Oil leak question

If crankcase overfilled with oil, it will spew out the dipstick.

Thank you, but definitely not overfilled, oil was in between the lines on the stick when I changed the oil and adjusted the valves 1,000 miles ago

@NeenahSpeedster posted:

Thank you, but definitely not overfilled, oil was in between the lines on the stick when I changed the oil and adjusted the valves 1,000 miles ago

Where is it now?

It’s now on the “low” mark

In all likelihood, you're throwing oil out what would be the front (in the rear of the car) crank seal, if the Sainted German Engineers had seen fit to equip these things with a seal. There's generally nothing but some threads and hope keeping oil from puking out right there, and every VW I've ever had leaks from that spot (sand seal or not).

Were you diving in a spirited manner, or puttering down to Home Despot?

I would say on the more spirited side. I haven’t noticed this happening before this. Is there something I could tighten or change? This is my first air cooled car, so I’m just trying to acclimate to what could be normal vs alarming.

UPDATE: I just got off the phone with Greg. His estimation is because of the highway driving, I should install a breather to help with the pressure. He’s going to set me up and I’ll install when it arrives. Has anyone mentioned how fantastic Greg and Anna are at VMC? (He asked already knowing the answer….)

@NeenahSpeedster

Can you take some pictures before and after the breather is installed when you get the part?  Would like to see how it goes on as my VMC is in the works right now.

Thanks

@pkdfw I likely won’t get to it until next weekend, but I’d be happy to when it’s finished

I was composing this while you got in touch with Greg, but I'm putting this up for reference.

@NeenahSpeedster posted:

I would say on the more spirited side. I haven’t noticed this happening before this. Is there something I could tighten or change? This is my first air cooled car, so I’m just trying to acclimate to what could be normal vs alarming.

That makes perfect sense.

The engine displaces 2332 cubic centimeters - a bit over 2 liters. the crankcase was designed to hold less than 3 quarts of oil (one of the reasons the oiling system in a T1 is a joke).

Think about what is happening inside the engine. The "swept area" the pistons are covering in total is over 2.3 liters which is just a little bit less than the total oil capacity. The crankcase is tiny. Inside are pistons rising and falling with tremendous pressures (and explosions) on the top sides of them. That pressure is looking for places to escape. Pistons have rings meant to seal and keep the pressure where it's supposed to be, but every engine "leaks down". A new engine with really great ring seal will leak down 5% or less. What gets past the rings to pressurize the crankcase is called "blow-by".

A good breather system is the place to start with crankcase pressure. I have a breather tank with over 2 gallons of capacity and 1" hoses running up to it. I do this because the crankcase is so tiny that I think the place to start is by increasing its effective capacity in a meaningful way.

It might be enough, but I'm going to put up another post explaining what and why all this happens and what additional steps can be taken.

For now, good luck and happy motoring.

@Stan Galat thank you Stan! I appreciate all of it…..this is the first air cooled car I’ve ever owned - I was concerned I broke something. It sounds like between your background in the world of these motors and Greg’s help of sending me a breather box, I’ve learned more about my car than knew yesterday.

Interesting discussion.

So if it's a breather problem, why did Neenah's motor develop the need for a breather box only after 4,000 miles?  Also, would someone post a schematic or diagram of how the breather box is plumbed?

Jason

@NeenahSpeedster posted:

@pkdfw I likely won’t get to it until next weekend, but I’d be happy to when it’s finished

That'll be a good weekend project!  I've got one installed on my VMC with the 2332.  PM if you want me to send some pictures before you get started.  I'm sure there's a lot of YouTube vids for reference as well... good luck!

Here is a conversation from 2014 to yesterday about crankcase venting:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/fo...ewtopic.php?t=590785

obviously U haver never had a British car...never change the oil just add when needed.

@JasonC posted:

Interesting discussion.

So if it's a breather problem, why did Neenah's motor develop the need for a breather box only after 4,000 miles?  Also, would someone post a schematic or diagram of how the breather box is plumbed?

