Oil coolers, doghouses, DTMs, etc.

I know there must be a thousand, or more, posts here having to do w/ the single most worried about thing w/ these engines: oil temperature, and also head temperature. I must admit I am as confused as ever about what is best for cooling, etc. And there may be a range of replies here, as "adequate" might not be "the very best", but still would be just fine under all but the most extreme conditions. As you know, I am having a JPS Speedster built with a 2332 cc engine installed, and my recollection is John Steele saying the std VW doghouse and oil cooler will work just fine, and the DTM is over-rated (that is my recollection of John's opinion here, maybe not his exact words). If one listens and reads here on the SOC Forum, and also hears what Jake Raby, and others, have to say, then you get a whole different twist. Some have said JPS is just wrong in his opinion. Where is the truth?? How "good" is good-enough?

Here's my thoughts.
As a safe guard measure, I always install a Mesa brand 72 row oil cooler with a fan on any motor larger than a 1641cc. While the stock in shroud cooler does the job, the speedster engine bay has air restrictions over the stock Beetle configuration. Never use their suggestion of barbed fittings, hose and clamps.
For $40 bucks or so, you can have made up heavy duty hyd. quality hoses.
IMO best to utlize an in line thermostat plus a manual over ride switch for the fan.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-External-oil-cooler-New-sand-rail-bug-bus_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33600QQihZ017QQitemZ270141585320QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Well, there are many things that generate heat in an engine. And it is hard to predict how much heat an engine will generate until it is in service. However, the larger an engine and the higher performance standards it is built to, the more heat it is likely to generate. I have a 2332 with a DTM. Based upon advice from a big time engine builder I started off with the larger type IV cooler in the DMT shroud. It was completely and totally insufficent for my engine. With ambient temps of over 90 degrees the oil temps would go over 240 in about 10 miles of driving 65 mph...keep in mind my engine is in the 200 hp range....maybe a bit more...

I replaced the type IV cooler with a 96 pass external cooler with electric fan, thermostat and the like. Even with that, after running 80-90-100mph for say an hour the oil temps will go over 220 degrees.... I am considering adding a second external cooler. I have also wrapped the headers with thermo cool tape, which has helped a bit.

So, I would be more than a bit suspcious of the JPS claim that you don't need more cooling. More is better than less in my thinking....

OK, Alan,

An external oil cooler and fan, T/stat, overide will cover all bases. In a pretty much "standard" Speedster, where does the cooler/fan go? Txs for the advice. PS: I have seen Cory's system installed in the Hoopty, and have seen how it works. He seems very pleased, and has noticed a big improvment in oil temps.

I mount the fan-cooler just to the left (driver's side) of the transmission with a couple of hand made heavy sheet metal brackets.
One of the two wire goes to common chassis ground, the other is switch power with a relay due to the electrical draw.
BTW, the fan blade is easily removable to change from a pusher to a puller fan set up if need be.

I was in the same position as you. Granted I only have a 1776 but with a turbo. I have a doghouse shroud and a Setrab oil cooler.

You should also look into a Setrab oil cooler. They are pretty small. but the are pretty efficient. If one doesn't do it get the larger one.
http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=ECO0039&cartid=

Kelly,
Don't forget about the exhaust system. You should be running a 1-5/8" merged header with that big motor.
Have John cut a hole in the firewall directly in front of the fan.
Think about having John cut out the "hump" in the rear deck under the grill and installing the wire mesh. Better breathing.
Oh, make sure John puts in the seal between the engine tin and firewall. He forgot to do it on mine.
Calibrate your oil temp gauge on your car. You can use a dipstick thermometer to find out your temps and then mark it on your idiot gauge. I'll loan you mine if you need it. Better yet, install an oil temp gauge that has the numbers on it.
Whatever you can do to keep the hot air out of the engine bay will help.
The best remote oil cooler you can buy is the Setrab Fanpak. Well worth the $300+.

