For those members who are running a standard engine sump and an external oil cooler, I would like to solicit any advice available as I finish my build and prepare to run for the first time.
Here are the details
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For those members who are running a standard engine sump and an external oil cooler, I would like to solicit any advice available as I finish my build and prepare to run for the first time.
Here are the details
Here are the details
This has been addressed before. I was on the fence thinking about drain back etc...
I think the general thought was that it was fine for short/normal parked periods(1/2 days). The clearances of the pump etc.. thermostat would be enough to slow the migration. Long periods you may be overfilling your sump a bit. Take it easy on start up.
If you have the choice at this point----why would you mount the cooler up so high and out of direct airflow. Why not out in front and let the natural airflow do the work?
With the added benefit of it being level(near) with the sump.
I think the general thought was that it was fine for short/normal parked periods(1/2 days). The clearances of the pump etc.. thermostat would be enough to slow the migration. Long periods you may be overfilling your sump a bit. Take it easy on start up.
If you have the choice at this point----why would you mount the cooler up so high and out of direct airflow. Why not out in front and let the natural airflow do the work?
With the added benefit of it being level(near) with the sump.
Thanks for the input Bruce, I am absolutely open to suggestions from those who have successful systems.
I'll say why I intended on mounting to the location on the bulkhead.
1) I ultimately want the oil in the cooler/lines higher than sump so to be able to drain to sump so as to ensure a complete removal of old oil at oil change time
2) the out of the way mounting location isnt vulnerable to debris
3) the cooler is mounted on offsets to the bulkhead, and includes a thermostat controlled electric fan, so I assumed cooling would be adequate
4) the cooler is too big to mount lower, either in the wheel wells, or near the half shafts (IRS axles)
5) It wasnt clear to me how best to safely run my teflon lines all the way to the front of the car
I'll say why I intended on mounting to the location on the bulkhead.
1) I ultimately want the oil in the cooler/lines higher than sump so to be able to drain to sump so as to ensure a complete removal of old oil at oil change time
2) the out of the way mounting location isnt vulnerable to debris
3) the cooler is mounted on offsets to the bulkhead, and includes a thermostat controlled electric fan, so I assumed cooling would be adequate
4) the cooler is too big to mount lower, either in the wheel wells, or near the half shafts (IRS axles)
5) It wasnt clear to me how best to safely run my teflon lines all the way to the front of the car
Dan, I've got a couple suggestions for you. I don't know if this is the Gospel According to Dr. Porsche, but it works well for me and hasn't let me down.
If you're using a spin-on filter, you should ALWAYS make sure you fill it before you intstall it. Take the three quarts you're putting into the (I assume Type I engine?) and pour from that three quarts first. Don't make up the difference -- count the filter as part of that three-quart volume.
Check your dipstick. There will probably be two lines on it. It's not a 'hot' and 'cold'; it's the full (top) and one-quart-low indications from the factory. After you add your initial dose of oil, motor your car over for a minute or two, and then shut it off.
Look at the dipstick again and see where the line of your oil lives. Add a little at a time, repeating the exercise until it reflects full. Then drain all of that oil out, preferrably into a clean container with a known volume, or into a container which will allow you to pour it into the original quart containers again, so you can get an exact measurement of the required volume.
Write that volume down, and you'll know where that leaves you.
I have a different engine than you do, I'm sure, and lots of cooling lines and two coolers. There wasn't any way for me to measure what I needed initially, and my dipstick isn't the one the factory intended, so I hatched this plan a while back, did it once when the engine was a 2366 with one cooler and a second time with the 2424 I have now.
It worked okay.
If you're using a spin-on filter, you should ALWAYS make sure you fill it before you intstall it. Take the three quarts you're putting into the (I assume Type I engine?) and pour from that three quarts first. Don't make up the difference -- count the filter as part of that three-quart volume.
Check your dipstick. There will probably be two lines on it. It's not a 'hot' and 'cold'; it's the full (top) and one-quart-low indications from the factory. After you add your initial dose of oil, motor your car over for a minute or two, and then shut it off.
Look at the dipstick again and see where the line of your oil lives. Add a little at a time, repeating the exercise until it reflects full. Then drain all of that oil out, preferrably into a clean container with a known volume, or into a container which will allow you to pour it into the original quart containers again, so you can get an exact measurement of the required volume.