Jason

It always needed one. It just manifested with some spirited driving. I’m surprised anyone would build an engine that big without one. Maybe being the torque monster it’s supposed to be, Pat figured no one would rev it to the point it pushed oil out the case.

At the risk of hijacking, my VMC Speedster with a 2332cc motor has two hoses attached to the oil fill tube with the other ends connected to each air filter. Does this sound like a satisfactory configuration or should a breather box  be incorporated?   

Jason

FWIW My 1915 throws a little oil out that front seal (*not a seal) whenever I rev it much past 5000 RPM. If the oil level on the stick is above the "quart down" mark it'll push out a bit more than if it's at or just under that lower line. So I keep it right at the line, mostly.

That's OK to do because the engine has a 1.5-quart auxillary sump, so 1 quart down is actually a half quart more than stock. And it also has an Accusump accumulator with more oil in it that can be brought to bear instantly if needed.

Bottom line: a little drip from there is normative.

Does this sound like a satisfactory configuration or should a breather box be incorporated?   

An oil breather box will allow much of the oil mist from blow-by to settle in the breather box's filler material (for return to the crankcase) rather than blown/sucked into the carb filters directly.

It does look like you have an external oil cooler and filter by the oil pump cover. 

We're asking a lot of these engines. Originally, they were built to be cheap, simple, and pedestrian - the "volks" wagon, something to help normal folks get around on their daily grind. The original design was 1100 cc and 25 hp. If you have a riding mower, it was designed with more HP in mind.

A 2332 is more than 2x that big, and makes 6x the power. The crankcase volume hasn't increased. That 1100 cc pea-shooter really hated to run past 4500 RPM with the non-counterweighted crankshaft - we're spinning to 6000 RPM with some regularity.

A 2332 uses a 94 mm piston and cylinder. The Cima/Mahle 94 mm aftermarket cylinder is quite a bit thinner than it ideally would be if there were more room (which there isn't), which makes keeping a good piston-ring seal hard (more on why in the next paragraph). The popular aftermarket piston and cylinder sizes for T1 are 90.5mm, 92mm, and 94mm. The 92s used to be horribly thin, but 20 years ago a company called AA started making 92mm "thick-wall" cylinders. They're the thickest, followed by 90.5s, and then 94s. There are a lot of old-school Gene Berg disciples who hate a lot of things (compression, for one) who won't touch a 94 - they think it's a bridge too far.

As a cylinder heats up, the bore distorts to some extent. and you start to lose your ring seal. This loss of ring seal pressurizes the crankcase because of the blow-by. Pistons are aluminium and cylinders are iron, and they expand at different rates. The rings are meant to take up the difference, but there's a limit here - "softer" rings that seal better also wear faster. Generally, rings that wear better don't seal as well. It would be nice if the cylinder stayed round as it expanded, but there are a lot of things working against that. Generally, the thicker the cylinder, the less it will distort as it heats.

It would be better to keep it from heating so much to start with, but air is a bad cooling medium and the airflow through a Speedster engine compartment is horrible. There's just not enough air, and blowing oil out the crank on a hot day under a heavy load is something most of us have experienced no matter how big our breather setup is. If you go out on a cool morning and just putter down to Cars and Coffee - the rear tin will stay clean. Blast through the mountains, shifting at 6500 RPM on a 95 deg day, and there will be spray everywhere. It is what it is. You might try popping your deck-lid a couple of inches when it's really hot to get more air.

How did you break the engine in? There are a lot of schools of thought, but the initial period of an engine's operation is when the rings to "seat". The old-school method was to lightly run the engine, short-shifting and never putting the engine under load. Jake Raby says to run it like you stole it to get a good ring seal. I've got nuthin' here - sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you.

I've done a lot of stuff that's pretty esoteric, but I've thought a lot about this. There are engine builders who won't use Total-Seal gapless rings on the street at all, and those who swear by them. Most guys who run them only put them on the 2nd compression ring. Regardless, the hope is that you have a good ring seal, but the only way to know is by running what is called a "leak-down test", and not a ton of places will do one. Don't waste your time with a compression test - they'll tell you almost nothing about blow-by.