See, now this is where I would leave my dear pal flapping in the breeze.
He (Kelly) has a romantic history with cars that puke oil and run hot -- he says he's after nostalgia on one hand, but wants a cool-running, well-sorted and highly developed descendant nowadays.
Bah.
Run it hot, Kelly. and when it's done smoking and dripping in the garage, trade me!
HAHAHA ... ha ... ha.

In the end, it's not John Steel living with your car, it's you. Get a DTM, and a big oil cooler (with all the goodies- nice bypass thermostat, fan thermostat, etc.), and a 1-3/4" sidewinder exhaust. Keep in mind that the cooling system John wants to put in your car is not even on par with what came stock in a 1600 cc engine, and you displace 50% more than that. A speedster has a lot going against it in the cooling department by design-- the stuff Terry suggests (the mesh, and hole in front of the fan intake, etc.) is advice born out by somebody living with the car in a hot climate, not by somebody trying to avoid doing extra work. GERD'S suggestion to the question was to run the car without a engine cover-- I'm sure that's not the look you are going for.

Setrab coolers are the state of the industry, but most of us have the EMPI cooler/fan combinations sold in every VW aftermarket place in America. If you do the EMPI thing, skip their bypass thermostat, as the ports are "smallish". A nice MOCAL sandwich bypass thermostat is less than $100 from sone place like Summitt. I'd also recommend the 96 plate cooler- it's about $20 more than a 72 plate, and it's... well... 20% bigger. It's cheap insurance. I'm like Alan- I skip the barbed hose connections, just go to a hydraulic hose shop and have them make some up. Mine cost a hundred bucks or so, but it was money well spent.

You spent a lot of money for that engine. You're going to end up putting all this stuff on anyhow. Tell John you'll pay extra for the stuff, and do it right the first time.

Kelley:

I agree with most of the above comments, but I have to disagree on the DTM cooler, unless Jake has made some vast improvements in the past couple of years. I recall that during his testing he found that the DTM worked "pretty well", but did not do as good a job as a stock, 1971-on VW cooling shroud with all of the air vanes and sheet metal in place. That was on a large displacement engine, but I can't recall how big it was. I also remember that Jake was obsessed with getting the DTM to work better, so I trust that he's made some improvememnts...I just haven't kept track of where he's at with it.

A little before Jake ran those tests, both George Brown and I were building up our engines, and, through a few emails back and forth, we decided to go with a stock, salvage yard VW 1971 fan shroud (the flat-topped one), the Stock 1971 VW cooling tower, ALL air vanes working inside the shroud and connected to the VW bellows thermostat, and all engine compartment heat shields separating top from bottom and sealing along the firewall. We both ran at least 1-5/8" exhaust headers, too, but neither of us wrapped them.

George added full-flow oil lines and an external oil cooler and filter up front in his build, and his oil temp stayed under 205F. I did not have the external system at first, and on my 2,110 engine on a 90 F day I would get up around 218 - 220F and thought that was a little toasty (in more ways than one) so I full flowed the case and added a DeRale 16-pass fan assisted external cooler. You can read about that here> http://www.speedstershop.com/viewtopic.php?t=349 showing how it's mounted and connected.

THAT mod brought me down to 185 - 200 all the time, including some spirited highway driving last Summer at 100+F Outside temps. It'll run 200F underway on a highway, climbing to 205F when I stop and idle, then go back to 200 when underway again (Measured with a "Mainely by design" dipstick thermometer).

When we built Lane's car, we added the Setrab cooler talked about above, and it looked like a high quality, nicely done unit. It was mounted up over the Transmission, if I remember correctly, and was easy to service. Carey also included the oil line thermostat for better warm up. I would also highly recommend getting some hydraulic hoses made up (THAT was Stan's good recommendation to me!) and they cost me about $100, too, but they'll last longer than the car. Just remember that starting it on a cold day with 40wt or thicker oil in there can push well over 150 psi through those hoses for the first few minutes...

gn

"can push well over 150 psi through those hoses for the first few minutes..."

And we know what THAT can do, don't we?

