Odd clutch issue

Thanks, Larry. I've seen that and wondered if the MC could be made to fit. Obviously the plate on the bottom wouldn't work. Does the MC pushrod just connect to a hole drilled in the clutch pedal arm, or is some welding involved as Carey describes? Carey, I can't find the CNC kit you mention. Got a link?

Oh yeah - Larry, can you get a picture of your friend's installation? Particularly where the pushrod connects to the pedal, and where the MC is mounted.

Drove the car a bunch today and all is well. I need to tighten The Big Wingnut another turn as the clutch engages a little too close to the floor, but that's easy. Clutch action is much smoother with newly greased cable. I still think that hydraulic will be the ultimate solution.

It looks to me like the master cylinder goes inside the tunnel and the end of the shaft coming out of it attaches to the existing clutch cable hook.

Oh yeah, that's right. I knew I'd seen that one before. I really don't want to cut into my tunnel, so I'll probably go in a different direction. Eagle eyes, Mike.

Shed any light?:
http://www.manxgallery.org/gallery/album243

No photo's of the SACO kit are available as there's nothing to see. The link to the Manx BB says it all.

Here's a photo of a Spyder with an aftermarket hydraulic clutch and stock pedals.

Note the ball joint attached to the end of the clutch master cylinder and how it's bolted to the existing clutch pedal.

You'll have to drill a hole in the bulkhead large enough for the push rod, then bolt the master cylinder to the wall.

Although the Saco unit is a clean install and hidden in the tunnel, I'd opt for the unit Larry shows, if just for the ease of access and maintenance.

~WB

Yeah, the Saco would be a problem as the Beck tunnel is much lower than the Beetle one, and it's a rectangular shape. Also, I would have to rip out the glued down carpet and cut into what is probably an important structural component. Not worth it.

On another note, when I got into the car to drive it this morning, the gas pedal stuck. It seems the base of the pedal cluster that holds the gas pedal is cracked, allowing the pedal to shift slightly and the back part of the molded plastic pedal to jam the roller. Again, a poor implementation of a poor design. The quality of aftermarket parts is abysmal. Not sure what my short term solution is as I really don't want to remove the pedals again. I wonder if a better quality aftermarket cluster would allow me to use the stock brake MC. Regardless, that's going to wait until I'm ready to go hydraulic on the clutch. I may just buy a roller gas pedal from Cip1 for now. They're only ~$10-$20. Still gotta pull the cluster out a bit, but maybe I can keep the clutch cable on. !#$%^&*!!!!!!!!

Larry, specifically which pedal ass'y did you use? Can you post a picture of the installation?

The pedal assembly used in the photo above is a stock VW unit modified (drill a hole) to accept a clutch master cylinder activation rod. The master cylinder has a 5/8" bore and is from CNC or a Neil, and is common to their pedal assembly. Look above for info. on CNC and Neil.

In my former spyder, I used a Tilton pedal assembly. Look above for information regarding the Tilton assembly

The 23rd post and the 25th post have information on the master cylinder and on the Tilton pedals

That Tilton is gorgeous, but I've seen prices of $450-$539 just for the pedal assembly without MCs. That's a little rich for what I'm doing, so I'll probable stick with a stock assembly. I just ordered a new one and a metal gas pedal instead of the plastic one. I will pre-drill the clutch MC hook-up hole in the pedal before I install it, even though I don't plan to do the hydraulic clutch until after Carlisle. I looked for less expensive pedal clusters with dual brake circuits, but I couldn't find any that looked like they'd fit.

Gonna be reeeeeeeeeal careful with the install this time, since the pedals assemblies seem to be kinda fragile. Not looking forward to wrestling with the clutch cable again. Bleagh!

Lane, another option is to buy this http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/TILTON-Floor-Mounted-Clutch-Pedal_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem2a063cd76eQQitemZ180493277038QQptZRaceQ5fCarQ5fParts

Then buy a 5/8" master cylinder and cut off your existing clutch pedal

Larry, I've seen those CNC pedals installed on sand rails around here (Chesapeake area). I haven't ever driven a car that had them installed.
How are they as far as four-season reliability?
I'm not looking to go jumping into another project anytime soon, but it probably would do me well to look around in the speed shops and see what comparable equipment has been on the shelves too long; maybe I can scare one up for a little less money and hang onto it for that 'rainy day.'

