oil, not a quick question...

Buy this oil at Target Stores, Inc., or other participating retailers, and you could get up to $17.00 in rebates with a purchase of 5 quarts.  Good thru October 31, 2017.

https://mobiloil.com/en/promot...ons/fall-rebate-2017

@Will Hesch Where did Valvoline VR-1 land in the mix? I tried to read it but my ADD kept me from reading too far into the article. I've heard good things about VR-1 and was wondering how it faired. If the Mobil is superior to it I'll consider switching to it.

Oh, and guess who else recommends Mobile 1?:

VR1  (both conventional and synthetic) was above 100,000 psi, Robert, so it did very well. The oil I was surprised didn't do that well was the Royal Purple HPS. Being a (I believe) class 4 synthetic I expected it to rank substantially higher than the 60 something thousand it did.

I just get a headache when I think about what oil has to do. besides creating a slippery barrier between bearing surfaces and reciprocating movement, it has to do a lot more. Oils have a base material but if you used just that, your engine wouldn't last around the block. There are viscosity improver's, pour-point depressants, contamination detergents, contamination dispersants. suspension additives, viscosity index stabilizers/improvers, cohesion improvers and heat retention dispersants, plus numerous other chemically induced things that make oil what it is. I'm always amazed how long it will last in a car today....unheard of 20 or 30 years ago. Zinc is Good for our little cars. So is the rest and pretty much any of the high quality oils out there on the shelf will do.   Reading on this site, most of us change our oil way more or sooner than we need to and that's good because it's cheap insurance to make sure our little "heartbeats" are taken care of in that department. That's my two cents of input on this subject.......What a great forum this is !................Bruce

Thanks Robert, I just e-mailed my rebate form for $12 back on my $24 purchase of 5 quarts of Mobil 1 Synthetic.

Whitecloud only takes 4 quarts so this oil change cost about $10, not bad! I've got a Setrab reusable filter so that was "free"(except for elbow grease).

Pennzoil VR1 came in 36th (out of 203) with 103,505 psi

36. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil (silver bottle) = 103,505 psi
zinc = 1472 ppm
phosphorus = 1544 ppm
moly = 3 ppm
calcium = 2,707 ppm
TBN = 7.6

Do as you like. Good base-stock oil is great, but the shear involved with flat lifters and dual valve-springs means those zinc and phosphorous numbers are pretty darned important.

I run full synthetic in all the trucks and the daily. The speedster gets conventional oil with a good additive pack. 

Stan, did you read the piece on oil?

It was a long read but the facts were clearly presented and speak for themselves.

Most oils (if not all) in the testing, 203 total, had zinc in their makeup (some levels were not determined).

Interestingly, many high ranked oils had low concentrations of zinc (under 1000 ppm) while others had high amounts (near 2000 ppm),  this proves that zinc concentration is not the determinant of good oil or it's ability to lubricate rubbing surfaces.

I also found it very interesting that the ability to lubricate is not based on viscosity.

He proved that all weights lubricate based on their composition but lower viscosity oils do it more efficiently.

They flow quicker which provides more protection on cold-starts and they run cooler because they spend less time between parts. This time (nano-seconds) between rubbing surfaces is how oil heats up.

The thing is, I don't know squat about oil, but this guy does, and did extensive testing and proved some important facts.

After two failed engines, I want the very best protection for Whitecloud and based on the science presented, I think the higher shear oils provide that, regardless of zinc amounts.

...ensuing firestorm...ready, set, go!!!

Oh boy, I'll be right back with the popcorn (and maybe some beef jerky, in honor of Stan) and something to drink. This is gonna get good...

Oil, a on going discussion......if your running a subie follow the factory suggestions.

if your running a flat tapped engine, your engine needs Zinc!   The old myths that you need 20-50 or straight 30 or 40 weight oil are ok for times past, but listen to your engine builder. Most motors we do that have a full flow system we run 10-40. 

We use breakin oil on new motors (30wt) and then change over to the 10-40.  All products are brad PENN.  On the water cooled porsches we use liquid moly.

all I can tell you is that several motors running off the self bargain oil usually has a flat cam down the road.  

I don't understand when someone buys the coolest exhaust, cool steering wheel, trick shifter or side curtains and gets cheap when it comes to oil????

 

The thing is, I don't know squat about oil, but this guy does, and did extensive testing and proved some important facts.

After two failed engines, I want the very best protection for Whitecloud and based on the science presented, I think the higher shear oils provide that, regardless of zinc amounts.

...ensuing firestorm...ready, set, go!!!

 

What oil does your engine builder recommend ?

Will,

You're right, the article is long. I didn't read it this morning, as I was getting ready to walk out the door to church. I skimmed it afterward.

Everybody worth listening to has an opinion, and data behind the opinion. This guy is one of many I've read.

In the face of all that conflicting data, I guess I'm just going with what has worked well for other people, and with what makes sense to me. The zinc and phosphorus we all crave are there as a sacrificial wear barrier, in the event that the oil doesn't do it's thing. I understand that the premise of the article is that it should never get to that point (that the oil itself should always do the job). I'd like the best base-stock available, but I also understand that most oils used to carry a higher concentration of sacrificial material before it was determined that they were prematurely fouling catalytic converters. This means something to me.

