Do any of you do anything to try to get oil out of the external cooler when changing oil?
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I never gave that a thought, Mike. How would you go about draining the cooling oil radiator? I think I'll just drain the engine and replace the filter.
"Do any of you do anything to try to get oil out of the external cooler when changing oil?"
Nope.
I don't even give it a second thought. Drain the sump and change the filter - that's it.
Gordon Nichols posted:"Do any of you do anything to try to get oil out of the external cooler when changing oil?"
Nope.
I don't even give it a second thought. Drain the sump and change the filter - that's it.
Just looking for input here. My new dry sump system takes about 10-12 litres of oil including the remote cooler. No mention was made by Henry on needing to drain the cooler during oil change but I'm wondering if having about double the oil capacity of many other cars, would that also infer double the mileage between oil changes ?
How many miles are you lads putting on your engines between oil changes ?
David,
I think the more relevant question is: what type of oil are others using? Dino oil, the traditional motor oil of our youth, is usually changed at about 3,000 miles, while the newer synthetics recommend changing at 7500 miles. Yep, 7500 miles. Most of our members don't drive 7500 miles/year.
I'm not trying to start a flame war about dino vs. synthetic. If asked, my standard recommendation to others is to buy quality lubricants and change them at recommended intervals.
Most of realize that spirited driving at higher air temps will raise oil temps, and the biggest wear factor for engine oil is short trip driving that doesn't raise oil temps sufficiently to burn off accumulated moisture. You may be familiar with bobistheoilguy.com or some similar URL where they talk for MONTHS about every tiny nuance of oil usage, ash content, shear, additives, etc. I sometimes feel like knowledge has left my brain when I'm done with one of those sites. Not only didn't I learn anything, but I knew more when I logged in than when I logged off. Strange but true.
I crack the lines on the cooler to drain it.
If the oil cooler is mounted above the crankcase would it not drain, gravity being what it is?
I changed my oil a month ago using Rotella 15w40. Decided against synthetic. Pretty soon the new oil looked as dirty as the old oil. May need to let it drain over night in lieu of 10 minutes. I'll likely drain the oil cooler next time.
My oil filter mount controls flow to the cooler. Oil only goes to the cooler when it is at or above 180 degrees. I assume if the oil is cooler than 180 degrees it won't drain through the filter mount.
I am going to replace the filter today and will see if it looks like any oil is coming from the cooler.
Much of my annual mileage includes the 2,500 mile round trip to Carlisle. I guess I've averaged about 4,000 miles a year X 13 years= 52,000 miles which is what I have on the car. (About 30k on the upgraded engine). I change the Brad Penn oil twice a year; in the spring using 20-W50 getting ready for Carlisle then in Nov to 10-W40 weight oil. I probably don't put 600 miles on the winter oil but feel better about using it in freezing temps. I go by season rather than miles and probably put 500 miles above 3,000 on the summer oil. I do have a full flow oil filter set up so I don't worry about it. I just realized that 600 miles on an oil change now feels wasteful but hey--it's my SPEEDSTER---right?
But not gonna start draining the oil cooler radiator---just not.
OK, you motor-head guys: Do you do anything to "pre-charge" the cooler after you've drained it?
I've always assumed (yeah, I know....) that the external cooler return line to the engine (going to the gallery and bearings) will act like a straw full of water with your finger on the end - it won't drain into the case. Therefore, I assume that when I drain the sump, the cooler keeps the oil in it - I'm OK with that as I have a decent external filter, too.
Whenever I've totally disconnected my external cooler (and it drains) I've pre-filled that part of the circuit by running new oil through it via an input hose elevated over the engine, to pour oil into that and through the cooler (it usually takes a quart or more to fill the cooler and lines). (I've always found it best to take a bath in oil before I do this, as it gets all over everything - including me - anyway.) Once oil comes out of the engine end of the return hose I quickly attach the hose to the case (see straw theory, above). This is why I don't drain the cooler when I do oil changes - don't think it's necessary and wicked messy in the first place.
The thought here is that I don't want a lapse in oil pressure to the bearings when I first start it up by having to fill the cooler from the oil pump before oil reaches the bearings. I do the same with the external oil filter - just set it upright on the bench and slowly pour oil into the center hole til it stops going down (filling both sides of the filter paper) and then spin it onto the mount.
Do any of you think this all is doing anything other than making me feel good?
Oh, and I use Brad Penn blend (Green) and am moving to Valvoline VR-1 next year. I change it every 3000 miles or each Spring before Carlisle, whichever comes first (usually Carlisle, these days).
My cooler is plumbed so the line going to the engine is at the top. So, it wouldn't drain into the case.
I have switched to VR-1. I bought a several year (probably lifetime) supply when it was on sale at O'Reilly.
Gordon Nichols posted:
...Do any of you think this all is doing anything other than making me feel good?...
Gordon, I think some questions are better left unanswered.
