Oil screen - is it needed?

With an added external oil filter it's not needed.  I ditched mine many years ago.

By the way, if your plate on the bottom of your deep sump does not have a center drain plug I would recommend switching it out for one that has. MUCH easier, when doing an oil change, to undo just one bolt.

Thanks, thats the reply I was hoping for!  I have the plate with the center drain plug

The filter protects the engine, but the pickup screen protects the pump. Same as any other engine. You can leave it off, but you assume some (low) risk doing so.

I elected to leave mine out after reading Berg's recommendation.

 

"Oil strainer information. An area of extreme importance. The inlet or suction side of any pump is extremely
limited in what it can do as compared to the pressure side and should never be impaired in anyway,
whereas the pressure side is capable of overcoming a great deal of extra
resistance. For that reason, I have not
used the stock oil strainer in any of my high performance street or race
engines since 1966. I found that it often caused too much restriction on
the suction side of the oil pump with a little higher performance and high RPM
engines. This problem was traced to oil starvation and all out bearing and/or
crankshaft failures from the oil not being able to pass through the stock
restrictive oil strainer screen fast enough to provide adequate flow to the
pump."  Gene Berg

My CB Perf 2110 has it in.  I am pretty sure if they thought it was a problem they would have not put it in. Every American engine I have ever seen has an inlet screen on the pump whether high performance or not. You have to remember, there is a bypass valve in the filter that pops off at low differential pressures.  This is most assuredly open when cold and at high rpm when warm, especially with the thick oils some of us run. When this valve opens you have zero filtration because the filter is bypassed. That being said, the screen is really only effective as a gravel strainer so it doesn't filter much and doesn't block flow either.

Well, Ive put it back in.

It was still leaking - I tried Ultra Black sealant.

So Ive gone back to the paper gaskets, everything squeaky clean, carefully nipped up.

Lets see if its leaking in the morning...

If you have a full flow filter, leave the screen out. Mine is out, I have an aftermarket 96 plate Mesa, Wix 51515 filter, remote filter mount, and thermostatic oil switch. Oh yeah, and a CB thinline 1.5 quart sump. My oil pressure is good, never dips or wavers in very harsh driving conditions(autocross and track use).

I use no sealants on the drain plate.  VW used no sealants. I am not smarter than the VW engineers, who designed the engine.  Unless you have an engine going over 6000 rpm often, I see no need to remove the oil screen. Now, that said, when I build a modified VW engine with an oil sump, I trial fit the sump in 1/2 of the case and look at the location of the pickup tube. The added longer pickup tube, they use, as it is needed to reach down into the oil sump.  Often, the pickup tube is too long and that can cause starvation of oil, due to restricted access to the extended pickup tube.  I modify all my pickup tubes, so they barely reach into the oil screen. This has to help with more oil flow.  As an additional precaution, as I use hose clamps, not welding, to hold the extended pickup tube inside the engine, I put on a small piece of quality oil pressure hose with a second hose clamp.

 

If the main hose clamp comes loose, the pickup tube cannot fall and block oil pickup inside the screen. If the welds came loose, the same thing would happen if the pickup tube falls into the oil screen or with no screen, either way, you lose oil flow and starve the engine of oil. Some added precautions are needed and doing these adjustments and/or modification insures me a well oiled and no problem with blocked oil flow.  I like the screen left in the engine, if it only turns up to 6000rpm.  If you have an engine capable of running over 6000 and you do this often, then leave out the screen and use the COW magnet, Berg sells and also found at any  Farm and Feed supply place. Not a joke, seriously, it's called a COW magnet and with the screen OUT, you want this attached to the extended pickup tube. 