I agree with some of the suggestions posted above. In Speedsters you need more fresh air to enter the engine compartment; you can either open up the firewall or add a scoop which you locate on top of the right rear torsion bar area and hook up with a hose to the front engine tin. See photos. I did that following instructions in one of Gene Berg's technical articles. The suggestion to add air intake capacity from the top (modifying the area under the decklid grill) is also valid; just make sure that whatever you do you still keep it watertight.

A couple of observations I made in my decision about fan shrouds were based not only on cooling effectiveness but the power trade-off to run them.

I had numerous discussions with Jake about what to use and while the doghouse is a good design, and as pointed out perfectly adequate to a certain size engine, I came away with the only way it excelled over the DTM was that it didn't suck out as much engine power to run it. So when doing the math, the doghouse wasn't adequate to cool my 2615, which made plenty of power to support the heavier-duty fan, etc, etc, etc.

Now Jake broke my heart when he told me how the 911-style shroud faired in his testing. Not only was it less effective in cooling the engine, it sucked more power to run than both the doghouse and a DTM. So much for a great 'look' in the engine bay.

I think most every serious enthusiast here has added an auxillary cooler and fan to supplement their shroud. The one Alan described has the number of loops/veins whatever they're called to do a great job. Fittings shouldn't be overlooked.

I stuck my apparatus up between the back cabin wall and firewall. I asked about getting it up front where air would hit it more readily and it was explained to me that unless I going 600 MPH, I wouldn't be getting any benefit from air flow.

Last thought, I think most builders like to turn a little profit on the resale of equipment used in their build. I don't think Jake discounts. He has his numbers dialed in whether they are on the dyno or in the ledger. If a client at Vintage or JPS or Intermeccanica has a notion of what he wants and is willing to pay for it, the builder should honor that request.

The stock VW doghouse shroud is the best, as Gordon mentioned. It's not as "sexy" as the Porsche style shroud or the DTM, but it works the best.
The engine compartment on the Speedster replicas are a lot tighter than a stock VW and more restrictive than the real 356. Opening up the vent underneath the grill will help out considerably, but if you want to keep the engine bay more water tight, modify the rear decklid to stay open a few inches during the hot weather.
There are photos of racers doing that while at the track.
I'm still working on my swamp cooler experiment as that seems to have quite a significant affect on oil temps. You can drop the temperature by 20 degrees quickly if water is misted on to the remote oil cooler or into the fan.
Good discussion, btw.

Wow!! As I alluded up front, this does indeed seem to be the most agonized-over aspect of these engines. So many folks have "been there, done that" and lived to tell the tale. And not only lived, but can't wait to tell. I am very grateful for the sage advice. Obviously, I have bounced this off of John at JPS, and among other things, he reminds me he has seen many engines "burned up" that did not have oil temps too high, which is to say these engines are AIR cooled, not OIL cooled. To John, its all about the air, which to me means the heads and fins. Of course, it is not good to over cook your oil, as the oil itself will not like that, and you will have break-down sooner. And, there cannot be a total disconnect between the temp of the engine/heads/etc. and the temp. of the oil circulating therein: the hip bone is connected to the shin bone -- somehow. John also emphasized the need to keep upper and lower engine halves duly isolated, and watch out for how hot pipes can radiate. As a heat transfer engineer -- it is what I do -- I get that. PS: heater boxes tend to help out in this regard as they make a dandy radiation shield between hot ex. pipes and anything else in the vicinity. I know some folks run w/out these, but not me, as I live in the colder winters, and plan to run all year. Further, John mentions that both spark timing and carb setting (rich/lean) have a much sronger bearing on the true thermal balance in the engine than anything else. So his position is: keep the hot underside isolated from the cooler top-side and run the motor tuned properly, and all will be fine; stock fan/doghouse/oil cooler will do the job nicely.

I sincerely apprecaite the outpouring of knowledge on this topic, and will take all advice to heart. John says my build is about a week or so away from done, and I have no heart to call for any last minute changes. Which is to say, I am going to take the car the way John puts it together, and then be watchful for how it performs, and then deal accordingly.