A wise man once said when your oil starts looking dirty, it's time to change it. That's what I do. As it happens, that is easier to do if the oil you use starts out looking green. When it starts looking brown, I change it. That's usually after about 3000 miles.
Something else to consider: My cooler is positioned so one hose (the return hose) is at the top and one at the bottom. When the oil is drained from the sump, the end of that return hose is open to the air, so the finger-over-the-straw analogy may not hold.
I do know that after I change my oil it looks very green and stays that way for maybe 2000 miles or so, so there can't be very much brown oil left in the system after it's been drained.
This does sound like a good question to ponder, but at my age I can't stay focused on any question long enough to lose much sleep over it.
Michael McKelvey posted:My cooler is plumbed so the line going to the engine is at the top. So, it wouldn't drain into the case.
I have switched to VR-1. I bought a several year (probably lifetime) supply when it was on sale at O'Reilly.
I use VR1 in my Norton and BSA motorcycles, good stuff, plenty of Zn,readily available and not that expensive..
Gordon Nichols posted:OK, you motor-head guys: Do you do anything to "pre-charge" the cooler after you've drained it?
Yes.
An Accusump ensures that the galleys never starve. Ever. I can’t understand why more people don’t run them.
I drain the dry-sump tank, discharge the Accusump, replace the filter, and crack the oil lines when I do the annual oil change. Then I put the 10 qts. in the sump tank, pull the coil wires (2 coils, twin plug) and crank until I get pressure.
Then I replace the coil wires, start it and add 2 qts. to charge the Accusump. In a dry sump engine, you check the oil in the tank with the engine running at temperature. A qt. too much or not enough is no big deal, as long as there’s a bit in reserve.
Before I did the dry-sump conversation, I used to drain the sump, discharge the Accusump, drain the cooler, and replace the filter. Then I’d overfill the sump by a qt., take a coil wire off and crank until I had oil pressure. Then I’d put everything back, and let it run to recharge the Accusump, shut it off & check the oil. After I knew the oil cooler had filled, I’d check again.
In either application the Accusump ensures that the galleys never lose oil pressure when the thermostat opens and the oil cooler fills.
Stan Galat posted:Gordon Nichols posted:OK, you motor-head guys: Do you do anything to "pre-charge" the cooler after you've drained it?
Yes.
An Accusump ensures that the galleys never starve. Ever. I can’t understand why more people don’t run them.
I drain the dry-sump tank, discharge the Accusump, replace the filter, and crack the oil lines when I do the annual oil change. Then I put the 10 qts. in the sump tank, pull the coil wires (2 coils, twin plug) and crank until I get pressure.
Then I replace the coil wires, start it and add 2 qts. to charge the Accusump. In a dry sump engine, you check the oil in the tank with the engine running at temperature. A qt. too much or not enough is no big deal, as long as there’s a bit in reserve.
Before I did the dry-sump conversation, I used to drain the sump, discharge the Accusump, drain the cooler, and replace the filter. Then I’d overfill the sump by a qt., take a coil wire off and crank until I had oil pressure. Then I’d put everything back, and let it run to recharge the Accusump, shut it off & check the oil. After I knew the oil cooler had filled, I’d check again.
In either application the Accusump ensures that the galleys never lose oil pressure when the thermostat opens and the oil cooler fills.
A fine dissertation again, Stan. I've heard of an Accusump but have never seen one. Could you please describe yours and tell me where I should look for one on my new to me car ? Could you also describe the oil flow progression when all is full and running ? I've never had a dry sump engine before. Thanks.
David,
I can almost guarantee you don't have an Accusump.
But... here's the description of a conventional dry-sump as briefly as I can:
Normally (in a conventional oiling system) the oil pump has one set of lobes, and so is a single stage pump. Oil is carried in the sump, sucked up through the pick-up into the sump, pumped out to the filter and oil cooler (in a "full-flow" situation), then back to the galleys.
In a dry-sump, the oil pump has two or more sets of lobes, which are completely separate. Yours is a 2-stage pump, so it acts like two separate pumps. The first stage is for scavenging-- it sucks the crankcase completely dry. This oil is pumped to a holding tank (a dry-sump tank, if you will). Generally, the oil filter and cooler are in this stage, piped between the first stage pump and the holding tank. There are good reasons for this, and I'm sure yours is like this. Mine is not.
The oil in the tank is then sucked into the pressure stage of the pump. From there, it goes to the galleys (or to the filter and cooler, then the galleys, in my case).
Why this is a good idea is:
- There is no oil sloshing around in the crankcase, so "windage" (the crankshaft whipping up an oil foam) is never an issue.
- There is always oil at the pickup for the pressure stage of the pump, because there is always oil in the tank. No matter how high you rev, no matter how aggressively you zig and zag, there will always be oil being supplied to the bearings.