 

When quoting Berg, you left out the Cow Magnet suggestion he does make, with regard to high performance engine.  The magnet will at least, pickup any steel particles in the oil, before they destroy your oil pump.  That might save your oil pump and your engine.  So, left out screen, you have to use the Cow Magnet to add some degree of safe oil flow and keep out metal from getting into the oil pump, as some suggested would be a terrible thing to allow.  ---George K. ---

I know VW didn't use any sealants on the oil plate and strainer gaskets, George, but the gasket material 30 and 40 years ago was impervious to oil; not like the uncoated paper crap of today, which needs some sort of sealant so they don't weep oil. I've heard of guys spraying them with lacquer, and even hair spray.

 

Yeah, Berg's cow magnet trick will protect the pump from any big pieces; mind you, at that point I wonder if it will matter. Another way to do it is to use the high powered magnets from a discarded hard drive on the drain plate- 

 

 

The OEM brand or German made oil change gasket kits are still available. The kits from China have too thin of paper gasket, so they have no crush left on them and do not seal good. So, Elring , the original gasket company who made the gaskets for the VW factory are still in business. They might have moved to Brazil or Mexico, but I have no problem finding this brand.

You have to ask for the brand names or the counter person will sell you the cheapest oil drain gasket kits. The VW retailers sell the poor quality gaskets as they have more profit margin on parts from China. The retailer does not care if the product does not seal good, only interested in making a big profit.

If you buy a Berg oil sump, it comes with the better , thicker gaskets, from this German company. On the complete engine rebuilding gasket sets, same thing. I ask for and only buy the one brand, as their gaskets work. Victor is another well known gasket company and their gaskets are lousy, wrong material , wrong rubber , wrong fit, etc. But, people in the auto parts business will say this brand is good. Sabo , used to come from Brazil and I don't see that brand anymore. That company also made gaskets for the VW factory, when the Beetle was produced in Brazil, but I think they no longer are in business.

I do not use any engine gaskets or seals made by EMPI. On their low cost push rod nylon tubes, I toss their 24 seals in the trash can and use those I buy from the Elring brand.

The magnets you put under the drain plate do not grab the particles close to the oil pickup tube. It's a good attempt and better than no magnet, but the Cow Magnet does the better job. Also, there are magnetic drain plugs, from EMPI, usually are chrome plated and do not fit very good. The VW factory used one or more drain plugs with built in magnets on the transmissions, to collect any steel particles which might come off the gears. EMPI copied the idea and put same type magnets in their oil plate drain plugs.

With the cam spec in my street engine, it does not produce more HP over 6000rpm. So, I can go over that number, but do not, as power band drops off. The bottom end of my expensive 1776cc is good for up to 11,000rpm. Very expensive parts. The valve springs limit shifts to 7500rpm, their limit. But, with power band from 1000 to 6000 rpm I stay in that range.

If you operate a full time VW repair shop I promise you, anyone coming in for a simple oil change with sealant on the drain plate gaskets, will upset you. I charge more labor time when having to clean off their sealant, whatever product they used. Then, I change the oil , put on the good German , thick , gaskets and use no sealant. I see no leaks, based on doing this for 40 years. Only ONE good German cardboard seal is needed between any oil sump and the engine case. No sealant.

http://www.elring.de/en/products/gasket-sets.html

Found their web site. Great company and products.
---George K.---

One short added thought on drain plate leaks. I only recycle the original drain plates. I find the available aftermarket ones too thin and they distort, when you tighten down on the six drain plate nuts. If you do not have an original German made drain plate, use the Billet material one. Those are expensive, but seal good.

 

I like your use of the allen head metric bolts, no studs and nuts. Only the factory cap nuts seem to prevent leaks, but the allen head ones also work good. Amazing how oil can seep past the tight threads on the drain plate.  ---George K.---

Use the sealants, regardless of gasket or plate used. Red rtv on both sides of each gasket. If you use socketheads, also use washers. The red rtv will give you a good seal. Since using this method I have NO LEAKS at this locstion with standard pressed metal parts.  Just saying . . .