I've been using CNC & Neil pedals for years. My current sandrail has a set of CNC pedals and they've been flawless for the past 10 years. No problems!!!!!

Good to know. Thanks!

Cory, my car has the Neal brake/clutch(you DID drive mine) that has been awesome for 8 years. I have changed the fluids every two years though, it gets dark!

I just spoke to Carey who told me that I should be able to remove some of the flooring (or whatever you call it) material from under the car and actually have access to the whole length of the tunnel. I will investigate that as it would make the Saco system very simple to install. Hmmm...

Ok, I just verified that there is an access panel under there. I will need to cut out what looks like some fiberglass used to seal it and remove some bolts to get it out, but that should work fairly easily. That Saco unit is looking pretty good right about now.

I just spoke to the folks selling the Saco kit, and the only make the master cylinder with a 3/4" bore. Damn!!! Just how big a difference would I expect over a 5/8" bore?

I'm tempted to try it anyway. If it's too hard to press, I might be able to replace the MC later.

Calling John Wiley. John, what is you opinion on the pedel pressure needed?

Going from a 5/8 to 3/4" MC will require 44% more force but you will get 30% less pedal travel. Assuming you are not changing the slave cylinder size or pushrod mounting location (pedal ratio). But I can't say what size is "best".

Oh, if you are replacing the cable rather than just changing the master cylinder on an existing hydraulic system then it won't matter. If the master and slave cylinders are the same size (and in that SACO kit they should be) AND the master is attached to the same location on the pedal as the original cable, then you will feel no difference in either the force required or the pedal travel with the hydraulic system compared to the old cable.

From your question it sounded like you already had a hydraulic clutch, and I had forgotten that you were talking about it at the top of the thread.

Lane, the pedal force in no way seems excessive to me, and I'm older than dirt. I'm not sure what the definition of normal would be, but the actuation force for the Speedster is less than that required on my '66 Mustang. /john

He's replacing his current cable system possibly with the SACO.

On a straight push mastercylinder such as a modification to your existing pedal or a brand new set of pedals, a 5/8" master cylinder is much easier to push than a 3/4". Since the SACO is utilizing leverage generated by the pedal at the cable hook, you'll probably not experience any heavier pressure than what you currently have.

Sweet. That was the last question about how to make this work. Now to wear out the credit card.

Thanks guys!

Got the parts today (see pic) and they appear to be beautifully made. It's almost a shame to hide that slave cylinder positioning bracket (on the right in pic). Guess I'll put this in this weekend.












Ok Gordon, calm down. I'm just kidding ;-) Actually Ken and I plan to install it sometime this summer on a Saturday at his shop as sort of a tech session. A lot of the local ACVW crowd gathers their on Saturdays to BS and tinker.

Lane, that's why Spyders rule! You can see everything back there, but only when you open the hood!

Lane, I could bring a recip saw to Carlisle.
You'd be able to see the system by the end of the weekend.

Ummm... Let me think about it... NO!

Cory, I'll bring the torch and the portable band saw. Sounds like fun!

As Wayne and Garth might say:

SawZall! SawZall! Cuttin' time! Excellent!

Lane, did you ever get the Saco kit installed? You asked me a question and I gave you a so so relative non-committal answer relative to the force reduction I experienced when I installed mine. The reason had more to do with the lack of something to compare my clutch with than lack of interest. I bought the CMC kit in '88, the Metalcraft chassis in '90 and the Bernie Bergmann 2110 in '91. And then it sat untouched for many years. After retiring, I rehabbed the 100 year old farmhouse I live in here in MO, restored my mother's '76 Riviera I kept after she died, and then my one owner '59 Chevy. By 2006, I was at last able to get back to the Speedster and I never installed a cable actuated clutch. I had a great deal of difficulty getting the system bled properly, after a somewhat tedious installation process. In fact, so much that I asked Gordon to pick up some swage fittings from a New England nautical shop so I could make up a couple of cables. He encouraged to continue and pursue the hydraulics...which I did. I couldn't use the Saco supplied mounting plate or the actuation rod as you may note in the photos, just too much difference between the VW tunnel and the Metalcraft tunnel. The vacuum bleeder sucked...no pun intended. The pressure bleeder finally got the job done, but was really messy. TO BE CONTINUED.

