Oil coolers--What Berg says! m

That would be worth the price of a plane ticket back there! I love these types of shenanigans.

This part would attach to the fuse:

 

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/qus/qus7024.htm

 

And a controller:

 

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/qus/qus7510.htm

 

The controller contains a battery, two long leads with alligator clips, and a battery source.  Tape the igniter to the fuse, attach the alligator clips to the ends of the igniter, run the wires back into the cockpit of the rocket, I mean the Speedster, and after reaching the appropriate speed press the launch button.  The model rocket stuff can be bought at any hobby shop that sells model rocketry supplies.

 

I'd put everything in some type of container to keep any flames contained but you'd know more about those smoke bombs than me.

This is what I'm talking about:

 

How to make a smoke bomb - this is almost military grade:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xctC0KeZV9s

 

Click here to see it:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...9s&v=v356UzftCEo

 

 

I went out and did the manometer test in the area in front of the rear wheels today. The results are in a new post named Manometer test Results. kind of interesting...Bruce

Model rockets, engines, igniters, and launch controls are available in hobby shops and some toy stores. I'd put the smoke-bomb in a ceramic bowl secured in the engine compartment. Wrap the fuse around the igniter and extend the wire to the driver's seat. Put a Gopro on your rear deck and have at it....

I placed  a second 4 inch round hole on the left inner fender and here are my findings.The engine runs smoother and has more power (coincidence or wishful thinking?) Here is my theory-when we adjust the carbs the decklid is open, the car is standing still so there is no negative pressure and we don't race the engine that long so there of plenty of air. To drive we close the decklid and cut off some air supply and perhaps the forward motion creates negative pressure so now the engine is running rich. My gas mileage has  increased since I added the two openings-I forgot to reset the odometer so I don't know by how much yet.

I attached the previously unreadable Vintage oil temp gauge to the sump and it now reads well-when the VDO gauge reads 195 it reads in the middle.

So I don't think my tub was ever overheating-Gordon explained where you place the sensor is key. Last year when I was inquiring about an external oil cooler Al said my 1914 cc shouldn't need it and to find the problem.  He was obviously right. Thanks guys.

Joel

 

So, back to oil coolers and Berg, etc. This is what I believe:

 

The oiling system in a Type 1 is a Rube Goldberg arrangement of compromises, which, when all the components are kept intact, usually works. Most of the time. Sort of. Unless you use an oil that's too heavy. Or too light. Or if the pistons get stuck. 

The stock cooling system too, works great(ish). Unless the flaps stick closed. Or the thermostat fails. Or the linkage gets rusty and worn. 

It's popular to enshrine the vaunted "VW engineer/god" as the final word on anything. Never mind they were working in the 1930s with a commission from the Fuhrer to "keep it cheap". They really did a great job with their slide rules in a total absence of decent fuels, lubricants, or materials. But when we fast forward 80 years, and to my non-German-worshiping eye: a LOT of problems arise from the upright oil cooler, using pressure, etc. to bypass, even while circulating air over the cooler core constantly. It works, but there are better ways of getting this done. 

The Type 1 set-up is ingenious given the alpine climate, straight-weight oils, and 30-ish horsepower it was designed to support. But the lip-service paid to it in modern high performance applications is really kind've silly. It's inadequate and antiquated, no matter how smart the guys who designed it were. 

There are guys out there running nothing but a Type 4 cooler in their modified doghouse with 2L+ engines, and advocating that we all do the same. But they never live in Barstow, and they don't run 10:1 compression. Everybody else uses a remote cooler to supplement the ridiculous one on the case. 

If we could all free our minds, we could just look at what Porsche did as they continued to develop their air-cooled engine for 20+ years after VW moved on to other things (no... Brazilian/Mexican Beetles don't count- they received the little engineering crumbs that feel from Mr. Piech's table). 

Porsche air-cooled 6s control oil temperature by (gasp) bypassing the cooler ON TEMPERATURE! (I know, right?). This idea is a nifty little bit of kit that pretty much every schmo who bolts on an EMPI "Mesa cooler" utilizes (for the $75 cooler OUTSIDE the engine, not the sacred one ON the engine). Porsches also control pressure by means of a PRESSURE RELIEF (again: who thought of that?). That'd be pretty high-tech, if you couldn't relieve pressure by means of about 20 different aftermarket pieces on a Type 1 for less than the cost of a tank of gas. 

