Ordering an A-1 Exhaust System for a VMC 2332cc Type I

Way back when I ordered 1 it was Tiger that ran the place,,he knows  what U need(if hes still around)

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We've been down this road many times here, and there are quite a few things to understand and consider, but here's a pretty good wrap-up that Stan typed a few years ago.

The rest of that thread kicks the can around pretty well, too.

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Thanks, fellas. I really want to get everything down pat before speaking with Tiger and his staff. I texted them to get some info and have been studying people ever since.

Greg is pretty solid when it comes to mating the right exhaust with the right motor. The choice you might be faced with is if you want a dual tip or a single tip exhaust. After that he can order exactly what you need for the 2332.

A1 sidewinder. Works. A bit of a hassle to adjust those right side valves, but it can be done.  with a floor jack.  Lying on your back.

I had ordered mine 4 years ago by going to Tiger's shop. He explained and showed me several design he'd suggested for my 1600cc. Great guy to talk with and he knows his A1 designs. Tiger's designs really do add perforance to the motor. One can feel it the first several times you drive the car. After awhile, you get used to the increased performance, just as one gets used to anything new on the car. However, every time you start the motor with Tigers A1 design it sounds sooooo good.

@Stan Galat so, when ordering a performance exhaust (A-1Sidewinder) from VMC, I found out they use the 1 1/2” diameter pipe. That said, everyone and their mothers say a 2332cc motor should be paired with a 1 5/8” exhaust. At the same time, everyone overwhelmingly knows Greg pairs his 2332 with the correct exhaust system for best performance. I know I’m missing a nuance here.

The chart below indicates that I may not be appreciating the RPM range to which both groups are implicitly referring.

Just to be thorough, I chose to have traditional heat, with a 3:44 transmission, and I plan to drive this car like I stole it.

Everybody, from time immemorial has equated engine size with raw performance. It's a component, for sure - but guys who say "I've got a 2332" are pretty much saying nothing. Cadillac built a 500 cubic-inch V8 for their sedans in the 70s, but their purpose was to have something that felt like an electric car or a locomotive. They succeeded, but a well-built Chevy 350 in the right car would rip that Cadillac 500 in half in any contest of speed.

Cylinder displacement affects exhaust design, as does cam profile and what heads are being used. The linked chart, while helpful, is a starting point, and assumes that every 2110 is going to be built and used in the same way. It's not the final word, handed down to Gene Berg from God Almighty on Mt. Baldy.

Larger primary tubes, all else being equal, move the power-band up the RPM range.  It's matched to the cam, the heads, and the application. Over on TheSamba (which is a two-edged sword regarding information), every monkey's uncle would recommend 1-5/8" primaries. They'd also recommend an FK89, some Wedge-Ports, and a pair of IDAs. Or stock heads, a W110, a pair of Kadrons, and a Vintage Speed canister. They'd expect you to know where they were coming from.

I have said that a 2110 with a W120-like cam, some Panchito-like heads, 40 Dellortos (or IDFs, I don't care), and a 1-1/2" sidewinder is a pretty sweet combination, and nearly perfect for a speedster. It'll be snappy and start pulling almost from idle, and not stop until about 6000 RPM. It'll make about 140 hp. It really likes standard gearing in the transaxle with a 3.88 or 3.44 R/P.

Not everybody wants that. There are plenty of guys who want a 160+ hp 2110, and who don't mind giving up any power before 3000 RPM. They're not looking for a 5th gear, or for a "freeway-flier", they're completely happy with the stock R/P and might even put taller gears in to get a jump off the line. Those guys want 1-5/8" primaries.

I knew a guy who was completely happy with a 1776 with IDAs, wedgeports, and a 1-5/8" merge header. He didn't make power at "putt-around" speeds, but when it was spooled up, it screamed.

Only you know what you want - but the reason I (and apparently, Greg) like the 1-1/2" primaries is that what you give up by going to them is something that most buyers of a Speedster don't really want to start with.

Do you want a stoplight hero, or a sportscar? It can't be everything.

Thanks, @Stan Galat. Having grown up on 600cc motorcycles, I’m accustomed to gearing things down a bit and getting to redline to have more fun around town (45 - 60 mph), while keeping sustainable top-end capability to about 120 mph (140 mph max speed).

With an air cooled car, I’d treat everything pretty much the same. Meaning: bottom end torque in the city with a sustained cruising speed of 80 mph, and a responsive passing capability of 90-95 mph at redline is the ultimate goal.  Anything faster than that is totally wasted on me.

Yeah, you'll never replicate a streetbike in a speedster. It's a whole 'nuther deal.