Yeah, I got the same talk from John as well.
Did I mention that I have a 2110 and it came with a stock 1-3/8" exhaust?
Look, I live in an area that sees pretty extreme temperature changes. I have spent the four years of owning my car finding ways to try and get it to run cooler. I have talked/bugged friends here and elsewhere, and just about every aircooled mechanic I can find, about heat issues.
If you drive your car, I mean really drive your car, and you have a decent sized motor, you will be having fun with this.
I really like John and consider him a friend. His job is to build you a beautiful replica and he'll do that. But every car is hand built and every engine is hand built. Maybe you'll get lucky and never have a heat issue. You probably won't if you do casual "weekend" driving. I drive the shit out of "Penny" on these country roads and maybe that's why I've had more issues.
Even if I knew then what I know now I probably still would have had to do my own modifications.
Whatever you do, have fun and don't sweat the small stuff.

Kelley, you bring up a great talking point; that is, the head temps and the oil temp are directly related and should be managed together. You need a LOT of air in the right places to adequately cool the heads, and that, in turn, will also keep the oil cool. That is why many people, including Jake Raby and Gene Berg, have found that removing the stock VW cooling tower inside of the fan shroud (in favor of just using an external oil cooler) not only makes the oil temp go up, but also screws up the airflow balance within the shroud and makes the head temps (especially Cyl #3) go up as well.....a LOT!

John's right, in that a stock cooling system and properly sealing engine heat shields are the best way to go on that engine, and that should get you well into the ballpark - maybe even to the infield. Then, once you get driving it to see how it reacts to your area's climate and so forth, you can do some tweaking to get to Home Plate.

As long as your engine case is already drilled and tapped for a "Full Flow" external oil filter and/or cooler, anything you may need to do later on should be relatively easy.

Also, don't get hung up on making the engine compartment watertight - original 356's never were. When you washed the outside of the car, the engines got soaked, too ;>) Never seemed to bother them... Opening up the underside of the engine cover to allow more airflow is a good idea, but if you don't want to do that, just open up a corresponding hole in the firewall in front of the fan inlet and put a short rubber duct there to channel the air into the inlet. It should be flush with the firewall, and stop about 1/2" from the inlet sheetmetal (to allow normal movement of the engine).

gn

Good posts all.

Gordon, Jake continued to refine the DTM until he had a "breakthrough" (his hyperbole, not mine) concerning the vanes, at which point his tests showed the DTM to be better than the stock doghouse shroud. Or something.... although none of us has ever seen the super-secret data. All I can say is-- it does a whole lot better than the 36 hp doghouse (Sact, EMPI, et al) that everybody else uses, and I've been satisfied with the performance of the thing. I'll should have some good numbers this time next year, after I have installed an aviation CHT gauge.

An ACVW engine is indeed "air cooled", but is isn't going to be "oil lubricated" if the oil temps get too high.

I have a DTM on my 2270 type 4 . The oil temps durning a mid 80 F day is 185 F. When it's 95 F the oil temp runs at 195 -200F . Hard running at 105 MPH the oil temp reached 220F. I'm sold on it. There is less internal geometry issue on the DTM which allows clean air flow. It does't have seams which tend to decrease the efficency. It doesn't rust or pit.

Stan wrote: "An ACVW engine is indeed "air cooled", but is isn't going to be "oil lubricated" if the oil temps get too high."

Got that right!

This may just confuse people more than they already are, but I have a copy of the "Porsche Complete Owner's Handbook of Repair and Maintenance" written by Floyd Clymer back in the 60's (mine is pretty dog-eared....).

In it, you find that Porsche broke their engines in on Shell Rotella, then recommended straight weight oil (Castrol, Kendall or Oilzum at that time, but we know a bit more, now - gn); 30 wt Summer, 20 wt Winter "for moderate climates", going to 40-50 wt for "tropical" climates, and 10W wt for "cold climates", the "W" meaning that the viscosity was measured at zero degrees F.