Additionally, your valves have no seals (because the head on an air-cooled engine is a pretty hostile environment) on them, and there is opportunity for some crankcase pressurization there as well, since the valve-covers are common to the crankcase.

This is not meant to freak you out - it's meant to explain why these things will often throw oil when there's nothing "wrong". There are design limits, and a 2.3L T1 engine is riding on the edge of them, and sometimes over. I've not even talked about "windage" which is another reason engines can puke oil.

There are things you can do to help your engine and frame of mind:

• Keep the engine as cool as you can. Get an aux. oil cooler with a fan and thermostat. Install a bunch of tin that nobody thinks you need. Figure out how to pop the deck-lid and keep it open a couple inches while you're driving and the temp is over 90 deg. Take a hard look at the exhaust and make sure it's not overly restrictive (stock heat exchangers are terrible).
• Get a thin-line extended sump. Extra oil, carried lower and out of the way of the whipping crankshaft is a good idea. I've looked at your pictures - you don't have an extended sump, which means that if your dipstick is reading low right now, there's a thimbleful of oil in the crankcase. You need a cushion.
• Learn what's normal. If you hoon on a hot day, you're going to throw oil. Carry extra. Check it often. Wipe the excess so you can see when you're throwing it and how much.

This is a white whale for a lot of us. I went to some pretty crazy extremes to keep oil in the engine. 92 thick-walls, Deeves top and oil ring, Total-Seal second. TPFE  valve-seals. A 96 plate oil cooler and a T4 cooler on the stand. A crazy exotic cooling system. 911 oil squirters to spray the underside of the pistons with cool oil. A dry-sump oil system with 12 quarts of capacity.

It's overkill - but I'm telling you all of this because you're trying to find out what's normal. What you have is what everybody experiences. You don't have to like it, but you will have to deal with it.

Forewarned is forearmed.

THAT ^^^^^^

I will add that new 94s seal better than 40,000 mile 94s. A LOT better. That's about the max you can expect before replacing them. Lasts a long time if you only drive a few thousand miles a year.

'Nuff said.

I took an hour and YouTubed the VW breather topic and it seems like this is needed if you do any type of spirited driving or a lot of high way trips with higher RPMs.

For those that said oil leaks are normal, do you have a breather box installed? 

@pkdfw posted:

@NeenahSpeedster

Can you take some pictures before and after the breather is installed when you get the part?  Would like to see how it goes on as my VMC is in the works right now.

Thanks

You should just ask to have one installed. It won't cost much to have it done now and it can be better incorporated into the engine compartment during the build instead of after. It will likely be fitted to the back of the firewall toward the top. The look is very clean.

@JasonC posted:

Interesting discussion.

So if it's a breather problem, why did Neenah's motor develop the need for a breather box only after 4,000 miles?  Also, would someone post a schematic or diagram of how the breather box is plumbed?

Jason

If you're just driving Miss daisy around you may never need a breather for the motor as you'll be sitting in the lower RPM range of this engine. It was designed with torque in mind and not HP which usually translates to higher RPMs. But as we are quite apt to do we can't help ourselves and we tend to hoon a little as NeenahSpeedster probably found himself doing. And when that happened he probably pushed some oil past the crank seal.

@Robert M posted:

You should just ask to have one installed. It won't cost much to have it done now and it can be better incorporated into the engine compartment during the build instead of after. It will likely be fitted to the back of the firewall toward the top. The look is very clean.

Great suggestion Robert.

I'll talk to Roy to see if Greg can have it done.  I have a wide body speedster being built and I have quite a few add on's already.  Went with the IRS and added the sway bars too.

Thanks

@pkdfw Asked; “For those that said oil leaks are normal, do you have a breather box installed? ”

Yes, oil leaks are normal for me and I have an adequate breather system installed for my engine.  It took some experimenting to "dial it in" and my oil leakage is at an acceptable minimum, now.

