effort.

If you go hydraulic, don't let them talk you into a 3/4" master cylinder. They're too difficult to push. Go with a 5/8" and you can push the pedal with your hand regardless of which pressure plate you're running. Use a CNC slave cylinder, (they're the best for a VW application)

Thanks, Larry. The biggest question I have is how to mount the master cylinder. I would assume that you'd have to go through the forward "firewall" and mount it near the brake master cylinder. Is that correct?

Yes.

Once you have your master cylinder, you can take some measurements and cut a hole in the forward bulkhead and mount the M/C by use of a 90 degree ball & socket joint or a rod end (heim joint) with a bolt through the hole, you can affix the mastercylinder's push rod to your clutch pedal

see: http://www.kartek.com/Product/Brakes/CNCCylinders.html

Given the poor quality of reproduction pedal assemblies, I wonder if going with a buggy type assembly with all three pdeals and both MCs might not be advisable. Might even be easier to install. My one concern with this approach is that I only found one with dual brake circuits. It had a separate MC for front and rear. Thoughts, anyone?

Lane, depends on how much money you want to spend. Personally, I installed a "Tilton" pedal assembly in my Spyder. I truly loved the system but, it was expensive. The up side is that it was a dual brake system and you adjust the bias to relieve some pressure on the rear brakes (you don't want them locking up first) Here's their web site with a photo of the pedals I used. You have to buy the pedals and master cylinders separatly.

Vintage Spyders installs a dunebuggy style brake/clutch/accelerator pedal assembly in their cars. There are several choices available including Jamar, Neal, CNC

here's a PDF catalog of "Tilton" pedal assemblies

http://tiltonracing.com/pdfs/TBandC_2009-web.pdf

Looks very nice. Whether I go that route depends on what "expensive" actually means. The feel and action of the controls is extremely important in how the car feels to drive, so I'm willing to spend some money and effort to do get it right - to a point, of course.

Anyway, I'm not going to take on a project like that until after Carlisle. It'd be just my luck to have a major failure on the way out of town, again :-O.

Thats some serious looking hardware. Very nice.

HOLY FRIJOLES!!!! More than $450 for that pedal assembly! When I get around to doing this, I may have to find a less pricey route. Sure does look nice, tho', and it's the only one I've seen that has everything.

Ok, it's done. I haven't done a test drive yet, but the pedal feels fine.

You know, the cost of that Tilton pedal cluster doesn't look so bad at the moment. I will state for the record that I NEVER WANT TO DO THAT AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!! How many more Deutchmarks would it have cost to make the pedal/cable connection something that wouldn't slip off? How many would it have taken to make the throttle cable more positively locked into the accelerator? Good Lord that's lousy engineering!

Back in '36, lots of cars had cable-operated systems.
You'd have probably been the owner, operator, driver and mechanic, too. At least the mechanism wasn't complicated!

You might want to check out the German Auto/Saco 32-1001 hydraulic clutch kit($250)at http://www.sacoperformance.com/products.php?cat=45 . You don't have to cut a hole in the 1/2" steel arch and the m/c reservoir mounts in the luggage compartment. The m/c mounts inside the tunnel with the hose to the slave cylinder going out the aft end of the tunnel like the cable. You will have to cut a hole in the tunnel to mount the m/c. This was not a quick install (for me), but I did not want to chop a hole in that steel arch on the CMC frame.

Cory - I don't hate the cable idea itself, just the fact that there is nothing holding it on but tension. I couldn't get the rubber band thing to work this time, for whatever reason, so I did have to pull in a neighbor to help. I've also had the throttle cable come out of the accelerator on the expressway, hence my remark about that little bit of engineering mastery. It wouldn't have taken much to design a more trustworthy attachment for either system. Grrr!!!

John - Looks like a nice system, but on the Beck it might just be easier to go forward through the bulkhead than into the tunnel. That little project is (I hope) down the road a bit.

Lane,

forget cable drive, how about my '51 Hillman Minx Vert. It had a chain linkage for the gear shift. To adjust the shifter move up or down a link.
My first car and I even had the manual. Costs $75.00. My second car was an MGA. Now there was some engineering.

Yeah, plywood floor and all ;-)

CNC makes a retro fit hydro clutch kit that has an angle bracket that welds to the stock pedals and the master mounts through the front "firewall". Also includes the clutch save cylinder too. Use that, a hydro line kit, and a slave saver bracket and you're good to go. Install time for my guys is about 4 hours, including removal, welding and painting of pedal assembly...

I don;t believe CNC sells anything but wholesale, but places like McKenzie's and CB will carry everything. The kit is available in 5/8" and 3/4" bore master. The 3/4" bore will build your leg muscle... :)
Also, how high you mount the angle bracket will determine the amount of leverage you have and make the pedal easier/harder to push... I'd guesstimate $300 in parts if memory serves.

Gracias! Any idea on what height the guys normally mount the MC at?

7' 3"

;>)

PLBPLBPLBPLB!!!!! (sound of raspberry)

Carey and Lane, John Wiley posted this above and one of my friends used this kit and indicated that "everything" is there, it was easy to mount and highly recommends it

http://www.sacoperformance.com/proddetail.php?prod=32-1001&cat=45