Oil leak - the saga continues

Ok, guys, I've been fighting an oil leak from the top of my case somewhere in the area of the distributor for some time. First thought was that the distributor O-ring had failed. Turns out it WAS dry, hard, and shriveled, but replacing it didn't really help. Next I figured I'd eliminate any case overpressure issue by adding a fancy breather setup. I have now added a bugpack breather modified to have two small air filter things on it, as well as connections to each main air filter and each valve cover - still leaking. Yesterday I decided to eliminate the possibility of simply having too much oil and I changed the oil (from Castrol GTX High Mileage to Royal Purple) and only added 3 1/2 qts. Some background - I have a Setrab remote cooler and remote oil filter, plus all of the necessary plumbing. There's no way it all drains when I do an oil change, so I assumed it might have been over-filled at the last one. Still leaks. I've since upped the oil by another 1/2 qt, and it's measuring just a little low on the dipstick, so I may leave the level as is. The engine's a CB Performance 1915 built by Pat Downs himself.

It's not a big problem, just messy and a little smelly when hot. I'd still like to fix it, though. It could be the base of the oil filler neck, but most of the oil appears on the other side of the case split. I don't think it's coming out of the distributor breather holes. It seems to be getting flung up against the base of the driver's side engine tin, so it looks (falsely, I've verified) that it could be coming from the internal oil cooler. Any other ideas?

Lane,

Sometimes it needs to get a bit messy to locate the leak...clean the motor , sprinkle a light coating of baby powder everywhere you can get to...short trip down the block and return checking for the first sign of oil. ~Alan

Alan: Baby powder! That's what I use to...oh never mind.

Lane: I'd love to take a stab at it. Maybe if Alan could haul it here for a few weeks I know I could find it. But please, before it gets cold. :)

~WB

So come down to the Tail of the Dragon in a few weeks. I'll bring plenty of tools :-)

Wow! That's like dropping the gauntlet! No kidding guys, I think you would have a great time down here in the mountains. Just do it!
Hoss

I'll have my trailer, so we can use it as a lift to look at the bottom, and I'm sure there must be a pharmacy in Townshend to get baby powder at, and I ALWAYS have a whole passle of tools, so we should be all set.

Wow! Just like Carlisle!! Let's pull Jim's engine to make sure the clutch is OK, too!

(ok, maybe not........)

gn

Seriously, Lane (ok, then....semi-seriously) clean up the engine as best you can, then sprinkle the baby powder around where you think it's leaking, and then start'er up, but don't leave the driveway - just let it idle for a few minutes. You can even leave the engine lid open and watch what's going on to see if the leak is visible in the talcum powder. If that doesn't work, then go for a short ride 1-2 miles at most, and rev it as you normally do going through the gears, then jump out and see what you see back there.

Let us know how you make out.....I have a theory, but I'll wait to see what the powder shows.

gn

Make sure it is not coming from the alt/generator stand or pulley.

I heard that you can use the white foot spray powder as well.

I don't think he said his engine had athelete's foot -- LOL.

Meanwhile, please check the thread Cory posted recently about my visit to Jim Sartwell's place. In there you will find some discussion of MY oil leak saga. Which sounds in some respects, just like yours. I don't have all the sump and oil cooler business you have, but the basic symptoms are strikingly similar. Cutting to the chase, I am convinced my leak is from the case itself, due to most likely a faulty casting. Such is not unheard of. Although I have not got a good fix in yet, I am thinking I can achieve this using an epoxy patch. The oil is just oozing, so no big pressure working at the surface here. I did not use the talc method to diagnose, although that was next on my list of things to try. Instead, I cleaned the area around the sending units and dist'r really good, fired the thing up, and let it idle while I looked at all the hard spots around the sending units w/ a magnifying mirror. In a few minutes, it was plain to see the oil oozing right out of the aluminum case. I was really upset to see this, but have come to believe since that it may be fixable w/out much trouble.

Keep us posted.

Yeah, I hear ya. If it's the case, I'll try the JB Weld thing. If that doesn't work, I'll probably just have to live with it. Meanwhile I still have my fingers crossed.