Regarding viscosity and temperature-- I've tried all permutations of viscosity, and I've never seen a lot of difference in anything but hot oil pressure. I can't (and won't) believe that single digit oil pressures at idle are better for an engine than something between 10 and 20 psi. Again, everybody has something they want to see. I want oil pressure.

I've had a cam go flat running Penn oil, so it's possible that I'm wrong. But I guess I think that the flat-cam epidemic is the result of cam blanks and lifters of dubious machining and metallurgy. I'd like to give that cam blank every chance possible, so I'm (finally) conservative enough to just go with what the established VW builders (Pat Downs, Jake Raby, etc.) all seem to be recommending-- multi-viscosity oil heavy enough to maintain good oil pressure, with high concentrations of zinc and phosphorus. They may be wrong, but I have to go with something-- and I'm not making the decision in a vacuum.

By the time I finish and determine which oil I want to run, I'm not sure they're going to let me drive anymore

Wish I could read the entire piece in only 12 steps

There must be a point at which the best thing for the engine is being done and we enter the realm of redundancy and excess. The difficulty is agreeing on when that point has been reached.

Tilt on, Don Quixote!

I ran Brad Penn 30w Break-in oil in the last engine for a couple hundred miles then changed it and put in Brad Penn 10w40 and in less than 3,000 miles the cam was flat and the lifter faces were pitted.

I don't know (never will) whether it was the oil, the cam, the lifters or all of the above that failed.

I now have slipper-skirt pistons which were re-used from the old engine (#2). Pat thought they would suffice and save me some money and they've been working great but...they knock when cold, noticeably so, or did, with the Lucas 30w Break-in oil and the 10w40 Hot Rod oil which I changed out yesterday.

I noticed something yesterday after changing to Mobil 1 5x30 which I think is noteworthy: after changing the oil, I cold-started Whitecloud and there was no piston slap. I just re-started her a day later (cold) and the same thing: no piston slap. In fact, we took her (or, she took us) to a Peppino de Augustino concert last night at a winery about 10 miles away and when we started her 3 hours later, no piston knock.

I don't have an oil-pressure gauge so I'm flying blind here, but whatever the reason, Whitecloud seems to really like the lower viscosity synthetic oil (5w30) which, by the way, has plenty of zinc and phosphorus.

I did read the whole article, mostly because you are buying it, @Will Hesch. The guy makes some solid points. I'm not with him on a couple of critical points, but I might come around. We'll see.

Personally, if Pat Downs built it I would then to stick with the oil he suggests but then .... "I know nothing, nothing"  Sgt Schultz

Ray, it's "I know nothink..."

the k gives it that German sound...

Nothing ....

Things I came away with were:

The HIGHER the psi value, the BETTER the Wear Protection, oil viscosity plays no particular role in an oil’s wear protection capability, zinc does not play the primary role in determining an oil’s wear protection capability, if a high level of zinc was a guarantee of superior wear protection, then all high zinc oils would rank at the top of the list and that was not the case, thinner oil flows quicker at cold start-up to begin lubricating critical engine components much more quickly than thicker oil can, oil FLOW is lubrication and oil pressure is NOT lubrication, using thicker oil just to achieve higher oil pressure, will simply reduce oil flow for no good reason, and use the thinnest oil possible WHILE maintaining adequate oil pressure i.e. 10 psi per 1,000 rpm.

11. 10W30 Mobil 1, Advanced Full Synthetic 115,635 psi

zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD

36. 10W30 Valvoline VR1

Conventional Racing silver bottle 103,505 psi
Zinc 1472
Phos 1544
Moly 3
Calcium 2,707
TBN 7.6

42. 10W30 Valvoline VR1 Synthetic Black bottle 101,139 psi

Zinc 1180
Phos 1112
Moly 162
Calcium 2,664
TBN 7.4

155. 0W30 Brad Penn Grade 1 Partial Synthetic 71,377 psi

Zinc 1621
Phos 1437
Moly 0

157. 10W30 Brad Penn Grade 1 Partial Synthetic 71,206 psi

Zinc 1557
Phos 1651
Moly 3

194. 10W40 Brad Penn 57,864 psi

Zinc TBD
Phos TBD

Seems like conventional VR1 would be my pick. I've got zero opposition to using it either.

yurp.

I like Valvoline 10W40 Max-Life semi-synthetic. No Zinc, phosphorus, or moly content listed, but 103,840 wear rating. Number 33 on the list, and available everywhere. That is an important criteria for me. I think I'll try it.

Hey, I'm already committing heresy in other ways, namely, not using 20W50. So why not?

So, my reading, skimming actually, who has that much time, tell me if you have a good oil, and don't drive it hard until it's warmed up, you'll probably be fine. But, if you must wear suspenders with your belt, get some Oil Extreme Concentrate additive in there. As always, YMMV (sorry).