They go on to say that there is no "Normal" operating temperature for these engines, and that the temperature gauge will swing around, depending on operating parameters (and we all know THAT! - gn)

Porsche apparently set the maximum sustained operating temperature at the measurement point (the oil gallery boss just to the right of the distributor) at 250 degrees F [Wow! - gn], but point out that the oil cooler comes after that in the circuit and drops the oil temp by 50 degrees or so, so you're measuring at the hottest point, and the engine bearings will see something less than 250 F.

They make a point of noting that "the engine should never be 'raced' or driven hard until the temp gauge needle has swung up off the lower peg, or engine operating temperature reaches 160 degrees F".

Guess that means we shouldn't be running the revs up when cold to get the temp up quicker, huh?

So don't everyone run out and change their oil or feel it's OK to run the temperature up. Read the article on modern oils at lnengineering.com to help decide on what to use (Shell Rotella Diesel rated CI-4 is still good in my book, as are a few others), remember that "cooler is better" and that 180 F to 210 F MAX will make your engine last longer. I just quoted Floyd's handbook to show what people were thinking back when the original cars were produced.

... as a post script, if you open the firewall and do any ducting or apply ANY rubber molding or trim be certain it is secure, otherwise it may get sucked into your fan. That will negate any cooling efforts whether you're running the doghouse or DTM or whatever!

Interesting words from the workbook. They come from the days when roller bearings were still thought to be the bomb???

Great post Gord; I learned a lot from it. Now that you mention Rotella I've got a gallon of straight 40W that I found at a local Western Auto/Advance Auto Parts (they're sort of merged here) and it's CI-4 but it looks like it was the only one left as the new CJ-4 spec had already come on the scene so I nabbed it quick. I understand the new CJ-4 doesn't have the same optimal zinc and phosphorus content so important to flat tappet cam engines. I'm putting The CI-4 in on my next oil change (in a little less than 500 miles). I've read that you can supplement your favorite oil (including the more modern version of Rotella) with GM's Engine Oil Supplement and that will provide it with the extra amount of zinc and phosphorus needed for our air cooled engines.

Paul: Looks like slightly after when roller bearing cranks were in vogue - 1960 as far as I can tell...My copy is pretty beat up and liberally coated with oily fingerprints in some places, but it was one of the Bibles my brother and his friends used when they had 356's in the 60's.

There's a whole chapter on the Spyder and then "Carrera" engine (same engine in this chapter), with a consult by Vasek Polak on the West Coast, who apparently crafted some of the finest racing engines out that way from 1956 thru the late 60's+. One neat quote was that the Carerra was not as wildly accepted here in America as in Europe, which was partially attributed to "the necessarily conservative road techniques that we must adhere to inorder not to run afoul of the law".

Polak's "Cardinal sins" of owners of these roller-bearing engines were: "(1) too short warm-up period, (2) warming up at too slow RPM, (3) not changing oil regularly, (4) "lugging" the engine. Commonest complaints coming in to his shop are poor performance traceable to improper float level in carburetors, wrong plugs and improper ignition timing".

Interestingly, the Hirth roller-bearing cranks were only used before 1960 on engines smaller than the 1600. They also produced about 125 bhp.

The problem with "lugging": "At low speeds the crankshaft bearings in the Hirth crank do not rotate and the same individual bearing roller receives the thrust of the power explosion on each revolution with resultant flattening. In the Plain (non-roller bearing) crank this is not so marked but "lugging," i.e.: putting the engine under an overload at low speed (anything under 2,000 rpm on these engines - gn) will cause the same type of damage nonetheless.

Most drivers, Vasek Polak opines, do not keep their engines revved up high enough. They will use 4th gear, for instance, simply because the car will run in that cog, instead of downshifting to 3rd. Keeping the tachometer needle in the 4,000 & up range will not hurt the engine but dropping consistently into the 2000 area surely will."

Boy, the stuff you learn from the "old guys"!!