So, given that the average savvy hi-po V-dubber carefully full-flows his case, adds an external filter, probably adds a bypass thermostat and fan switch, and may add a pressure relief oil filter base or pump cover... what's the oil cooler (with the cheesy seals and funky bypass pistons) still doing on his case? 

In a word: shrouds. All the good ones use the case-mounted cooler, so on it stays-- along with the weird-Al stuff (flaps, bellows thermostats, bypass pistons, etc.) that make it work better. 

If we could free our minds, we'd just add oil thermostats and reliefs external to the case, get rid of the case mounted mess, and concentrate on designing a shroud that has one job- to cool all 4 cylinders evenly, with no stolen air for a cooler or cabin heat. Why nobody is doing this escapes me. 

If 90% of engine wear occurs before the engine warms up (something I think could be largely fixed with a pre-lube system), that's got to be an oil thing. It seems like the smart money would be spent applying ourselves to getting the oil to come up to temperature by not cooling it, rather than relying on a rickety flap, stat, and linkage assembly to heat up the heads and therefore make the oil hotter faster, so it can thin out and start flowing through the case-mounted cooler. 

But where would be the fun in that? We couldn't go on and on and on about the finer points of relief springs and pistons, flaps, what to do about the lack of heater boxes, etc.

 

People LOVE "data". The German engineers were really, really smart, and they had data by the bucketloads- for 35 hp engines operating in alpine climates. 

Gene Berg had no data, but observed things and intuited what worked. He was wicked-smart, and stuff built to his recommendations just flat-out works, for a long, long time. 

Jake Raby was a godsend to this hobby. He acquired data like a factory operation. Before he lost confidence in the VW community, he used to share it to one degree or another. After a while he stopped being so free with information on a public forum, as he was concerned about the east Asian disregard for property-rights. He stopped sharing even with customers at the end of his run in the air-cooled arena. At this point, he knows a freak-load about what works, and what is folklore and common-knowledge- but he's done with us. Unless somebody steps up and buys his data, it'll probably die with him. Pity. 

Regardless- none of us (as hobbyists) have any "data" for what we think. We believe what we believe based on what has worked for us.

For me at least Stan's insightful historical analysis boils down to avoiding (minimizing) "90 percent of engine wear occurs when starting..."

 

What if the oil were preheated by rigging a 100watt incandescent work light under the sump (after some dip-stick temperature testing to determine the length of time required)...then pull the coil lead for a few non-firing engine revolutions as a pre lube procedure?   

Stan, you've just given a great argument for going with a Subaru powerplant.

 

One of the reasons (maybe the main one) that Jake got out of type 1 engine building was the poor quality of the engine parts. 

 

The type 1s air cooled engine's future look bleak and I think it will eventually disappear, except for a small dedicated group of VW owners who want a classic (authentic) VW, and are willing to put up with its shortcomings.

 

I suspect that in 10 years 75% or more of all new speedsters built will be powered by water cooled engines.  I know that if I was having a new speedster built I wouldn't even consider going air cooled.  I also think that many of the people who purchase these cars and, out of frustration, sell them in a couple of years with very low mileage, would still be driving them if they had a modern water cooled, fuel injected power plant.

 

 

 

 

Joel- Glad to hear things are working better! Could you post a pic so we can see where exactly you cut the hole? I'm guessing it's right near the air cleaner? Are you finding it seems to run better around town and on the highway, or more one than the other? And my apologies if you've provided this info before- does your car have a hole in the firewall, and if yes, how big is it? 

 

 I don't know about preheating the oil before starting, but you can buy a pre-oiler- it's called an Accusump, 

 

http://www.accusump.com/accusump_units.html

 

it plumbs into the oil return line after the filter (and cooler, for those that have one), and you can use it to gain oil pressure before starting your engine. I've also read that most engine wear occurs at start up (and Stan did mention this as well), so this sounds like a good idea.

