Ok, from a previous post I stated that my engine was running up around 230F. I'm working on getting more air to my engine but I want a plan B.
Oil coolers, which one and where should it be mounted?
Jerome
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Ok, from a previous post I stated that my engine was running up around 230F. I'm working on getting more air to my engine but I want a plan B.
Oil coolers, which one and where should it be mounted?
Jerome
Oil coolers, which one and where should it be mounted?
Jerome
You probably don't need an auxilliary cooler - instead of putting a band-aid on the problem, find it and fix it.
Jerome,
If your like most other people that own Speedsters and want a cooler running engine then yes an oil cooler is the way to go. It's funny with my car as with or without the oil cooler cyl. head temps don't change that much thus the fan is doing it's job. The oil could be boiling at 230 and yet the head temps are still the same. The head temps only change when I'm on or off the throttle. Anyway, if you want to get the most out of your oil cooler mount it up front where it can get some air like Porsche does. The lines might be a little long but if your getting good pressure then no problem. I've been to the Monterey historics (also coming up next week) and studied what the 356 race cars do and they all have coolers running up front. and place it behind the horn openings. One thing you'll want to do is add a thermostat to both an electric fan and an oil bypass to regulate the temp. I've experimented putting the cooler between the firewall and the interior shell however this doesn't get enough air even with the fan. Put the cooler in a place where it can get the most air. Don't worry it's normal to run an oil cooler, I've set up two diff. engines and both needed coolers.
J-P
If your like most other people that own Speedsters and want a cooler running engine then yes an oil cooler is the way to go. It's funny with my car as with or without the oil cooler cyl. head temps don't change that much thus the fan is doing it's job. The oil could be boiling at 230 and yet the head temps are still the same. The head temps only change when I'm on or off the throttle. Anyway, if you want to get the most out of your oil cooler mount it up front where it can get some air like Porsche does. The lines might be a little long but if your getting good pressure then no problem. I've been to the Monterey historics (also coming up next week) and studied what the 356 race cars do and they all have coolers running up front. and place it behind the horn openings. One thing you'll want to do is add a thermostat to both an electric fan and an oil bypass to regulate the temp. I've experimented putting the cooler between the firewall and the interior shell however this doesn't get enough air even with the fan. Put the cooler in a place where it can get the most air. Don't worry it's normal to run an oil cooler, I've set up two diff. engines and both needed coolers.
J-P
Jerome, you may want to wait until Jake Raby completes all of his fan testing. His data will show which fan has the best cooling characteristics. Should be interesting reading when he's finished.
I like the idea of having a small oil cooler up front for highway driving. I would think that a fan would not be needed for this set-up, unless your car also runs hot at 'around town' lower speeds.
Check out the site below for an example of a 'Front oilcooler kit with thermostat adapter'
www.ahnendorp.com/beetle2.html
Ron
I like the idea of having a small oil cooler up front for highway driving. I would think that a fan would not be needed for this set-up, unless your car also runs hot at 'around town' lower speeds.
Check out the site below for an example of a 'Front oilcooler kit with thermostat adapter'
www.ahnendorp.com/beetle2.html
Ron
Hopefully the extra air ducting I'm working on will solve the problem, but its nice to have a plan B.
My plan is to have the extra ducting done in time to drive back to the inspection station for my VIN plate. We'll see what the temp drop is.
Jerome
My plan is to have the extra ducting done in time to drive back to the inspection station for my VIN plate. We'll see what the temp drop is.
Jerome
Jerome, what type of oil do you have in your motor? Jake mentioned, on another forum, that certain oils, especially sythetics, can reduce the oil temperature by a noticeable amount. I'm going to change the oil in my car this week and switch from Kendal 10w30 to Amsoil 20w50 (or Royal Purple 20w50; I have both). I'm hoping for a slight drop in oil temperature...every little bit helps.
Ron
Ron
Let me toss in here that I used Jake's tests and decided to go for the Vavoline pure synthetic. Noticed a measurable diff 20%? in 100-110' day temps. No real leakage problems. A little at the oil-lines to cooler. Not enough to be a hassle, just wipe it off weekly.
Jim
Jim
So Jim....
What viscosity are you running with the valvoline? Also what viscosity were you running before the synthetic changeover? You also mentioned a 20% improvement in temps. @ 100 deg. days, what temp were you running before and after this change? Also did the synthetic help during mild (say 80 deg.) temp days? One last thing...are your head temp. # the same? Sorry for all the questions, I'd just like to see the benifit of spending an extra 3 bucks a quart and the risk of oil leakage. As it is right now my car doesn't leak a drop and I'd like to keep it that way. I'm currently running Kendall 20/50.