If it works for you, George, that's great; I'm only relating what I've seen. As for the hard drive magnets, it's amazing what gets stuck to the drain plate (and doesn't ever go through the pump, just like the cow magnet). Al

If one needs to use sealant, they are using the wrong gaskets and/or their drain plate is aftermarket and distorts, when one applies torque to the six nuts. Torque spec is only about 5-10 ft. lbs. I use my hand to tighten the drain plate nuts, going around several times on them, until they feel tight. No torque wrench. If they are on the engine for a few days, recheck them and retighten, just a little bit, if there is any "feeling" they should be tighter. It's a delicate operation you don't want any Fast Lube place to do, as they will mess it up.

If sealant was needed, VW would have used it, for the 50 plus years , they made the engines. Also,
Porsche used no sealant on their drain plates on the 356 and none on the air cooled 911 engines.

You are basically stating the VW and Porsche engineers got it wrong ? Really ? The smartest auto engineers in the world, which GM pays money to, for R and D ? ---George K.---

I said it is a step in the right direction. The cow magnet, when installed properly will hang down just slightly below the opening on the pickup tube as you have to allow at least one inch clearance from the drain plate surface. If there is any steel in the oil, it will attach to the cow magnet. The magnets on the drain plate will help.

It's not my engine, so while I am suggesting some possible logical improvement to all, not my engine. I see so many stripped out 6mm drain plate studs from people trying to tighten the nuts to stop oil leaks. The suggested red RTV will work, but you know--- it gets hard on the inside of the engine, when you squeeze the parts together. The excess RTV, once dry can break off and then you have pieces of red RTV or whatever color you like, inside your expensive engine, being sucked up into the oil pump, as the excess is right there, by the oil pickup tube, not magnetic and those using NO oil screen, well, that RTV sealant will be sucked into the oil system. It will not get into the engine main oil gallery if you have the external filter, but will do damage to the oil pump gears. Anything bigger than a flea or more solid than a flea will scratch the gear surfaces. More so, if your engine has any oil pump not from the original manufacturer, as aftermarket steel is softer.

I am trying to save all money and your engines with good , solid and common sense advice. Also, based on what the German engineers designed and planned. ---George K.---

On the theory that the fine Porsche/VW engineers look knew what they were doing. I say hogwash, you are living in a dream world. Of course, they got a lot right, but not all. The two 356 coupes I owned, and vws friends have had all seeped oil it this junction when done as directed. Use the red rtv. Be diligent and sparing, and all will be fine. Again I say: my engine does not leave oil drips on my garage floor. QED.

I'm not saying they got it wrong, George, but things have changed. You may be able to buy oe quality parts, but a lot of guys don't have that luxury (a lot of shops don't carry the higher quality stuff and are only thinking about the bottom line), and are stuck with (in the case of drainplate and screen gaskets) cheap paper crap that weeps oil. Just like a lot of VW (both stock and hi perf) parts today, there's sometimes a lot more measurement and prep before they are ready to use. Al 

But, but, but... they were GERMAN!

 

I think those (100- 140 year old) German engineers would probably be rolling in the aisles laughing at the slavish worship for their every compromise 80 years down the road, if they hadn't all died 40 years ago.

 

Engineers in 1930s Germany were like engineers in any age. They didn't get to design perfection- they designed things to meet the requirements of the project- which in the Type 1 VW's case was "a simple and cheap engine that will run anywhere on any kind of fuel". Hundreds, maybe thousands of compromises from "ideal" were made for the sake of economy. Economy was the whole reason for the car to start with. Germany already had Auto Union and Benz for those desiring "perfect". The VW was supposed to be good enough, and cheap enough for Franz and Hans to purchase and operate. 

 

Those old engineers were smart, to be sure-- worlds smarter than me. They met every metric set before them, and designed a machine that became an icon. But they weren't unleashing all of their mental horsepower in the pursuit of perfection. Acting as if their designs or specs cannot be improved upon pretty much flies in the face of what every single one of us is trying to do.