 

PS- I don't know how effective the light bulb would be, Carl, but if you watch the Samba classifieds, every once in a while a VW block heater comes up for sale. I do know friends had to light a fire under the engine in their truck to warm it up so the oil would thin out enough so it would turn over and start. It was 30 or 35 below in the dead of winter... 

Stan, a most interesting post.

 

If 90% of engine wear occurs before the engine warms up (something I think could be largely fixed with a pre-lube system), that's got to be an oil thing. It seems like the smart money would be spent applying ourselves to getting the oil to come up to temperature by not cooling it, rather than relying on a rickety flap, stat, and linkage assembly to heat up the heads and therefore make the oil hotter faster, so it can thin out and start flowing through the case-mounted cooler. 

 

Any thoughts on engaging the starter while bypassing the coil in an attempt to get oil to the rings prior to ignition?

Stan, absolutely spot-on, awesome post. I wish I had the words like that.

So, what you're saying is, do the oil system like me: full flow, Berg pressure relief cover, factory cooler blockoff, external cooler, fan with thermostat, 1 quart Ford style filter, and thermostatic valve for cooler.

I plan to get myself 4 aircraft CHT thermocouples, and tweak and modify the shroud until I get it even. Or maybe just do a flat fan, all 4 get the same.

Wish me luck.

I know that in the bitter cold winters on the Eastern front the Luftwaffe wrapped their aircraft engines in tarps that encased a tub of burning oil...and during the bitter cold '44 -'45 winter on the Western front American vehicles transporting supplies to troops  the engines were kept running constantly. In Alaska coin operated apparatus resembling  parking meters provides 'heating dip-sticks' to keep the oil temperature up.

 

I like the idea of pulling the coil as I suggested and 'pre-lubbing' with a few non firing revolutions to reduce wear.      

Stan great post.  

Going back a while now I remember that the accusump style of pre oiling is essential to prevent start up wear. You need of course as well to have oil that flows. Living in -42degree weather for 10 years of my life, I can tell you that turning over a stiff oil engine ie 5w30 at minus 40 is not going to do it, as the oil does not flow, so even without a spark you are certainly grinding the engine due to lack of lube so I would go with an accusump that injects oil and lubes first while you turn the key to the on position then you can start it. It's no wonder that we are now at zeroW20 oils, as engineers want the oil to flow everywhere. My 2110 in the fall always ran great compared to the hot summer days on my first IM. Come to think of it it was probably one of the nicest engine tranny combo I think that Henry put together. YOu know the new engine and tranny rebuilder just got it bang on and it was a really quiet tranny and engine combo. On my new build I did go with a subie for all the reasons Stan quoted Ray

We would use a pre start electric oil primer pump on our B Econo dragster  ( BTW best run was 7.22 @188.75 mph)

So, I'm dry-sumped, use a Jaycee pressure bypass oil filter base and a Mocal oil thermostat running to a 96 plate cooler. I've got an Accusump for pre-lubing. I have the Hoover mods, and I use 911 oil-squirters on the under-side of the pistons. The piston crowns and combustion chambers (and exhaust ports) have thermal coatings.

I'm still using a Type 4 cooler on the case, because I'm using a DTM shroud. I'd happily eliminate the stock cooler, and just use the (much more controllable) remote oil cooler, but I'd probably need more thermal capacity than I've got to feel comfortable in the desert (I live 1500 miles from a desert, btw, but I've driven to the west coast in this car twice), and the DTM is set-up for the air to be robbed for the cooler. 

FWIW, I monitor all 4 cylinders for head temp. The temps never vary more than about 10* cylinder to cylinder. No flaps. No thermostat. I've got a bus with a 2110 with all that stuff- it doesn't cool as well. 

All sounds very cool. I'd like to follow along!

Stan, pictures for us mere mortals, at your convenience. BTW,... Hoover mods, is  that the fellow that drills out his blocks. for improved oil circulation, and...cooler oil temps?  Too many cajones, above my pay grade!

 

art 

While we're on the topic of oil coolers etc. is an oil cooler bypass valve really necessary or can I justvrun the oil through cooler all the time with a thermal switch to turn on the fan when necessary?  The cooler is not mounted where air flows overvit all the time.  It will be mounted parallel to the road just inside the left rear frame. 