If this is what you want to try for, then I recommend getting a 5-speed and a 1-5/8" exhaust. Your transaxle is going to be the limiter here.

You’re probably right, but I wanted to use my first speedster as an intro into the Madness, as everyone calls it. My first motorcycle - god rest it’s soul - knows all too well that I learn by building, operating, filing the accident report, paying the ticket, modifying, and repeating until it’s perfect.

@JoelP- I'd lay money on the VM 2332 being a pretty well sorted (and bulletproof) combination with the power being over by 53 or 5500 rpm any way, and putting the larger exhaust probably won't do all that much for the top end while making the bottom end/lower midrange a little 'soggy' (well, as soggy as a 2332 can be).  To really make use of a 1 5/8" Sidewinder, the engine would probably need a step (or 2! ) hotter cam and maybe even slightly more carburetion.

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Yeah, Greg is in the difficult spot of having to please all of the people all of the time.

With years in the air-cooled VW game, he has tried to come up with one engine that will keep the greatest number happy. The less he has to custom-tailor engines to individual orders, the easier life will be for his engine builder, the smoother his workflow, and the better able he'll be to meet projected delivery times.

Too, as time goes on, the less likely it is that customers will have had experience with the fussy, analog, low-displacement motors of the '60s. Folks today expect to turn the key and have smooth power delivery from idle on up. They don't want to worry that the engine is in its happy place before they stomp on the gas. They probably never think about all the computer-assisted adjustments modern engines are constantly making (to valve timing, fuel mixture, and spark advance) to deliver smooth, seamless power up and down the rev range.

There are other complications, too. Many customers will expect to have some kind of heat in their $50,000 sports cars. Stock VW heater boxes are made for 1.375" pipes. You can get boxes for 1.5" pipes, but quality ones are a little harder to find and a little pricier. For 1-5/8" pipes, supplies will be short and prices near ridiculous.

I've never driven one of Greg's new engines, but they're supposedly being supplied by Pat Downs, who has a pretty good track record of specifying parts and configurations to keep customers happy.

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As I recall, Greg built this engine for torque and mid-range response. In fact he called it the torque monster when they were first working on it.  That's really where you want to be with a street engine.  In a bike a peaky rev happy engine and a 6-speed trans can be a real hoot, but an engine like that in a speedster with a 4-speed get's old fast. Unless all you do is strafe canyons or do track days I'd stick with his specifications.

I've been working with Greg for a few years on my coupe, plus I used to do custom work of a different kind for people. With experience from both sides of the counter I can assure you that the more you deviate from the menu and the more parts you supply of your own, the longer your build will take and the greater your chances of being disappointed in the outcome.  Greg knows what he's doing. He's really thought this out. He works with Pat Downs and A-1 to build a package that is complete. The engine was designed around a set of things, carbs, jetting, cams, exhaust, etc.  If you change one of those things you run the risk of putting all the others out of balance.  None of us diletantes poking around on the internet as are going to discover a better combo for the money because those guys didn't know about some chart we found, or because they didn't know what some poster on the samba said. Thinking like that is madness, and of course that's part of why we're here, but eventually one must simply accept that the earth is round.  

Michael, I don't doubt you're 100% right. I'm continually trying to glean as much info as possible while ensuring not to shoot myself in the foot. I'm even leaning toward keeping my order from Greg totally stock, then building a true performance car on the side - with all those idiosyncratic features dealers don't offer and are too expensive to pay other people to do.

Joel.

You seem like a good guy, just trying to get his head around this thing, so I'm going to break my personal rule and give it to you straight, without thinking too hard about how you'll take it. Please understand that I'm in your corner, and am trying to help you to embrace this hobby in a way that will save you many tens of thousands of dollars along the way.

You're at least 2 builds and many, many (many) greenback United States dollar bills away from even knowing what you want for sure. This is not an indictment of you personally, but regardless of your experience with ANY other car/truck/van/motorcycle/airplane/boat, this thing is like not like any other thing you've driven. These cars will make you think you can have it all, but you can't. You pay your money and you pick your poison.

I'm not saying you can't have what you are asking for, I'm saying that the entire approach - from the 3.44 RP to the details of the way Greg builds his engines is working against it. The exhaust works with his ethos for what a Speedster should be, and he's built dozens. He's not building to a price-point, he's building the very best car he knows how. It's just not like a 600-class sportbike, because it has a wide-ratio 4-speed. It needs torque, unless you want to be spinning 5000 RPM out on the freeway (you probably don't).

Drive what Greg wants to give you before you decide to color outside the lines. You may enjoy this flavor more than you think you will.