Thanks, J-P
What viscosity are you running with the valvoline? Also what viscosity were you running before the synthetic changeover? You also mentioned a 20% improvement in temps. @ 100 deg. days, what temp were you running before and after this change? Also did the synthetic help during mild (say 80 deg.) temp days? One last thing...are your head temp. # the same? Sorry for all the questions, I'd just like to see the benifit of spending an extra 3 bucks a quart and the risk of oil leakage. As it is right now my car doesn't leak a drop and I'd like to keep it that way. I'm currently running Kendall 20/50.
Thanks, J-P
Jerome...
You may want to hook up a head temp. gauge to see what #'s you get there. I imagine the ducting will help but if the head temp #'s are good then try to figure out a way to cool the oil. I bet getting cool air to the engine compartment could only help things, perhaps some other people can chime in to report there findings from the raised decklid idea.
J-P
You may want to hook up a head temp. gauge to see what #'s you get there. I imagine the ducting will help but if the head temp #'s are good then try to figure out a way to cool the oil. I bet getting cool air to the engine compartment could only help things, perhaps some other people can chime in to report there findings from the raised decklid idea.
J-P
Jean-Paul, just about everyone agrees that synthetic oils are better for quite a few reasons (film strength, lubricity, high temperature breakdown resistance, etc.). In Jim's case, seeing a 20% reduction in oil temperatures by changing to synthetic with no other changes implies to me (maybe incorrectly) -EITHER- that his particular engine may have more frictional losses -OR- in particular his connecting rod clearances may be "tight" (especially side clearances) so that the synthetic flows out more freely (absorbs less heat in passing). Or both?
I belive the engine has Amsoil 20w50 in it.
Jerome
Jerome
Does anybody do things the old way and use straight 30W? Any thoughts?what do you think George.
Jerry
Jerry
Do a search on oil, there was a big discussion a while back.
Jerome
Jerome
I use 10W30, to answer a question. I chose the Vavoline based on Jake's tests indicating this to be the best he tested in terms of substantial cooling differences.
Geo, I used 30W before. The 20% was a swag... non-scientific, no conditions set, etc. I'm not a tester, just an owner who thought Jake's work was good enough for me.
As for a tight engine or friction.... My car ran within tolerances/temps on 105' days before and spins like a top. I doubt that was or is a factor. Simply put, my guage (with tick marks calibrated in using a themometer) indicates my oil temps are significantly lower in hot ass Oklahoma. Head temps? I have no idea. We checked them after the build in a variety of abusive situations and they were always well below concern levels. I haven't bothered to check them since. My car runs cool.. so why bother?
My bottom end is all Scat balanced, H Rods, Mahle. The engine is basic good stuff, assembled with care. I change oil every 2500 miles and do the valves then too. Heads are CB044 with big valves and dual springs.
Coolong unit came from Scat, with a melling pump. I use a Bug-Pack in-line 180' thermostat and have hardwired a on/off overide under the dash. I carry a spare stat in my ER kit. Also have a 1.5 QT sump. I have a welded/balanced fan and late model doghouse. I change plugs often and stay on top of the fuel mix settings for optimum performance.
IOW, nothing extraordinary, except good parts, routine maint, and good oil. Ohh, and in my humble opinion, many of the heat/cooling issues posted here may have a basis in tuning and carb settings, also in having proper engine tin in place. Also, I suspect improper/inadequate exhaust may be an issue with some cars. With my CSP 1 1/2" system I had to do some bending and such to route the exhaust away from the h-21 spin on filter. Built a heat deflector to reduce direct heat from headers to filter. I think inadequte exhaust diameter may be causing some others heating problems. JMO.
I'm no expert. I just watch and read like everyone else here... and apply what seems to work. Jake's list of tested synthetics led me to my choice. He's the expert, I'm a consumer.
Jim<
(Message Edited 8/12/2003 5:22:37 PM)
Geo, I used 30W before. The 20% was a swag... non-scientific, no conditions set, etc. I'm not a tester, just an owner who thought Jake's work was good enough for me.