Lane and Kelly, the thinking currently on Kelly's engine is that the oil cooler outlet and inlet line holes are right there on the top, left ear off the case. If the cooler lines are over-tightened, the base of the tab they grow off of develops a hairline crack or a separation that allows oil to seep inside from one very small pocket of void space to the next along a fissure.
Jim described his theory to me last night, pointing out where he thought the leak would turn out to be, and it makes sense. The internal bore that runs from the front to the rear of the case is just inside that lobe, and the return flow line inside (also just a tunnel in the case) is right down from the return line threaded hole.
If Jim's suspicions are correct, someone overtightened the sending or the return line, weakened the metal but not enough to reveal a vein or a crack, and the casting aeration is now a pathway for the oil, which is connecting the dots inside and sweating out the pores in the case itself.
If that's so, there's no pressure associated with the weeping, and the patch ought to hold forever.
The one he described to Kelly as having squirted oil was a hole in the case, albeit a pinhole, from the sending side of the lobe. Y'all's don't seem to squirt, so he recommends putting the epoxy (in whatever form) on the case after the talc-locator method is used.
Kelly, he's set some aluminum bonding material aside for your engine. If that works, I'll bring some to the Dragon run for Lane.
It's called Aluminum Stick, or something like that.
He's got some PC-7 set aside, too.

These group fixes are great! Thanks!

Ok, I've done the baby powder thing, and the results are... odd.

The end of the bolt holding the case halves together that is visible near the distributor is a little wet, although it's possible that it's residual oil or brake parts cleaner that I used to make sure I had clean surfaces. I don't really suspect it. What I really found more interesting is that the top of the case between the distributor and the shroud appears to be oily from no visible leak. It started when I first looked right where the case butts up to the tin over the driver's side cylinders next to the shroud. After driving another mile or two, the oily area spread toward the distributor and toward the case split. I also noticed some oil oozing out from under the tin below the sending unit, and eventually running down into the area where the crank pulley sits.

It appears to require some revs to get it going, because just sitting in the garage didn't do anything, even when revving the engine. I had to drive about 1 1/2 miles before any was visible.

Some of this seems to point back to a leaky O-ring on the internal cooler, but when I had the shroud removed last year it was clean as a whistle in there. I suspect that's still the case.

Ideas? Could it be where the cylinders met the case? If so, how would the oil work its way up on the case where it is, though? I'm stumped (no offense, Bruce ;-)

Lane: Always remember that oil always flows downhill, BUT you have some forced air from the fan possibly pushing it around, too.

What if that case bolt is leaking and dripping down onto the cse near the disti??.......just a thought, but it should run downhill from the point where the drip hits the case.

I suspect one or more of three things, more or less in this order:

1. A case seam leak up at the seam along the top, which would explain the wetness between the distributor and the shroud, especially with the wetness on the case bolt near the distributor. These leak more when rev'ed up, because of the additional oil splashing inside the case, especially up to the top of the case. This can often be cured by torquing the upper case bolts another 10-15 ft. lbs or so over "nomal" torque. I always goop up the bolt heads, washers and nuts with RTV Blue, too, just to make sure they don't leak. At worst, that should slow it down a lot so you can avoid splitting the case 8>(
This type of leak is always a weepy kind of thing, that gets worse over short time and higher revs, but doesn't seem to flow any worse over time (it just weeps forever unless fixed) and spreads over the top of the case, sometimes around the cylinder(s) and down the case. It usually doesn't go outward beyond the first fin of the barrels.

2. A leak where the cylinder meets the case, especially if there are spacers in there. This can be cured without pulling the engine, but you have to remove so much peripheral stuff that the hour to pull it is well worth it. You then pull the heads, run each barrel out 1" or so in turn (without letting the piston rings get exposed), goop up the barrel base and spacer with Permatex blue and put'm back together (I do both on one side at a time, then put the head right on to hold it together while doing the other side). Remember to do both sides of the spacer, the case and the barrel to make sure there are no leaks. Try to keep the permatex outside of the case (obviously) but make sure all mating parts are nicely wet.
This leak may push rearward to the space between the distributor and the shroud, because the fan is pushing the oil downward around and past the barrel(s) and possibly out under the tins. Not unheard of to see it out by the disti. You can tell if it is one or more than one cylinder leaking by looking up from below.