As I understand it, the bypass is necessary or else the motor may never reach operating temperature. It'll basically be likeit never warmed up.

Yes. You need one.

Will you be starting and operating the car at ambient temps under 45°F?

 

If so, it might never warm up above 180° or so.  Some people on here might cringe at the low temp your engine might be operating at.  I'm sure they would cringe at some of the things I do, but WTF?

 

OTOH, stock VW's were operated for decades just like that, because we would go out in horribly cold weather, start it up and drive away - Absolutly no clue what temp the engine was operating at...Didn't even have a temp gauge!  And you know what?  The engine survived.  For over 100,000 miles.  Without DTM shrouds, impinged oil squirters, dry sumps, CHT gauges and a lot of other really cool stuff.  

 

Back then, though, the entire car cost less than one half of what a lot of us are spending on the engine alone.  The entire car was thought of as "basic transportation" and didn't cost a lot.  The engine put out 36-65 hp, compared to our 85-140+ hp.  All that extra hp makes heat.

 

What Stan is doing on his builds is wonderful, and I really mean that.  What he has done is taken a basic transportation VW Beetle engine and "Porsche-ized" it with all of the stuff a modern 993 engine has and all of it is good.  Is it necessary?  It is for Stan and a few others of us doing the same thing, and on those high performance engines, it IS necessary.  Besides, for Stan and a few others, building an engine like that is where they find their fun......Absolutely nothing wrong with that.  Some of us add "bling", some of us have kick-ass suspensions, some have knock-out interiors and some of us build awesome engines - whatever floats your boat.

 

For the rest of us, we probably won't go that route, but I hope we might still have some worry-free fun driving out little cars - kinda like MUSBJIM!

 

Maybe that's why I don't have a temp gauge with numbers on it.......or an oil pressure gauge at all (just an idiot light)....or  a cylinder head temp gauge......But I do have an air/fuel mixture gauge which has proven handy from time to time.

 

Anyway, this has been an aimless ramble (I'm supposed to be in vacation, after all) and I hope that you guys don't get all twisted around your thought processes about this - it's just the opinion of some old guy at Cape Cod for a week, wearing my pink shirt, my turquoise shorts and my belt with little whales on it, just trying to fit in at the Hyannis Yacht club.

Boy, if we all had listened to Stan, nobody would be brave enough to even try VW power! The fact is guys, VW sold over 20 (26? 28?) million bugs (and more type 1 based engines in type 3's and earlier buses) worldwide, in every climate on the planet, and the oiling and cooling systems worked. Yes there were shortcomings, as this was (as Stan also pointed out) an economy car for the masses built to a price point, afterall. But these engines kept on running with a lot of even the 25 and 36 hp engines hitting the 100,000 (and even the 150,000) km mark, which was virtually unheard of at the time. Yeah, we ask a lot more of these engines now, making them bigger and modifiying them for 2, 3, and even 4 times the hp of a stock 1600 and insisting on driving them like the good ol' reliable 1600 they come from. 

 

Automotive technology has changed incredibly since Dr. Porsche built the first prototype flat 4 in the early 1930's, and has even made some great strides in the almost 60 years since the 1600 with it's then innovative doghouse shroud, dual port heads and dual relief case were introduced, but our platform has since been long left behind. This leaves us to figure some things out for ourselves, which means that if we still want to play with these things and wring more power out of them, we're the engineers in charge. And Stan is the perfect example; he's probably spent more money than almost anyone else here on his own personal r&d journey. His almost 200hp 2332?cc engine is as reliable as a lot of 1915's.

 

While Stan and I sometimes disagree on details (like the quote at the top of this post), he's driven across your country twice with big engines in his tub, and that's something a lot of guys with high powered Vdubs wouldn't dream of even contemplating.

 

You have my respect, Stan, but that quote; really?! Stop scaring guys!

 

Robert- What Ted and Gordon said; you need an oil thermostat (or cooler bypass valve, or whatever you want to call it). It aids in quicker warm ups, as the guys said, and without it, for a good part of the year your engine won't ever reach proper operating temps, and that causes premature engine wear. 