Listen to George. He sounds a lot like Gene Berg. Old ideas for old times.

 

Like I said before, times have changed. We have changed. We're not a bunch of armchair morons in need of a deity to worship.

Danny P for President !!!

Small nuts on oil plate...   I tighten with a short 1/4" ratchet using just my pinky finger= about  4- 5 lbs.

If anyone wants quality parts, they can find them and order them from the Internet. Just ask for brand names, VW used in the past.

Using any poor quality gaskets does not make sense to me. Money wise, these parts are not expensive items. ---George K.---

I think the word you wanted to use is "hogwash". They got it right. The owners and shade tree mechanics get it wrong.

You did not ask, but my drain plate does not leak oil. No sealant and no leaks. I guess I got lucky ? There is the answer. None of my real Porsche cars, I owned in the past ( count five at different times, all air cooled) leaked oil. Your mechanic must have been doing drugs, well, the wrong ones.

Speedster owners are smart people, very knowledgeable. I am surprised at your using sealant , like a band aid, to fix what might be a broken leg. Most would want their engine done the same way that the VW and Porsche engineers suggested in the repair manuals. Maybe, it's just me liking the original ways, the old way, the ways which worked for 50 years.??? By the way, good thing you got the oil leak fixed. I give you two points on that.
---George K. ----

Geesh George you are so knowledgeable, you have managed to fill a much needed technical void here. With all the time you spend posting I'm amazed that you have the time left in a day to wrench....amazing !

     Well George would it seriously hurt any thing if it makes a guy feel better to put a thin smear of silicone on both sides of a gasket. When I changed my drain plate from one with no drain to a billet one with a magnetic drain plug, I put a little silicone on it. It doesn't leak by the way.  I wish I could say the same for my damn cylinder head nuts.            

 

     I too have a drag racing background. I raced a modified production 67 Camaro from 74 to 77. I'll be honest with you, we hated the guys racing VWs because they all had soft indexes to run against. I don't know maybe they were smarter than us.

Haysuzz,,,,Haysuzz....have y'all got nothing to do but fight ???   SHYT....ya'll can't get SAS out of your brains anyway for  bitchin' or litigation or threats to Theron ?  

 

Now a newbee has ...."outside"   info / common good info / hints etc info and is getting  SHYT from a few corners for his posting some ...albeit long winded infos along with his scratch build.

 

Anyone building...no..or re-doing there own Speedster and driving them for fun ???   Anyone maintaining their own speedster  ?

 

So...do you think there may be a chance that a person may come upon this list

and have a small opportunity to maybe buy one, build it up to a nicer one and then take a golden lifetime dream trip in it?

 

 That's what happened to me in 2010.  A $6,500 speedster in Boise, Idaho. I lived that small dream and my Wife and I drove that sucker right to Upstate NY and home to Ottawa, Canada.

 

Point is..for me, ..something abut this list gave me the idea to do it. It could happen again to another worthy friend of your's to be. Not so much if all you can do is bitch to yourself or another.

 

I've learned a lot from many new friends on this list. I hate to see disagreements.

 

Oh...I do use a bit of that black Locktite  stuff on my pan and no leaks. Gotta check the rad up front though...slight drip there from the Saab rad.  ...:-0

 

 

 

Sacto, you have said it all, better than any. I follow you into battle without hesitation. You are my leader, All hail the Great and Mighty Sacto!!

PS. Stroud said it right too.

feedback from the OP...

I used the paper gaskets and the screen from EMPI, nipped the 6 nuts up evenly by hand, no additional silicone gasket used, Im using Brad Penn 20W30 oil.  

24 hours after running the car, I have no leaks.

I'm such an idiot. I'm pulling my 200 hp 2276. I'm going back to a single carbed 1600. The Germans knew all.

Collin- I've found the cheaper pressed paper gaskets take a while to start leaking...