This is just a sniff of what the rest of the book is like. There are entire chapters on just about everything (the chapter on Maintenance shows, among other things a picture of, and lists the entire contents, of the "Porsche tool Bag"). It's about the size of one of today's paperbacks, and runs 216 pages. Must have been a Gold mine back then, as it has a 1960 cover price of $4.00!!

gn

Interesting info, Gord. But remember, these aren't Porsche motors.
Porsche built theirs to a much higher standard and for "spirited" driving. Volkswagens were the "peoples car" and viewed as quite utilitarian.
Kelly, here's a quick fix for a hood prop on a JPS:
Take a 4-1/2" piece of flat bar metal. Dog ear one end. Remove the left bolt holding the lock mechanism and insert the squared end of the flat bar. Re-attach the bolt. Do some finessing(bending) on the flat bar and Voila!

WHATS DOG EAR MEAN CAUSE YOUR PIECE DOESNT LOOK BENT

Lop off the corners. Look at the photo, Gerd. (I'm rolling my eyes right now).

Right, Gerd! Geeesh!

'Dog-eared' has a different denotation for Tax Forms or Tax Books than they do for Car Parts or Hood Props! 8>)

Although I'm sure the skills of most of the builders on this forum far surpass my own abilities, this was my attempt to try to cool my 2110 Bernie Bergmann engine with two Derale 16 pass fan assisted coolers mounted up front behind the horn grilles. Even though I will agree the commercially built hoses are certainly more preferable, I'm trusting in the barb and clamp hoses I fabbed on holding together. Everything seems to be working well thus far. I have posted a few other pics in the "Photo" section with more detail.

I hope you have a big oil pump, John. Those are some LONG lines.

John:

First, where do you live? Climate will make a difference in your set-up.

Second, Bernie always seems to push TWO of those DeRale coolers on his engine customers, along with a special adapter to replace the stock VW oil cooling tower with a pair of external coolers. Don't know why, because the stock cooling system, supplemented with a single DeRale 16-pass or SeTrab or equivalent should be sufficient.

Having said all that, what you've done to plumb all that together with the thermostat, etc. looks like a work of art, and it should work well. Very nice job! To Stan's comment about the oil pump, keep in mind that there wil be more internal fluid resistance within the system, so your pump will be working a little harder, but it's all about at sump level so it shouldn't be a big deal (Porsche 911's have been doing this for decades with no problems other than the occasional leak).

Now, to the climate question, and why I am asking, but it's in two parts: Regardless of climate, I would double-clamp all hose ends on the barbed fittings. You probably went the cost-effective way with your hoses (Stainless with AN fittings would have cost a small fortune to do what you did) but there could still be a lot of hose pressure in the system on cold days, so double-clamping them doesn't cost much and is just good insurance.

That brings us to climate; if you live where it might drop below 50 degrees F anytime during driving/engine-running season, there is a potential for your system/hoses to see 200 - 300 psi running through them at start-up, when the oil is cold and thick. WAY up there for those hoses and fittings. If you pull the full-flow oil right off of the cover of the oil pump, then this can be safely minimized by getting a Berg pressure-limiting oil pump cover. THAT will keep you at 125 psi or below.

If, on the other hand, your engine is NOT full-flowed (look here to see what I mean by "Full Flowed"> ( http://www.speedstershop.com/viewtopic.php?t=349 ) and Bernie sold you his special adapter to replace your stock VW cooler with hose fittings so that you only run with the external coolers, don't worry about pressure, as the pressure limiting valve inside the engine will hold you under 125 psi automatically.

Good luck, and you're doing nice work on the frame!!

Gordon

Wow! Now thats some cooling set-up! Nice rack/pinion also. What frame are you using?
Oops: I see it's a Metal/Craft frame.

John, from experience, (my engines and customer engines) that mesh screen on your fan shroud causes resistance, remove it and temp's will lower a bit and power will increase.

Those screens became popular with open engine dunebuggies to prevent foolish people from inserting their finger and retracting a bloody stump and from trash entering the fan air intake hole.