Write that volume down, and you'll know where that leaves you.
I have a different engine than you do, I'm sure, and lots of cooling lines and two coolers. There wasn't any way for me to measure what I needed initially, and my dipstick isn't the one the factory intended, so I hatched this plan a while back, did it once when the engine was a 2366 with one cooler and a second time with the 2424 I have now.
It worked okay.
Thanks for the suggestion, Cory. Yes, I have a type 1.
In your application, are your oil coolers mounted at a higher elevation than the sump? If yes, have you experienced any problems related to (when engine is cold) the extra volume of oil in the sump at startup?
In your application, are your oil coolers mounted at a higher elevation than the sump? If yes, have you experienced any problems related to (when engine is cold) the extra volume of oil in the sump at startup?
Dan: I have the same set-up as you except the full flow. The oil does indeed drain back into the sump after shutting it down. So it'll read high after sitting for awhile. I always check the level immediately after stopping the engine and on occasion do it while it's idling. That way you get a real time operating level. I then add accordingly.
I found this thread that touches on this subject.
http://speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=12445
~WB
I found this thread that touches on this subject.
http://speedsterowners.com/forum/readmsg.asp?t=12445
~WB
Dan, I don't have a sump.
Both coolers are higher than the oil outlets, though. I also have a breather box, which I'd certainly encourage you to look into.
Both coolers are higher than the oil outlets, though. I also have a breather box, which I'd certainly encourage you to look into.
Bill, thank you kindly for pointing me to the other thread... I regret not finding during my numerous previous forum searches on the topic. :)
Cory, thanks again for the tips and suggestions, and best wishes with selling your ride.
I am going to pre-fill the cooler and lines as best I can, and fill sump to near total calculated capacity at startup, and then monitor closely to see if the oil in my system ultimately drains back down to the sump.
thanks all,
-dan
Cory, thanks again for the tips and suggestions, and best wishes with selling your ride.
I am going to pre-fill the cooler and lines as best I can, and fill sump to near total calculated capacity at startup, and then monitor closely to see if the oil in my system ultimately drains back down to the sump.
thanks all,
-dan
As long as you look at that fill line -- don't go over it, because it reflects the ideal amount of oil in the case itself -- you should be fine.
Good luck!
Good luck!
Why not raise the height of the oil-lines to/from the cooler so that they are at some point, above the height of the cooler. On shut down, your one quart should "trap" in the oil cooler instead of draining back into your sump. The only drain back should be what is in the lines.
Bear in mind that I don't hve a type I. I'm just totally making this up as I go...
angela
Bear in mind that I don't hve a type I. I'm just totally making this up as I go...
angela
Dan, she's got a Type VI. Flat-VI, that is. In a Spyder.
Yeah, but oil doesn't know that. The oil can't go over the high spot in the lines unless it's under pressure. Theoretically that should work.
Just think of it as an automotive P-trap...
angela
Just think of it as an automotive P-trap...
angela
Steve, you are on the something. If you are concerned with draining"ALL" of the oil during a change just add a drain "TEE"
at the low spot of Lanes loop.
at the low spot of Lanes loop.
Yes, or unbolt and lift the cooler. OR drop the "high spot" down so the oil drains.
angela
angela
I have an Accusump installed and have had a similar concern.
Is anyone else using one of these?
I holds a quart of oil under pressure. It is released as soon as the key is turned on. When the engine builds up oil pressure, that extra quart would be pushed back into the Accusump.
Is anyone else using one of these?
I holds a quart of oil under pressure. It is released as soon as the key is turned on. When the engine builds up oil pressure, that extra quart would be pushed back into the Accusump.
I have my oil cooler mounted vertically with the in/output lines at the top of the cooler so the oil doesn't drain back to the sump.
Prior to starting my engine for the first time, I pre-filled the oil cooler by using a lower unit quart hand pump, (purchased at West Marine) used to change the gear oil in outboard motors.
www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=91936
The pump screws on to one quart bottles of oil and hand pumps the oil through a 3/8" plastic tube.
Also bought a 3/8" barbed fuel hose adapter - this is attached to the plastic tube coming off the hand pump and bolts right up to the oil line going into the oil cooler.