On most of our engines (not all) there is no oil seal on the pulley end of the crankshaft, just an internal washer called an "oil slinger" that catches oil moving along the crankshaft, slings it into a cavity from centrifugal force where the oil drains back into the crankcase.  If you have a larger engine (anything over 1915cc) and leaky piston rings you WILL have increased crankcase pressure that will try to find a way out anywhere it can, carrying oil with it.  Usually that is out past that slinger washer to the space behind the crankshaft pulley, where it runs down the case and onto the ground.  That is what's seen in the photos up above.

The way to improve the situation is to add a crankcase breather of adequate size and flow to relieve the pressure, while returning the airborne oil vapor to the case.  

I am sure that Greg at Vintage has a breather system that he knows will work well on your engine - This is not his first rodeo.  Still, it may be important to understand what is happening and what the time-proven methods have been to fix it.  An adequate breather system is most effective on hot days at sustained freeway speeds for 30+ minutes where it should significantly reduce blow-by leaks.  You should also keep your dipstick oil level between "low" and half-scale as many, many of us have found this to be helpful, too, especially with a deep sump on the engine.  Don't worry.  if you have a deep sump, there is fully adequate oil in there to supply your engine at freeway speeds and much more when the dipstick shows 1/2 quart low.

Even with all that, you should still expect to see a little oil (a few drops at most) wetness down below the crankshaft pulley after running hard on a freeway for a while - It's just the nature of a beast that was designed in the 1930's and reached it's peak in the 1970's.  This isn't a new design here, Bunsen Honeydew.

Oh!  And those few that don't leak?  They probably have what's known as a "sand seal" behind the crankshaft pulley, designed for dune buggies and meant to prevent sand or dust from getting into the engine past the oil slinger (but remember, the crankcase pressure is pushing out, not in).  They work, but it is a BIG DEAL to install one after the engine is installed in the car (don't even think about doing that) and they can cause a few other problems to deal with, too.  The approved cure for excessive crankcase pressure is an adequate breather system.

Hope this increases your understanding of what is going on.  That oil leak is dramatic, sure, but is NOT a disaster, was kind-a-sort-a designed that way and is easily fixed once an adequate breather is installed.

Because I have a tiny, little 1776 engine, I decided to forgo the breather box. Nevertheless, I still get drips from behind the pulley. See, an unnecessary solution averted.

^^^What @Stan Galat said above^^^ starting with "We ask a lot of these engines". The original 1100 cc Type 1 engine was designed just after the dawn of the automotive era, so they were experimenting and learning (almost every day) what worked and what didn't. The VW engineers also never dreamed of what we'd do or how we'd modify these things, so what was perfectly acceptable in a low revving, low budget commuter car doesn't cut it now that we've increased displacement to (in some instances) well over twice the original size and making huge power while spinning the little beast almost (and in some instances, more than) twice as fast, all while using the factory original engine case design.  So much has happened since then (some 90 years ago) and we know so much more now.

Oh- my original point- adding a breather essentially adds volume to the crankcase interior (which is what any Type 1 engine that revs higher than stock and what a >2liter really, REALLY needs!) and as Stan also said, adding bigger diameter tubing to and from the breather will be a big help to even the too small thing that most parts houses sell.  IIrc, @Gordon Nichols had great success with 5/8" tubing- it adds enough volume to slow down the air/mist movement so oil starts dropping out of suspension right in the tubing, before it ever hits the stupid little box.  If you go with the 3/8 tubing supplied with the tiny box everybody uses, it doesn't have nearly enough volume (the box itself should be 3? 4? 5? times the size) and pressure at even scootin' along the highway revs will still push misty oil past the stupid little piece of foam (and end up all over your just cleaned engine compartment).

PS- Gordon- my 1750 (69x90) would coat the engine compartment in oil when run for any length of time above 3500 rpm (which happens occasionally when running close 3rd and 4th gears!)