My intent was not to scare anybody away from the ACVW- I love the almost limitless possibilities the platform presents. I also agree with Gordon and Al more than it might seem at first glance. What the VW engineers did 4 generations ago was functional and ingenious. I will, however, stand by my contention that the oiling system is odd and antiquated.

 

I'm clearly out here in left field, committed enough to this platform that I'm ready to be committed (in the other sense of the word). Obviously, my engine represents a ridiculous extreme. But almost everybody improves on their oiling system in one way or another. That's where discussions on the matter really start to heat up. Gene Berg and his disciples would have everybody keep their compression under 8:1, so the oil doesn't heat up in the first place. Regardless, most speedsters (as delivered) have engines that need some help in the cooling department. Adding flaps and a stock (or Type 4) oil cooler and OG VW shrouds probably won't make very much difference. Adding a remote oil cooler will.

 

But if you need to add a remote cooler, you need to add a bypass thermostat, and a fan controlled by a thermostat. Once you do that, the weird bypass piston arrangement becomes even weirder. It works- but we're all helping it out with little thises and thats. Gene Berg would not have approved.

 

 

To wit:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You guys have my head spinning!

 

Here I am at five forty five in the morning, with a cup of rewarmed last night's coffee, going over this 'Berg Thread'  trying to figure out what I know and don't know...what I need or don't need. And it dawns on me that what I'm REALLY after is Musbjim's life!!!!

 

I want to wake up in the morning and wonder where my VS is going to take me today. I want to rack up thousands and thousands of miles in it without a care in the world as to what Berg said!...In the years I've been on this forum I've never, ever, heard Jim utter a word or worry about his speedster's mechanical performance.     

 

 

 

 

As Joel says, Carl, "Just drive it!!"

Joel what did you use to cut the 4"holes, and did you cut from the outside or inside? Thanks!

Drive it! That is an understatement, my car is not a garage queen, no bowing allowed! It is driven as much as possible, even if it does looks absolutely awesome in my garage  Ray

No need for head spinning so early in the morning, Carl. A full flow filter (a good idea for any aircooled engine), an extra cooler/thermostat/fan if it's stroked (so anything over 1900cc's or 2 liters) and either a deep sump and/or an Accusump (I like the Accusump because then you can pre-lube the engine before starting), enough air into the engine compartment and away you go. 

Al, except for the Accusump I've got all that (thanks to the PO)

But... I still want Jim's life!

 

Maybe it's a 'right seater' that I need?

 

You're on your own there, bud! You've gotta get out there...

Hey Dutch,

I had to cut the holes from the inside because there wasn't enough clearance on the outside(under the fenders) for my 3/8 drill and the hole saw. All I had to do is detach the heater tubings from the shrould and push them out of the way. I used a 4 inch hole saw that i found in my father's basement when I was cleaning it out a few years ago. I then had to use a grinding wheel to get the hole to 4 and 3/8.Cover the engine with a sheet and wear a mask and goggles because the fiberglass produces a lot of dust. Tape the wires on the left side out of the way-I did and still caught some with the saw.

My next step is to install 1/2 in. screen over the holes from the outside like Vintage did on the hole they made in the firewall.

Joel

Carl wrote: "I still want Jim's life!"

 

Well, Jim's life is pretty full, right now, but he may have an opening for an add-on 2'nd mate, currently filled by his faithful Corgi seadog.  

 

Can you swim? 

 

Joel, we like pictures! Have any?

I figured you probably used a hole saw but wanted to double check. I do not have heater boxes so no tubing yo move out of the way, but i will definitely cover the motor and watch the wiring. I have screening I bought at Home Depot hardware store to cover the hole behind the fan in the firewall. Thanks for the detail on your approach, it's much appreciated Joel. Hopefully it will help my 1915cc run cooler as well, I am trying to stay away from having to add an external cooler.

Crhemi,

Go to page  3 of this thread-I posted pictures on July 29.

Joel

i meant July 22

I missed those pics as well, Joel. Thanks. Al

Hi Guys, just a question with this "cooling" and oil reaching temperature in mind. These engines worked in the military desert vehicles. How did they keep cool ?

Quality German parts and very low horsepower.