As for a tight engine or friction.... My car ran within tolerances/temps on 105' days before and spins like a top. I doubt that was or is a factor. Simply put, my guage (with tick marks calibrated in using a themometer) indicates my oil temps are significantly lower in hot ass Oklahoma. Head temps? I have no idea. We checked them after the build in a variety of abusive situations and they were always well below concern levels. I haven't bothered to check them since. My car runs cool.. so why bother?
My bottom end is all Scat balanced, H Rods, Mahle. The engine is basic good stuff, assembled with care. I change oil every 2500 miles and do the valves then too. Heads are CB044 with big valves and dual springs.
Coolong unit came from Scat, with a melling pump. I use a Bug-Pack in-line 180' thermostat and have hardwired a on/off overide under the dash. I carry a spare stat in my ER kit. Also have a 1.5 QT sump. I have a welded/balanced fan and late model doghouse. I change plugs often and stay on top of the fuel mix settings for optimum performance.
IOW, nothing extraordinary, except good parts, routine maint, and good oil. Ohh, and in my humble opinion, many of the heat/cooling issues posted here may have a basis in tuning and carb settings, also in having proper engine tin in place. Also, I suspect improper/inadequate exhaust may be an issue with some cars. With my CSP 1 1/2" system I had to do some bending and such to route the exhaust away from the h-21 spin on filter. Built a heat deflector to reduce direct heat from headers to filter. I think inadequte exhaust diameter may be causing some others heating problems. JMO.
I'm no expert. I just watch and read like everyone else here... and apply what seems to work. Jake's list of tested synthetics led me to my choice. He's the expert, I'm a consumer.
Jim<
(Message Edited 8/12/2003 5:22:37 PM)
Jim,
What else is in the ER kit?
Jerome
What else is in the ER kit?
Jerome
Jim, one of the biggest causes of frictional loss on a VW engine can be if the bore centers in the case are not as precisely true/square as possible (they're never perfect). Everything else may have been measured and checked during the build but few engine builders check that, they just assume it's OK. If it's not...
Jim,
Who built the engine? The more I read your posts, the more I think you took an approach more in line with my opinions concerning power, etc in a replica. BTW, about that ICT linkage...
Who built the engine? The more I read your posts, the more I think you took an approach more in line with my opinions concerning power, etc in a replica. BTW, about that ICT linkage...
Jerome and Stan:
First Stan, I had it built by a local with a great rep and a good machine shop. He's had three cover cars on Trends and Hot VWs. Thank you for the complement. If I were going bigger CC I would get Jake's 2017 or Down's 2110 built with the best. Anyway, our approach on this engine (1776) was to build it correctly using tried and true formulas, but also ensured that ALL the parts and case were the best quality and everything was done in balance. It really has turned out to be a great engine for everyday use. I have had minimal tweeks to do, and it has been absolutely 100% reliable, day in, day out. Sounds great and gives all the performance one would expect out of a well built 1776. Now, in my heart of hearts I want that 2017 from Raby's. If I can get it all together soon I will go that way, expecting the same reliability with an added 30-40 HP! Now, the CB kit! Write me at jward3@cox.net give me an address and I will pack it up in two weeks and send it. Will be at our lake place til then. I'd love for you to have it, as it is a very nice system for the ICTs...gives them a grown up look, and the linkage is good too.
Jerome. First, let me pass kudos on your car. Been following your posts and love the energy you are putting into it. ER Kit? Well, I have this kit for long hauls, but ended up carrying it full time: (BTW, drove it to Colorado and back two weeks ago.... zero problems)
1. Thermostat
2. All Basic Open/box ends.5 Basic Sockets and a mini ratchet. Mini-Cresent, screwdrivers, allen wrenches, pliers, etc... only in the sizes routinely used. Electrical tape, Locktite, WD-40, Duct tape, Carb cleaner and Can of Ether.
3. Belt, and extra shims (just in case I lose one)
4. 009 Distributor with points in and set, blue coil
5. Cable ends/stops.
6. Clutch cable.
7. Two long 7mm wires and ends,
8, Roll of electrical wire.
9. Flashlight
10 Scissor Jack and folding lug wrench under my spare. Small Hyd jack and 2 ea 2x4x6 for platforms.
11. fuses
12. spare bulbs.
13, cables
14 2 long reach plugs
15. Manual.
16. small guage safety wire.
17 Oil
Ok, this all sounds like alot... and it is, haha. But I just use a pair of old Medic Bags, one for tools, the other parts. They take up zero space if laid on the edge of each side of the lid. For long trips or car shows I add a detail suitcase... a small old beat up traveler with tourist stickers.