"IIrc, @Gordon Nichols had great success with 5/8" tubing- it adds enough volume to slow down the air/mist movement so oil starts dropping out of suspension right in the tubing, before it ever hits the stupid little box. "

Sort-of.  My breather box mounts directly to the alternator stand to drain oil back to the crankcase.  Started with 3/8" tubing from the breather to the air cleaners and had oil all over the place.  Upped the size to 1/2" tubing from the breather to the air cleaners and saw a decrease in oil leaks but not nirvana.  Upped the tubes once more to 5/8" and if I drive 70-80mph on an interstate for a few hours I'll see a little wetness below the pulley and maybe a drop or two on the floor - That's it, and I'm very happy with that.  Rather see it pushing air/oil OUT past the end of the crankshaft than sucking anything IN.

I bought the Berg sand seal cutter and a few of the double-lip seals several years ago(maybe 5-6?). You never know when they'll be un-obtanium, although they do come in a National box. I cut the case without disassembling the entire engine.

The first thing I did was pull the motor. I cut the case in process with my valve job and piston/cylinder replacement. I also changed the crank pulley/trigger which gave me the opportunity to install the seal.

It's pretty easy to use the Berg cutter. You simply remove the woodruff key from the crank, and bolt it on. The cutter has an O-ring that won't allow any chips into the case. You turn the cutter(magnesium is SOFTER than aluminum) and tighten the crank bolt. There is a stop so you can't cut it too deep. That's it, clean it up and tap the seal in.

I used the Jaycee pulley, which is aluminum but with a tool steel hub. They sell it either way, threaded or for a seal. I then machined a recess in the pulley to mount my crank trigger wheel.

I'm also a big fan of the JayCee Guaranteed No Leak pushrod tubes. I've used them on my motor and also on the 2276 I built for Mike. They are the shizzle and the bees-knees combined.

It doesn't leak.

Now, as far as a breather, I've had an Odyssey to get to where I am now.

Most of you know I have a 2165cc type1 from Jake Raby. It's in a pretty high state of tune, about 180hp or so.

I started out with a little round aluminum breather and vented both valve covers and the case through -8 lines(1/2" ID). What a mess.

Then I built a 24" long 2" diameter angled tube reminiscent of the OG 550 Spyder. I didn't mount it on the case like Porsche did on the 547 motor, but I did run a 3/8" metal brake line from the bottom and drained it back into the universal case type3 dipstick block-off. One vent from the case and each valve cover, and then off the top end to one air cleaner. Inside was a couple metal baffles with 1/4" holes drilled in them. That worked much better, but it still wasn't enough.

I added a solenoid-controlled(above 5000rpm) exhaust suction evacuation system. That fixed it, until the rings/cylinders wore out and the blow-by became too much. Even though this worked pretty well, I removed this system when I went down the rabbit hole.

Then I got really crazy and added the dry sump system when I rebuilt the top end of the motor. 52mm suction gears really literally vacuum the case dry. The Autocraft pump is really long as it also has a 26mm pressure stage, it sits about 4" proud of the case. That's also when I added the sand seal. I also added another JayCee part(surprise! they make GREAT parts), their remote oil filter mount with pressure bypass(back to the tank) anything over 80 psi.

With the dry sump install. I could remove the oil filler that I made through the distributor hole. I made that the main crankcase breather, but still retaining the two -8 lines at the valve covers. But it's a 3/4" ID hose going to my home-made 550 style breather. Yes, 3/4" ID, you read that right. To the breather, I made the top half removable and packed it with stainless steel Chore Boy pads.

The top end of the breather and the top of the dry sump tank vent to a nice little Evil Energy breather I got on Amazon. I emptied it once in the last 3 years, less than 8 ounces was in there. The motor stays clean except for my one valve cover that leaks no matter what and my oil cooler bypass(the seals are bad and need replacement).

Not a drop comes out of the pulley. It was a long process to get here but I'm happy with the result. I'll attend to the two little leaks over the winter.

There is some excellent, hard won advice here.

I know it seems incomprehensible in an age when absolutely nothing leaks, but this is just one more way these cars are not just cool looking Miatas.

Fighting oil leaks is fine, as long as you know that it takes years and hundreds (sometimes thousands) of dollars to whack every mole down, but that it will only last for a brief shining moment before another one pops its head up to be dealt with. Alternatively a guy could just slow down and avoid a lot of the mess to start with. I can't, but maybe you can.