As mentioned earlier, it's a good idea to pre-fill the oil filter as well
The hand pump can also be used to flush oil out of the oil cooler at oil change time.
Prior to starting my engine for the first time, I pre-filled the oil cooler by using a lower unit quart hand pump, (purchased at West Marine) used to change the gear oil in outboard motors.
www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=91936
The pump screws on to one quart bottles of oil and hand pumps the oil through a 3/8" plastic tube.
Also bought a 3/8" barbed fuel hose adapter - this is attached to the plastic tube coming off the hand pump and bolts right up to the oil line going into the oil cooler.
As mentioned earlier, it's a good idea to pre-fill the oil filter as well
The hand pump can also be used to flush oil out of the oil cooler at oil change time.
I use an Accusump also. I have changed the oil in it a couple of times the hard way...specifically, disconnect the Accusump from the car, insert the hose in a closed catch container, then apply 12 vds to the valve.... please note you need to make certain the end of the hose is is restrained in a container that is pretty much sealed. 2 quarts of oil at 60 psi will make a rather large mess in the shop...don't ask me how I know that.... after the Accusump is discharged then let the remaining pressure out of the air fill valve, remove the shut off valve, add 2 quarts of oil, reinstall the valve, pump the pressure back up to about 60 psi using your compressor, and reinstall it in the car. Pain in the butt, but it works.
Most recently, the last 2 oil changes I have moved to a much more effective oil filter, one that really does trap much more contaminates....so I now drain the engine sump, remove the old oil filter, prefil the new filter with nearly a quart of oil, let it sit a half hour or so, top it off, reinstall it in the car, put 5 quarts in the sump, flip on the Accusump, and power up the car....I have 2+ quarts of not so clean oil mixed in with 5+ quarts of new oil. While this may seem remiss to some, I have reviewed a lot of information on such approaches, similar things are done on fleet vehicles all the time.... one technique calls to change the filter ever xxxx miles, top off the oil (thereby adding at least 1 quart of fresh oil) and never "change the oil". I don't like that approach, but it is used by some fleets that cover millions of vehicle miles...
Oil fliter discussions always lead to big arguements, but not all filters are equal, which hopefully is perhaps the best way to start a discussion and avoid making someone unhappy. I was using Fram HP-1's for a long time. My oil was generally pretty ugly in about 1000 miles. Yet when I cut a couple of filters apart they were pretty clean.....suggesting they were not working very well. I have since moved to WIX 5151R filters, cost about $1 more at NAPA than the Fram HP1's elsewhere, but in my application they work much better. I am told the Fram's generally have a bypass valve that bypasses the filter at pressures over 10 psi. I don't know that to be correct or not, but it would explain my problem with a high pressure oil system, clean filters, and dirty oil. the WIX does not have the bypass, it is intended for racing so the web site says...I know have very clean oil for 3000 miles and a very dirty filter....
Most recently, the last 2 oil changes I have moved to a much more effective oil filter, one that really does trap much more contaminates....so I now drain the engine sump, remove the old oil filter, prefil the new filter with nearly a quart of oil, let it sit a half hour or so, top it off, reinstall it in the car, put 5 quarts in the sump, flip on the Accusump, and power up the car....I have 2+ quarts of not so clean oil mixed in with 5+ quarts of new oil. While this may seem remiss to some, I have reviewed a lot of information on such approaches, similar things are done on fleet vehicles all the time.... one technique calls to change the filter ever xxxx miles, top off the oil (thereby adding at least 1 quart of fresh oil) and never "change the oil". I don't like that approach, but it is used by some fleets that cover millions of vehicle miles...
Oil fliter discussions always lead to big arguements, but not all filters are equal, which hopefully is perhaps the best way to start a discussion and avoid making someone unhappy. I was using Fram HP-1's for a long time. My oil was generally pretty ugly in about 1000 miles. Yet when I cut a couple of filters apart they were pretty clean.....suggesting they were not working very well. I have since moved to WIX 5151R filters, cost about $1 more at NAPA than the Fram HP1's elsewhere, but in my application they work much better. I am told the Fram's generally have a bypass valve that bypasses the filter at pressures over 10 psi. I don't know that to be correct or not, but it would explain my problem with a high pressure oil system, clean filters, and dirty oil. the WIX does not have the bypass, it is intended for racing so the web site says...I know have very clean oil for 3000 miles and a very dirty filter....