- There is no need for an extended sump, because the sump is the oil tank. This means the car can be quite a bit lower with adequate ground clearance.
You check the oil in the tank, because there is never any extra oil in the crankcase. You check it with the engine running because, you are interested in where the level actually is during normal operation. There's no windage in the tank, so the level is fairly stable at idle.
The Accusump is just a pressure vessel, like a bladder tank on a boiler. It's always plumbed into the pressure side of the oiling system, so that if the pressure ever drops below a certain set-point (generally 20 psi), the vessel discharges into the system. Once there is oil pressure again, it robs a bit of the oil to recharge. I'm using mine primarily to pre-lube the engine on start-up, but in a conventional system it's charging and discharging a lot more, since the pickup is getting exposed more under aggressive driving situations.
I'll make a second post to describe how it works.
From the Canton Racing Products' website:
How does an Accusump Oil Accumulator Work?
Accusumps Oil Accumulators are designed collect pressurized oil from your engine and store it so it may be discharged later. At the time the engine is shut off and the Accusump valve closes any oil pressure in the Accusump is held there. On engine start-up when the valve on the oil side is opened the pressurized oil is released into the engine and therefore pre-lubricates the engine prior to start-up.
After the engine is started and the oil pump has taken over, oil is pumped back into the Accusump. This moves the piston back and pressurizes the Accusump until it equalizes with engine's oil pressure. While driving, if the engine's oil pressure is interrupted for any reason, the Accusump releases its oil reserve again, keeping the engine lubricated until the engine's oil pressure comes back to normal. This release of oil could last from 15 to 60 seconds, depending on the size and speed of the engine. In racing or hard driving conditions, the Accusump will automatically fill and discharge when needed as you corner, accelerate and brake.
Stan, David:
One addition - for a dry sump system, you always check the oil - with the engine running as Stan said - once the engine is up to operating temperature, and the car completely level. That will give you an accurate reading.
Because the oil is in a separate tank, you don't have to worry about oil shooting out when you check it.
way back when my smart friend got a porsche turbo, thought he was so cool,,,he did his 1st oil change and checked it not running, started it and there was oil coming from every orifice of that engine...shut it down, started overand did it right, lucky he didnt blow it up...,,I think my 86 carrera was dry sump, oil filter was up high level with the intake.
i think my Norton and BSA are considered dry sumps, oil is in resevoir under seat, little oil in crankcase.
Accusump (dry fit in Projekt Spyder):
This one holds (I believe) 3 quarts. There are smaller ones (down to a quart, I think?) that would probably work just as well in cars like ours where pre-ignition oiling would be the main purpose and remedying high-banked oval G-force oil starvation would be rare, at best.
edsnova posted:Accusump (dry fit in Projekt Spyder):
This one holds (I believe) 3 quarts. There are smaller ones (down to a quart, I think?) that would probably work just as well in cars like ours where pre-ignition oiling would be the main purpose and remedying high-banked oval G-force oil starvation would be rare, at best.
Ed...where do you get those clamps that are around your Accusump tank, pls. ?
barncobob posted:way back when my smart friend got a porsche turbo, thought he was so cool,,,he did his 1st oil change and checked it not running, started it and there was oil coming from every orifice of that engine...shut it down, started overand did it right, lucky he didnt blow it up...,,I think my 86 carrera was dry sump, oil filter was up high level with the intake.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that all 911's were dry sump'ed?
The clamps came with the Accusump, Dave. I got it all used from Merklin.
Michael, to answer your original question: NO. It's only a quart or so in the cooler and lines. I never worried about it before or after(today) the dry sump.
Once or twice I've removed the cooler and dumped it out. My inlet and outlet to the cooler angle up so the only way to do it is remove it from the car.
David, my friend Jim changes the oil once a year in his 911 SC with a 3.0. I'm sure he puts less than 8,000 miles a year on it, probably closer to 3,000. He uses dino oil.
ALB posted:barncobob posted:way back when my smart friend got a porsche turbo, thought he was so cool,,,he did his 1st oil change and checked it not running, started it and there was oil coming from every orifice of that engine...shut it down, started overand did it right, lucky he didnt blow it up...,,I think my 86 carrera was dry sump, oil filter was up high level with the intake.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that all 911's were dry sump'ed?
They were/are.
Those clamps are used on big truck turbo intercooler hoses
Thank you, Stan.
I have a 1-quart Accusump. As some of you know, it took me a long time to build my Speedster and the Accusump and other engine parts were recommended by Gene Berg himself when I discussed what I needed with him.
I'd definitely drain that, Michael.
David,
Ed's Accusump is held on with t bolt hose clamps, sometimes called racing clamps. In my area, I get them at a hose shop or hydraulic shop. Also easy to get online. I use the stainless models.
@Stan Galat, what is it you would definitely drain, the Accusump?
Michael McKelvey posted:@Stan Galat, what is it you would definitely drain, the Accusump?
Yes.