There's probably more in the bags,,, but that's what I recall now. Is it overkill? Yes. I plan on using a cell phone when in trouble, But you know, I've blown a belt once... and lost a throttle cable end & having my ER kit just made these things a breeze to deal with. I like to take my car on long solo cruises and so that, with a 44 Super Blackhawk makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
Jim
(Message Edited 8/12/2003 11:22:14 PM)
First Stan, I had it built by a local with a great rep and a good machine shop. He's had three cover cars on Trends and Hot VWs. Thank you for the complement. If I were going bigger CC I would get Jake's 2017 or Down's 2110 built with the best. Anyway, our approach on this engine (1776) was to build it correctly using tried and true formulas, but also ensured that ALL the parts and case were the best quality and everything was done in balance. It really has turned out to be a great engine for everyday use. I have had minimal tweeks to do, and it has been absolutely 100% reliable, day in, day out. Sounds great and gives all the performance one would expect out of a well built 1776. Now, in my heart of hearts I want that 2017 from Raby's. If I can get it all together soon I will go that way, expecting the same reliability with an added 30-40 HP! Now, the CB kit! Write me at jward3@cox.net give me an address and I will pack it up in two weeks and send it. Will be at our lake place til then. I'd love for you to have it, as it is a very nice system for the ICTs...gives them a grown up look, and the linkage is good too.
Jerome. First, let me pass kudos on your car. Been following your posts and love the energy you are putting into it. ER Kit? Well, I have this kit for long hauls, but ended up carrying it full time: (BTW, drove it to Colorado and back two weeks ago.... zero problems)
1. Thermostat
2. All Basic Open/box ends.5 Basic Sockets and a mini ratchet. Mini-Cresent, screwdrivers, allen wrenches, pliers, etc... only in the sizes routinely used. Electrical tape, Locktite, WD-40, Duct tape, Carb cleaner and Can of Ether.
3. Belt, and extra shims (just in case I lose one)
4. 009 Distributor with points in and set, blue coil
5. Cable ends/stops.
6. Clutch cable.
7. Two long 7mm wires and ends,
8, Roll of electrical wire.
9. Flashlight
10 Scissor Jack and folding lug wrench under my spare. Small Hyd jack and 2 ea 2x4x6 for platforms.
11. fuses
12. spare bulbs.
13, cables
14 2 long reach plugs
15. Manual.
16. small guage safety wire.
17 Oil
Ok, this all sounds like alot... and it is, haha. But I just use a pair of old Medic Bags, one for tools, the other parts. They take up zero space if laid on the edge of each side of the lid. For long trips or car shows I add a detail suitcase... a small old beat up traveler with tourist stickers.
There's probably more in the bags,,, but that's what I recall now. Is it overkill? Yes. I plan on using a cell phone when in trouble, But you know, I've blown a belt once... and lost a throttle cable end & having my ER kit just made these things a breeze to deal with. I like to take my car on long solo cruises and so that, with a 44 Super Blackhawk makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
Jim
(Message Edited 8/12/2003 11:22:14 PM)
Wow, looks like you are prepared for damn near anything!
The time between getting legal and the snow flying I won't be going too far. This year I plan on driving no further that work and back (20 minutes) and the occational ice cream run. Thats until I work out the temp problem and all the other bug that will crop up. I think I will make up my own "ER Bag" then for everything else I will rely on a cell phone and an understanding wife.
Jerome
The time between getting legal and the snow flying I won't be going too far. This year I plan on driving no further that work and back (20 minutes) and the occational ice cream run. Thats until I work out the temp problem and all the other bug that will crop up. I think I will make up my own "ER Bag" then for everything else I will rely on a cell phone and an understanding wife.
Jerome
I would add a coat hanger; sounds silly but they can come in handy for alot of things.
ed
ed
Don't forget the fix it flat and the micro air pump and lastly the AAA card. What do you guys use for a jack???
Also the Valvoline oil sounds pretty good. Do you have the link to the oil rec. by Raby?
Thanks, J-P
Also the Valvoline oil sounds pretty good. Do you have the link to the oil rec. by Raby?
Thanks, J-P
Oh yeah, can't forget the duct tape!
Anybody going to the Monterey historic races this weekend???
J-P
Anybody going to the Monterey historic races this weekend???
J-P
I would add needle-nosed pliers, medium sized Vise-Grips, regular pliers, a throttle cable, a tire patch kit, and a tire pump.