3. There might still be a leak at the oil tower o-rings, but that should manifest itself really quickly, whether you are reving it up or not (it's under pressure) and the area around the oil tower mounting plate should be wet. Just remember that the fan is going to exaggerate the oil flow across the engine from where-ever it's leaking, making it come out in sometimes unxpected places, simply because it's being pushed by air flow.

Hopefully others will offer other ideas, too....

gn

It sounds more like #2, partly because the oil never actually gets up to the case seam, and partyly because there's oil on the fins on the underside of the engine. I'm not really comfortable with pulling engine, etc., for an oil leak, but I'll think about it - assuming we don't find an easier solution.

Chiming in w/ my $0.02 worth of experience. As review, I am getting oil all over the tins just under the dist'r and around the oil sending units screwed into the case near here. Initially, suspected high case pressures (new engine) sending oil up the inside of the dist'r, as there was oil dripping out the weep holes on the bottom of dist'r. Recently, there has been no oil noticed at the dist'r bottom, but still much oil mess on the tins below. Root cause of oil leak: boss where oil sending units thread in is cracked, likely due to over-tightening or faulty case in this location, or the hole was drilled off center just a tad, leaving the wall too thin. In any case, there is a crack here and the oil is leaking out. Fix: clean up the area real good, file it down a bit to reveal fresh metal, apply two-part epoxy paste to stem the tide. I am here to report that said fix was applied last night, and today the area in question is dry as a bone. Kinda the end of the story, I hope. I am told this sort of epoxy material used this way will last a long time; I hope so.

All this talk of leaking case bolts has got me more than a little concerned. I am getting some oil tracks on the exhaust pipes way over on passenger side, well away from the oil coming from the sending units. I am suspecting valve covers, and maybe understanding that I really do need to add a breather box. Would hate to think I had a head bolt leak. Gordon makes light of it, but sounds like a true PITA to deal with to me.

Gordon touched on this, but it's easy enough to forget. When your engine isn't running, you're looking at oil in places where it shouldn't logically be. When it is running, there's a big old fan pushing from the passenger's side clockwise to the driver's side.
I'm willing to bet that in both cases (pardon the pun) there's oil being scooped up by the fan's airflow and smattered right into the tins on the driver's sides of your fan shrouds. That oil doesn't manifest itself right away, except for the occasional drip into the tins, so much as it shows up readily when you have a look under the car before you take off down the road with it the next time.
Kelly, I think you'll find that you're fixed. Lane, I think you're going to find that the porous part of your case is someplace in the driver's side rear quarter of the top half of the case. If it's as easy as removing the engine from the car and having a look, but you're operational right now, you won't be hurting anything by waiting until the rainy season to have it removed and looked at.
Heck, you've got at least fifty percent of the SOC engine/mechanical brain trust right there in town.
Smile. YOUR car is working. :)

Uh-oh. That last line sounds ominous. at last report last week, Hoopty was in for a new exhaust header, and tranny seals, plus whatever else was found. Sounds like else may have been found. Cory: I hope the rework is going well.

PS: I had another fun trip to the local Porsche dealer today to pick up my little bottles of touch-up paint. The first trip was to order and pay for these. Was a hoot to drive up and park at the front door. Collected several of the staff out in the fine sunshine to admire the paint, and other things. Fooled some of the staff, but not all. I offered to trade my Classic beauty for one of their Carrera S 911s, even up. They politely declined -- shucks. You know, that car is trully awesome, and w/ 3.8 L and all the rest, must be something to drive around, but you know what else? You look inside the thing, and it looks just like a Toyota, or a Lexus, or a Honda, or even my Mazda. Tall center console taking up half the room in there, and all the ergonomic buttons, switches, levers and such, all done more or less the same with all the same international symbols. And all in shades of black and gray -- yawn -- so what else is new?

Kelly, your saga sounds almost exactly like mine. I hope the outcome is just as easy. I've tried the baby powder trick as reported, and the results are somehwat inconclusive. I also wrapped the sending unit in aluminum foil and held it on with a zip-tie. The leak seemed unchanged, which would point to the case-barrel possibility, but I think I need to retry.

As you said, Cory, the car is still perfectly usable, just a little messier than I like.

Lane: Bring your baby powder with you to Tenn-ah-see, and we'll see what we can find. I guess you should bring some extra oil, too... (maybe have a trailer with a few 10-gallon Gerry Cans??)