Gordon, thanks for the comments. I will double clamp as you suggest. Unfortunately, the lines ARE long because it's a long trip from the back to the front where I was hoping max cooling might be achieved. Who knows! Although I live in Missouri, I'm only here for the summer when the temps are in the 80's and 90's (and 100's)...so the car is a warm weather driver. At my age, I have tired of the freezing winters and chopping ice for livestock to get to water, so I spend winters in Florida. And you're correct, Bernie left me little choice but to use the external coolers; however, it seems to be a hardy little engine.

I keep my "other" speedster in Florida.

Oh my God! That '59 is absolutely flawless!! My favorite!!

Wow! That '59 is one heck of a "Babe Magnet"!!

Yeah, Bernie was really big on that cooling set-up. I bought it, too, and then spent a few years getting around to finishing the engine and during that time decided to go back to stock cooling with an additional external cooler.

Either way, you should be OK.

BTW: We abandon the cold and snow and Ice to South Carolina in Winter. Haven't yet gotten a car on both ends, but I'm getting closer....

gn

Ricardo, for what it's worth, I purchased that Impala in April 1959. It was my first new car. We've been together longer than anyone else in my life, except my brother and sister. It is dead stock.

Gordon,

Thanks for sharing -- a lot of excellent history here. I think maybe I might end up in your spot: "stock cooling" + the external fan hooked on, w/ thermostat, etc. Initially, I'll just see how "spirited" I really am.

John: I adore that very clean Chevy, but not nearly so much as those hot babes. Oh, you thought they were after your hot bod? Sorry . . . Congrats on what is clearly a very rewarding love affair -- w/ the car, that is.

Terry: Cool suggestion about the pop-up lid thingy. I would not be against running like that, if the temp gage showed I might need to. This degree of tin-knocking may be well within my abilities, dog-ears or no. Thanks for the tip -- and all the other good ideas.

The two books mentioned sound like good reading. Wonder if there is any way these are still available. Suppose a quick look at Amazon/e-bay might show that. Deep in a box somewhere in my basement, there very well may be one or the other of these, dating back to my days with original coupes (seems I remember a soft cover item, sort of yellow cover; hmmm.) I know I had a book or two about how to care/feed, but can't recollect who wrote 'em at all. Might be worth a little hunting to find out.

Speaking of feeding: The business about what oil to use is also very high on the list of items I notice eliciting strong (and varied) opinions. This business about trace amts of zinc or whatnot, is something I understand, but how important it is, and if this additive is or is not in any modern oils, and if so which ones, is something I have not sorted out yet. I'm guessing this could be a whole new thread. Probably has already been run -- I'll Search.

It's cool when you hit a nerve on the SOC Forum and all the shade tree experts come out with what they know.

Kelly-

There's one more thing I'm not sure has been made clear. When Gordon is talking about a "stock VW doghouse shroud" he's not talking about the aftermarket 36 hp dog-house that looks stock but isn't. The shrouds on 99% of the engines sold by various builders (the one to be installed on your car) are modified replicas of the 36 hp shrouds installed on older (smaller) engines, with the wider fan and bigger oil cooler used on 1600 cc engines.

The stock VW shroud Gordon is talking is a German piece that has been out of production for years. It looks wider, flatter across the top, and not at all like the '50s Porsche shroud. It's hard to locate one in good condition, and is not cheap. But.... it works.

That's not to say your shroud will not work-- it will. But.... you'll end up buying a welded/balanced fan, overdriving the fan with a 356 pulley, and adding a remote oil cooler set-up. This stuff helps a lot in the absence of stock VW tin, or a DTM.

And one more thing about the DTM. I'm wondering what John Steele is basing his "over-rated" opinions on-- I've had both the 36 hp shroud, and the DTM. The DTM works-- Jake Raby can be a shameless self-promoter, and more than a bit ego-centric... but the shroud works. I can run in 100 deg weather with my set-up and not have to do anything to the deck-lid.

I know what you are going through, since I had a car built by John Steele in 2002. John is going to put what John wants to put in the car. I'm sure the 2332 case is full-flowed, which will make fixing the temperature problem you are going to have a lot easier. Good luck.