Jean-Paul,
Can't make the Montery Historic Races this year but am thinking about attending the Zippo Vintage Grand Prix at Watkins Glen Sept 3-5. Anyone been to that before?
Can't make the Montery Historic Races this year but am thinking about attending the Zippo Vintage Grand Prix at Watkins Glen Sept 3-5. Anyone been to that before?
ooooooooo! No, I've not been there before.... Please do explain..
Oh yeah, is this the Bruce I met up in Hollywood with the black JPS speedster?
J-P
Oh yeah, is this the Bruce I met up in Hollywood with the black JPS speedster?
J-P
Nope, white Speedster C in Maryland
Bruce: I might get to the Zippo races at Watkins Glen in September. Also, a fellow owner from this area goes there every year - he has a silver IM roadster. I saw his car last year, and that's when I got the bug for one of these vehicles.
Bob
Bob
Easy quick fix for high temp running engines .
be sure the engine bay/ compartment is sealed properly...
Then to run cooler cut a retangular hole 1 " less in diameter than the rear lic plate /tag holder ( be sure to leave "tabs" to affix the tag back in place ) Reattach the tag with 1" offset spacers( cut down rubber shock washers etc)...what a difference this will make in running tems I saw this on a IM Speedster tried it and was pleased with the posiitive rresults!
Alan M
be sure the engine bay/ compartment is sealed properly...
Then to run cooler cut a retangular hole 1 " less in diameter than the rear lic plate /tag holder ( be sure to leave "tabs" to affix the tag back in place ) Reattach the tag with 1" offset spacers( cut down rubber shock washers etc)...what a difference this will make in running tems I saw this on a IM Speedster tried it and was pleased with the posiitive rresults!
Alan M
You actually cut a HOLE in the back of your car? Wow, I could never do that.
Ron, I like Bruce's car...where he cut a hole behind the shroud-in the firewall-and had cool air ducted directly into the shroud. It wouldn't work on my 911 shroud, but on a doghouse it would be the cat's whiskers. I agree, cutting into the body would scare the crap out of me. The difference between boys (the two Ronnies) and the men (Alan).
Ron
Ron
Aerodynamically the faster you go the worse these cars cool. There is a large separation bubble that occurs over and behind the car with the top down. It is so strong that it will lift the folded down top partially up, suck cd cases off the passenger seat and suck the engine cover up if it is not latched properly. Add the intake and cooling demand for a large motor and there is a very strong vacuum back there. At speed these cars are starving for air. Ron mentioned my car were I have ducted from in front of the passenger rear wheel with a 4
Bruce, could you provide more details re your fresh air duct work and how you retro fit it to your car? Where is the "variable inlet" and how do you reduce the air flow during cool weather? I have something in mind but why reinvent the wheel? I would think cooler air to the carb inlets would be beneficial, too. I wonder why the McSpeedster manufacturers don't offer this as an option, especially for warm climate or high hp cars.
Would propping the engine lid open (3 inches) help cooling? I'm sure I would not be that hard to fab a bracket that attached to the latch mechanism and the lid latch.
Ron
Ron
Yeah, but Ron, that would be ugly!
I agree with Erik about wanting more info on your mod Bruce. Can you post some pictures for us? Or, if we can arrange to get together, I can take a bunch of pictures.
I agree with Erik about wanting more info on your mod Bruce. Can you post some pictures for us? Or, if we can arrange to get together, I can take a bunch of pictures.
Make sure you give Bruce some notice, so he can pull the motor...so you have a good angle for the pictures. Come on Bruce....it's for the guys on the forum!
Ron
Ron
The camera is small, has a flash, takes close-ups, and fits into small spaces, unlike me.
My car has Carrera louvers. When it is finally back on the road in a few weeks I will conduct a non-scientific experiment by tying small strands of yarn onto the louvers and drive at highway+ speeds. The purpose is to see what is going on back there. Will the yarn be sucked into the louvers at highway speed; will it be standing straight out in the wind or will there be a back pressure/vacuum which will cause the yarn to lay flat on the lid.
The easiest/cheapest upgrade is the use of engine lid "buttons" and remove the lid gasket. More cool air into the engine compartment is a good thing.
The easiest/cheapest upgrade is the use of engine lid "buttons" and remove the lid gasket. More cool air into the engine compartment is a good thing.
I will try to take some pictures in the next few days.
Bruce
Bruce
They are up.
Bruce
Bruce