Since it's very easy to get distracted on multiple projects on a farm, the Speedster has never had my full attention. With the exception of some minor trim, the CMC is now finished...after only 22 years. This CMC can really be called a "vintage" Speedster. Recently, I purchased another Speedster. This actually goes against my grain as a retired engineer and farmer (I'd much rather build it than drive it), but I don't have enough years left to build another "scratch" Speedster, and this former IM was too good of a deal to let pass. Alan knows this car well. Now I have the CMC to drive in MO during the summer and fall and the IM to drive in FL during the winter. Anyway, now to get to the point. As far as clutch effort is concerned, there is NO comparison between the Saco and the cable system. I have NOT quantitatively measured the clutch actuation force of either car, but the CMC with the Saco FEELS like it requires less than half the force that the IM with the cable requires. Since both cars have Bernie Bergmann engines and Bernie had a penchant for using 1700# Kennedy pressure plates, and I KNOW my CMC has a Kennedy, I am reasonably certain that the IM has one as well. If it doesn't, that would make the Saco system look even better. Another bit of info, I only get about 1/2"-5/8" stroke on the slave cylinder at the pressure plate actuator arm on the xmission, but the clutch release fine with no gear clash. Good luck. /john

Haven't installed it yet. It's only recently cooled off enough to undertake such a project, and now we're into the best driving weather of the year. I suspect it'll be a winter project.

Based on your description of the difficulty in bleeding it, I will make sure I "bench bleed" everything as much as possible before I install it. Installation on mine may be a bit easier that yours looks like it was. There is an access panel under the tunnel in a Beck that should make it reasonably easy to get the MC in there. "should", of course, is the key word there.

UPDATE: I have another thread in progress regarding some more recent clutch issues ("Yet another round of clutch questions"). The resolution (I hope) required that I go ahead and remove the access panel under the pedal cluster (nice idea, Carey!). The down side is that it appears that the SACO unit will not fit. The Beck tunnel does not go forward of the passenger compartment as it is not a structural piece, unlike on pan-based cars. I would have to find a way to cut a large hole through the steel bulkhead at the end of the tunnel so that the SACO MC could poke through there. Looks like more trouble than it's worth given my lack of tools and ability :-). Should I still feel the need to go hydraulic, I guess I'll do what Carey has on some cars he's delivered. Either that, or I'll spend a fortune and go with those gorgeous Tilton pedals (when I win the lottery).

Hey I can get you a good Vw Petal set for $30 bucks Im sure of it..

Do ya want it. I will even put in the extra grease fittingis Like I did to min e an paint it gloss black for ya.

If you still have my number? text me. Lane. Oh I left my cell phone in my tool box at work. Better just email me..

Yeah, that'd be good to have a spare, given my history. Thanks.

As Barry does, I always add a grease fitting to the pedal cross shaft. Makes operation SO much better over time.

gn

I have a set hanging in the shop I think?? If that's the case it's yours.

But my friend Conway has still got lots of old bug parts So if thats a YES I will get right on it. and have you a freshly restored petal assemebly including the gas petal before Monday. I will need a mailing address.

Gordon.. I also have Conway put zurks on the rear bearing housings on the rear swing axles and we are now going to start putting them on the front hubs as well. to extend wheel bearing life by being able to grease them on the car every 6,000 or so..

That's a yes. I'll email you my mailing address. You tell me what I owe.

I will include a return envelope. and the spirit lead ya. You guys put up with my alway being last inline.

Hey I just realized that Bug Stop Salvage is in South Carolina. That's Aubrey Watson's outfit. He is at, 624 Bair Road Orangburg SC 29115 PH # 803 534 4923. He has lot of cars down there.. Lane I forgot about that place. Sorry But I will make it easy on ya this time.

But next time you need a part you should try Aubrey.. he's closer Tell Him I still have the spare Automatic he sold me. and Im looking for a 69 ragged out bug Or any older Irs type car with title to build a spyder fastback on. It can be junk but must have a clear title and serial plates.. It will become a spyder.

Lane, if you're going to have a second set ready-made, why not have them sand-blasted or wire wheeled and throw some primer on 'em -- then some semi-gloss walnut or desert tan paint?
Try to match whatever color your carpet is bound with, or maybe the wood Lempert and you did up so nicely?
I think that would look MUCH better than chassis black.