I doubt that @MusbJim has ever worried about it, and I'd bet that @Sacto Mitch has talked himself into embracing leaks as a way to inner peace through learning to let go of worldly concerns like a tidy engine compartment.

I have no idea what kind of person you are - but what you do about oil leaks will reveal a lot more than you think it will.

@Stan Galat posted:

I have no idea what kind of person you are - but what you do about oil leaks will reveal a lot more than you think it will.

Tell me more about what you think about that 🙂

Some of you know I have certain OCD tendencies, however, I've just got a storage tub lid that sits under my engine. Some rabbit holes are deeper than others.

I genuinely appreciate everyone’s feedback. Thank you!

As I believe I’ve posted before: When I asked the mechanic that worked on my 911 what to do about oil that collected in the heads and dripped out the valve cover onto the heat exchanger if it sat more than a week, his response was “a drip pan is about $10, a quart of oil about $8, and a rebuild is $10-$15K.  What do you want to do?”

Personally, I think it’s a dandy second use for my Amazon boxes. I break them down and lay them under my engine/trans. It has the bonus feature of pinpointing exactly where oil is leaking.

I was able to build a turbo 911 engine with no oil leaks. I used all of my experience and techniques with the 911 when I built the 1776 for my speedster. I got oil leaks.

You can eliminate them, but you've got to ask yourself, is it worth it.

My 911 didn’t leak when driven regularly. It was only when it sat for a while that the oil seeped through the VC gasket enough to notice. And boy did you notice. It was like James Bond hit the smoke screen button by mistake.

Went away after about 30 seconds.

@dlearl476 posted:

My 911 didn’t leak when driven regularly. It was only when it sat for a while that the oil seeped through the VC gasket enough to notice. And boy did you notice. It was like James Bond hit the smoke screen button by mistake.

Went away after about 30 seconds.

Mine did the smoke screen thing, but I attributed it to leakage around the valve stem seals since it came out of the exhaust. I don't know.

The 993 was always totally tight and well behaved. I guess the sainted Porsche engineers made some improvements over 15 years.

.

A little history can add useful perspective here.

Parking a car indoors is a relatively recent convention — one that gained widespread acceptance only beginning around 1940 or so — well after the period when our engines were designed. Before 1940, cars were parked mostly outside or in out buildings originally built to shelter horses and other livestock. So, these were places where a little engine oil was hardly the worst thing to end up on the floor.

The dude who built my engine was something of a nostalgic traditionalist. He used the original VW oil filler tube (or, more correctly, oel filler tube). This has a little rubber hose that passes through a dedicated hole in the cooling tin to deposit oil directly onto my garage floor. Yes, that's right. My engine was deliberately designed to drip oil onto my garage floor. And, who am I to question a wonderful, nostalgic tradition like this?

Apparently, this was the original VW 'breather' system. The filler tube is open to the crankcase, obviously (and to any pressure that builds there), so it was felt hot oil vapor would come back up the filler tube, condensing into liquid oil on the way, and then drip back down into the crankcase or out the rubber hose and onto the roadway. In my case, most of the oil drips onto the roadways of Sacramento and Amador counties, with just a scosh ending up on my garage floor after shutdown (one to two drops per outing). This is another one of those dark, little secrets in Ferdinand Porsche's past that modern Porschephiles tend not to dwell upon in polite conversation.

So yeah, relieving crankcase pressure has been a thing with these engines since day one, and yeah, if your engine is bigger than 1100cc, you will have more pressure to relieve than the original engine did, and yeah, I have a pretty elaborate system that vents the valve covers to an over-sized condensing tank and then back to the filler tube and then back to the roadways of Sacramento and Amador counties and to my garage floor.

And yeah, despite all of that, I still get a little seepage here and there from time to time out of various junctures in the engine compartment that I don't worry about any more because Stan was right and I have convinced myself that there are better things in life to worry about.

Seeping or dripping or vaporizing or burning, I lose about three-quarters of a quart of oil between changes, after about 45,000 miles on this two-liter engine. So, no kidding, I'm just not worrying about this at all.

Really, I'm not.

.