John Nickerson posted:

So, my reading, skimming actually, who has that much time, tell me if you have a good oil, and don't drive it hard until it's warmed up, you'll probably be fine. But, if you must wear suspenders with your belt, get some Oil Extreme Concentrate additive in there. As always, YMMV (sorry).

That concentrate helped in quite a few oils but in several it made the oil perform more poorly. Just be careful. 

Here's the tl;dr on that article:

good oil with correct ZDDP (~1500) = good

great oil with low ZDDP (<1000 cat safe) = good

bad oil with correct ZDDP = bad

bad oil with low ZDDP = bad

I know I'm odd-man-out, but whatever 10-40 (detergent) oil is on special at Pep Boys.

With an embarrassingly lax maintenance schedule on my daily driver (1835cc & Kadrons), it was with zero angst that I mindlessly enjoyed the 100,000 relatively trouble-free miles we logged covering the Western States.

Not intending to throw shade on those who are genuinely concerned about caring for their hobby cars, just offering another perspective on enjoying the simplistic pleasure of driving a car that offers great gratification.   

I like the "mindless comment".... sometimes it is rinky dink thinking that gets you in trouble  

Jim, your previous car was right in the zone, 1800cc is where you may or may not need an external cooler, it's got plenty of power but isn't persnickety about oil choice and it just runs forever.

Lots of us, on the other hand, chose power (2,000+) over...dare I say it...reliability.

Aand so, we worry about air/fuel mixture, timing and overall spark advance, metallurgy on the molecular level, fuel and oil quality and every other detail that absolutely doesn't concern you.

Stan hit it when he said your Hakuna Matata attitude is the correct one for this hobby.

...roll on Brutha, keep inspiring us!

Again, brother Jim grounds us in his wisdom and shows the way. Wish I'd have known you growing up in the OC, Jim, we would have had fun, but I am glad we are on this forum together.

Jim,

Maybe if you had used better oil, your car would have been 100 feet further ahead in 100k miles and that guy would have turned right behind you instead of right in front of you? I'm just sayin!

Chris 

^  - @sherco_chris Chris, dang I think you may be onto something! 

MusbJim posted:

I know I'm odd-man-out, but whatever 10-40 (detergent) oil is on special at Pep Boys.

With an embarrassingly lax maintenance schedule on my daily driver (1835cc & Kadrons), it was with zero angst that I mindlessly enjoyed the 100,000 relatively trouble-free miles we logged covering the Western States.

Not intending to throw shade on those who are genuinely concerned about caring for their hobby cars, just offering another perspective on enjoying the simplistic pleasure of driving a car that offers great gratification.   

 Jim,

 Whenever I read any of your posts, all I the issues I've been stressing about with my car seem to fade away (at least for awhile). You need to post more!! 

Actually @MusbJim you're my hero. Who else has 100k miles and goes and gets another one and is ready for the next 100k?  I hope to meet you someday, maybe next year at SLO! 

Chris

Not engine oil related, but from the 540ratblog link (https://540ratblog.wordpress.c...l-wear-test-ranking/), I did the math to calculate "maximum safe redline". MAX SAFE REDLINE = (max safe average piston speed in ft/sec x 360)/ stroke in inches. I'm astonished to find that my 1915cc CB Performance engine could go to over 10K RPM safely. Surely there's something I don't understand. Pushrods come to mind so instead of using 80 for max safe average piston speed, would 60 be better, 55,...? using 55 for max safe avg. piston speed yields  7290 RPM max safe redline. 

Piston Speed = RPM x Stroke (in inches) divided by 6 = Ft per Minute

Also:

Corrected Piston speed is a method to more accurately represent stress on an engine, and is calculated as

mean piston speed divided by the square root of the stroke/bore ratio

Seems like you guys are gonna need bigger cams...

Go ahead and spin that 1915 to 10k. The interweb said it'd be fine. 

Jim, my friend---you are absolutely my idol.  Just drive the damned thing is your motto and you just don't stress while you are enjoying the ride.   And what a beauty you designed--not many of any make out there with the class and style of your car.  Congrats, buddy.

John, your pistons "MAY" be OK. However, long before 10K, your case would pound out, pushrods would bend, and possibly your rockers would divest themselves from the cylinder head. But the biggest downer would be a rod going through the case. That might ruin your day.....

John Nickerson posted:

... I'm astonished to find that my 1915cc CB Performance engine could go to over 10K RPM safely. Surely there's something I don't understand...

 

Stan Galat posted:

Go ahead and spin that 1915 to 10k. The interweb said it'd be fine. 

DannyP posted:

John, your pistons "MAY" be OK. However, long before 10K, your case would pound out, pushrods would bend, and possibly your rockers would divest themselves from the cylinder head. But the biggest downer would be a rod going through the case. That might ruin your day.....

For starters, @Stan Galat, I laughed out loud at that! And as @DannyP has noted, looks like we'll be planning an engine build soon! I suggest something really big (82x101.6=2659 or 84x101.6=2724 would do it) to find some of that power you're looking for at 8 and 9 and 10,000 rpm with the 1915, John.