Where can I buy the correct gaskets?

Has anyone tried the reusable silicone gaskets?  If so, any success?

 

The point for me is the wordiness and the "talking down to the masses" mentality.

 

David, all I'm saying is somebody needs to tone it down a bit. No disrespect meant.

 

We don't need a sooth, a deity, or whatever. Say what you have to say in a concise, clear manner. I ain't got time to wade through all the bull, is all. We all have something to teach, and we all have something to learn.

 

Did anyone ever watch the movie "The Fifth Element"? You know the part where Milla Jovovich's character says her name? And then Bruce Willis' character says "Short" and makes the sign with his fingers?

 

THAT! Think "Leeloo"!

Collin:

 

https://bugcity.com/shop/shop....=oil+strainer+gasket

 

get the one on the bottom left with the GR at the end for "German"

 

BTW, this place is in a house with parts every frickin place. But, even though it LOOKS disorganized, it isn't. I ordered some stuff for a customer online on Saturday. It shipped Monday and was at my house Tuesday when I got off work. Great parts, great service. And their address is Berlin, CT LOL!

 

I got a good story when LennyC and I went there to get parts for his Spyder.

 

I was standing in line with Lenny and his son Chris on a Saturday afternoon. This place is about 20-30 minutes from Lenny's house. I think we were picking up aftermarket camber adjusters or something like that. There were a few others in line before and after us.

 

This dude comes to the screen door and says "Is Dave here?"

 

So I quip back "Dave's not here, man!" and the whole place busts out in laughter, 'cause we are all old enough to know the joke!

I'm cool with that, Danny...no disrespect noticed anyway.

For those that don't remember:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtDAK7Umk7A

You forced a response. We are driving replica Porsche speedsters based on 1955 design and engineering. We are using the VW engine, well some of us are using the air cooled engine, and that design goes back to 1937, I believe.

I don't understand you insisting we need to move forward and consider what new stuff, or new tech stuff, you do not mention. You just say we need to think in the present and not in the past. I am working on old stuff, old engineered stuff, so unless you invent a new VW air cooled engine, with dual overhead valves, electronic computer controlled ignition and fuel management systems, with computer controls, why don't you accept what worked 40 years ago, still works. Only if one does it the same way, as was done on the old air cooled engines, when people knew how to work on their own cars.

I own a 2014 Hyundai. I hope it never breaks down on the highway, for other than a flat tire as I know YOU certainly cannot fix it on the side of the road, like we can do with many possible quick repairs, to the old VW engine. So, I carry towing insurance and a full warranty package. No way I have the needed equipment and data base to work on this new car and I am ASE certified. Have you noticed the GM mechanics only work on GM cars. People are specialized these days. Nobody has the knowledge and skills to work on all brands and types of vehicles. Nobody ,that I know of, so maybe, you need to address this with the ASE, who test and certify auto tech persons, as their testing is on general information, which applies to all vehicles, not just one brand.

I never said I agreed with all of Berg's suggestions and I don't. Maybe, that will make you more happy or suggest you buy yourself a beer and relax. We are just sharing information. As I stated before, if you know this stuff, don't read past the first sentence or two and delete it from your in box. Otherwise, it seems to upset you and that is not the intention of anything I write.
Some people know this stuff and others do not. It is always some benefit to share information . Just sharing. Not saying you need to worship what Berg or I write. I cannot believe you wrote something about worshipping . This is car information web site, not a religious discussion.

I buy many Berg parts as they are still excellent quality. I use Clyde Berg for head work, as I believe his work is about the best in the nation. I use Rancho transmission and have tried three other builders, but find the ones build by Rancho work smoother and they also have the longest warranty. These are old folks and old companies. I guess what you are suggesting is that all of us stop using anyone from the past as certainly they must be living in the past and old school knowledge ? Is this your point ? Maybe, you need to buy a new car and sell your old school speedster ?
---George K.----