I agree with Jim about no-harm mixing some old oil with the new oil. On any 911 with a front or front fender mounted oil cooler, there is always oil in the cooler and the lines that does not easily come out during oil changes. It is possible to disconnect the lines at the right rear fender thermostat, drop the thermostat down and blow air thru the lines to get most of the oil out. Even at that, there will be oil in the lower loops of the cooler. I say possible, but far from practical...
In reality, the oil is drained from the engine sump and tank, new filter installed and it gets fired up. This works for factory 911 warranty so I suspect it actually is "just fine" and way, way easier!
+1 on the FRAM filters for the reasons Jim lists. Alot of the 911 guys don't like them for the same reason.
angela
In reality, the oil is drained from the engine sump and tank, new filter installed and it gets fired up. This works for factory 911 warranty so I suspect it actually is "just fine" and way, way easier!
+1 on the FRAM filters for the reasons Jim lists. Alot of the 911 guys don't like them for the same reason.
angela
Thank you to everyone for weighing in with comments and suggestions thus far, and particulary to Angela for the reminder about "old" oil staying in the cooler/lines/etc during an oil change in a 911... as I have great respect for the 911, it certainly makes the thought of not changing "all" the oil less of a concern to me than I previously felt.
Jim,
I have not run the engine with the Accusump so I have no experience with any of this.
It seems like if I turned the key on without starting the car, the Accusump would discharge into the sump and its oil would get changed along with the sumps oil.
Am I missing something?
I have not run the engine with the Accusump so I have no experience with any of this.
It seems like if I turned the key on without starting the car, the Accusump would discharge into the sump and its oil would get changed along with the sumps oil.
Am I missing something?
I also use an 3Qt Accusump ( Canton Mecca ) as well as their 3 micron external cannister oil filter and Russell braided lines in my V8 TVR. I've used the Accusump & filter set up for years with an external solenoid valve that turns on & off with the key. I'll be putting a smaller one on the VS this Winter as it has worked very well on the TVR, and once filled, doesn't dump the added oil capacity back into the sump on shut down. Their filter is great as well ( external cannister w/cartridge element ) and filters down to 3 microns and much less restrictive as well. Check out their website...great info if you poke around: http://www.accusump.com/
Doug
'04 VS
Doug
'04 VS
Doug,
I understand that the external solenoid valve would retain the oil in the Accusump on shutdown.
But, again, it seems like the solenoid would release the oil into the sump if you turned the key without starting the car.
Right?
If so, this would be a way to change all the oil.
Sorry about the blank message earlier. I couldn't figure out how to delete it.
I understand that the external solenoid valve would retain the oil in the Accusump on shutdown.
But, again, it seems like the solenoid would release the oil into the sump if you turned the key without starting the car.
Right?
If so, this would be a way to change all the oil.
Sorry about the blank message earlier. I couldn't figure out how to delete it.
Michael,
You are correct that the oil in the Accusump will discharge through the bearing gaps to the sump if you just turn on the key and not start the engine. However, when you are then ready to start the engine you have a "dry" Accusump (no oil in it) and a lot of the rest of the system is also dry. Not good for start up....exactly one thing you want to avoid. The process I described is pretty much how Accusump instructions say to change out the oil in their product....
Jim
You are correct that the oil in the Accusump will discharge through the bearing gaps to the sump if you just turn on the key and not start the engine. However, when you are then ready to start the engine you have a "dry" Accusump (no oil in it) and a lot of the rest of the system is also dry. Not good for start up....exactly one thing you want to avoid. The process I described is pretty much how Accusump instructions say to change out the oil in their product....
Jim
Jim,
Thanks for your reply.
Wouldn't the condition you describe be pretty much the same as an engine without an Accusump?
If other engines start all the time under these conditions, it seems like it would be ok to start an Accusump equipped engine this way once every few thousand miles.
Thanks for your reply.
Wouldn't the condition you describe be pretty much the same as an engine without an Accusump?
If other engines start all the time under these conditions, it seems like it would be ok to start an Accusump equipped engine this way once every few thousand miles.