Kelley wrote: "I am getting some oil tracks on the exhaust pipes way over on passenger side, well away from the oil coming from the sending units."

That sounds like a classic valve cover leak, especially if it is leaking onto the exhaust pipe under the cylinders. If it were a jug-to-case leak, it should miss the exhaust pipe. I just put on new valve cover gaskets when I changed the oil last month (the suposedly better Cork ones) and one of them leaked. Pulled the cover and all I had was one of the, supposedly poorer, black composite gaskets, but it sealed up just fine.

gn

Further report: Second full day of ops, some rather "spirited" as they say, and not a drop of oil where it's not supposed to be. I believe the fix is in. Pics later tonight on It's Red thread.

Concerning valve covers: I use the rubber/composite gaskets, beded in red silicone. Generally a pretty good solution, as far as the gasket is concerned. But what of the VCs themselves? I have the cheapy Taiwan Al castings, that actually look pretty cool, w/ the fins and all, but I wonder. they are held by two bolts along the mid-line that screw into posts mounted to the heads, sealed by O-rings. This must be familar to all. Anyway, these tighten down only to the degree that the height of the post allows. Once you bottom out, the cover is as tight as it is ever going to get. Compare this to the old style cover held by a spring bale. the spring is tight and keeps the pressure on kinda no matter what. Seems a good idea, and over the years literally millions of cars were run this way. So why not that? Answer, recently heard: you can't find any of these old covers and springs any more, only cheap-o imitations that are made w/ sh-- materials that do not actually work -- NOT like the good old German spring steel and stampings. So, what does the brain trust here know about all of this? Can you get worthy steel and spring bale covers? If so, how so? Are there after market cast Al covers that actually work like they should? Casting about for a solution here.

C.B. Perf. offers good OEM type covers and bails, as well as the aluminum types......

Leon C.

I've got the old spring types on my (CB bult) engine, and they don't appear to be leaking.

Many a salvage yard (if they're still running) have those older, German covers and bales kicking around.

Of course, you have to get there quick before the EPA closes them down.

On the cast (CB) version, I change the "O-Rings" whenever I open 'em up. Throw away the old "O" rings, and make new ones from a 1/4" length of 5/16" ID fuel line hose. When you tighten the bolt, they'll squeeze both in and out, making a tight seal so that the bolts don't leak.
I have used both the cork and composite valve cover gaskets - see no sealing difference in either. Always grease them up with regular automotive grease (both sides) and put them on and usually they don't leak. I ALWAYS leave Carlisle with a 10-pack of those gaskets, so have plenty for the whole year.

Beware of those threaded stand-offs loosening up off of the head stud when you remove the valve cover bolts. Mine did and I eventually broke a rocker arm shaft (see saga elsewhere on this site). I now use Locktite on the standoff where it screws onto the stud in the head and tightened to 18 ft. lbs., but use NO Locktite on the valve cover bolts and just crank them up til the hose/O-ring compresses (they don't seem to loosen, ever).

Gordon: A masterful stroke on your home-made O-ring -- which would be better described as a "D" ring. I am gonna get some of that hose. And I will look at the CB bales and covers, and see what I think, plus maybe scrounge a few salvage yards for VCs. One never knows. Good tips here.

PS: Lane, you getting anywhere w/ finding/fixing your leak source?

Not really. Been consumed with some home renovations this week and felt the need to stick around the house. Taking a few half days vacation and working from home, but really didn't feel free to drive the car around trying to get the leak flowing. Buncha Brazilians installing ceramic tile in the kitchen. Took 'em two days of hard work just to remove the glued-down hardwood floor.

The last thing I tried was to block off the sending unit with foil to see if the oil was being sprayed from there. Didn't seem to be the case, but I think I need to redo it with better foil coverage to be sure. I reeeeeeally hope it's the same sort of thing you had.

Does anybody know if Haliburton Inc. is in the valve cover business???

Lane:

Instead of aluminium foil, try wrapping your sender all the way down to the base of the threaded part where it meets the case, with one of those rust-colored shop rags. You can use a tie-wrap or rbber band to hlod it on so it stays in place, then go out and blast around the neighborhod with it. Carefully unwrap it and it should show (darkened) exactly where the oil's coming from, if it's coming from the sender. Keep in mind that, occasionally, the senders leak from the wire (plastic) end, too.

gn