Thanks, Stan. I would never be upset with someone offering me their true thoughts - good, bad or other; especially someone who has more experience (pretty much everyone on SOC). Cicero said it best: I am not ashamed to admit I'm ignorant of what I do not know. Hence, I just need to get a mechanical engineering PHd and I'll be all caught up.

I can't speak for other people, but I certainly don't have a PhD. I don't think Stan has one either. We are very similar in our approach to the clown car phenomenon though.

We want, no EXPECT more from these cars. We're both trying to whip up the perfect souffle of aircooled perfection.

We both came up through the school of hard knocks, and came about learning mechanical stuff by skinning our knuckles, over and over. Sometimes we're learning, sometimes not.

Stan is 100% right here, and it took me a LONG time to figure it out.

Pick the ONE task you want your car to perform well, and make it do that. But you'll need some seat time to figure out what that is.

You want a little-to-no-maintenance beach cruiser? Emulate MusbJim.

You want a drag racer? Talk to Ron Lummus at RLR.

You want a really good all-around Speedster? Talk to Mitch, who knows well the way of the 5 speed.

You want a fire-breathing mountain slayer? Talk to Stan.

I'm one of those weird Spyder guys, don't listen to me. But if we're ever in the same place, I can tweak your carbs for you.

A PhD?!?

I've been called a "pud", but I think that's different. I'm a pipefitter.

My car's no fire-breathing mountain slayer, but it scoots through the mountains. What it can (and does) do well is travel long distances briskly and with as little drama as possible, then arrive wherever I'm going and not become an embarrassment. It's a classic GT - I've stepped over the line twice now with overly complicated thuggery in my engine-room, and always get pulled back to a more pedestrian engine setup because at the end of the day, I want to drive the car back home.

I wanted one car that would do it all for 15 years, before I just gave into reality. If I want Brutus, I need to build a second car. This one can't be everything I want it to be. In biking terms, you can ride a 600-class sport bike coast to coast, but you won't enjoy it. You can take your bagger HD on the ToD or Rattler, but you'll just be a miserable bottleneck like every other mother's son who does it anyhow. You can build a fizzy, frenetic Speedster, but you'll probably not care for it in very many applications.

It takes some of us a while to know what we want. It took me a long while, but that's because I AM a "pud".

The guy who's unsung as a genius and a hero is @Jack Crosby. I remember when Jack was contemplating a T4 from Raby and we were corresponding. I assumed he wanted a "street machine" - a stoplight hero. He did not. He knew exactly what he wanted, and Jake Raby listened to him and built it. Jack's car covers timezones like most people cover mile-makers on the highway. Jack is not a young man, but Jack and his bride pile in their Speedster and head off to Carlisle or Brevard (or Tierra Del Fuego for all I know) just as a matter of course. Jack knew what he wanted and hit the bullseye.

Meanwhile, I've been through 4 different engines in my speedster since Jack had his built, each time looking for the secret sauce.

Don't be like Stupid-Stan. Just take the engine Greg wants to give you.

No PhD, here either. My Dad managed to get through 11th grade before the war and picked up a few classes here and there. He ended up running the surgical pathology labs at a major university hospital, writing 3 books, being granted 42 patents, and serving as president of the American Society of Medical Technology.

I picked up a few more degrees in psychology and special education and used them for about 10 years. I then went on to the things that were challenging to me at that point.

I never got the education that would match what I was doing. I just looked to my Dad for inspiration. If you can read (and find YouTube videos these days), you can do an enormous amount of things without bowing at the feet of gods of the higher ed process. But, if you want to be a tenured professor, you gotta do it.

On the other hand, my daughter has a PhD and she makes 10 to 20 to 30 times as much as I do while her husband stays home.

I don't know what this has to do with exhaust systems.  Another fine example of thread drift.

PhD.........Hmmmmm.........Public highschool Diploma. ??.......Bruce

Getting the car right on the first try. Wouldn’t that be awesome. Took me 3 spyders to find perfection. I can’t think of one thing that I would do differently with my 3rd build. Love the color. Love the quick revving Suby. Greg geared the LSD transmission perfectly. Just bought some Coco mats threw them in the car and that’s it. Turn the key and enjoy.
I do worry often if I’m making the right decision with my 356 build. I’ve enjoyed my Suby Spyder so much. Building a monster Type 4 has been a real leap of faith. I hope my 2nd 356 checks all the boxes.  Time will tell. Still think I’m looking at 18 months.

PhD - piled higher and deeper.

Enjoyed your post, Stan---like many of them.  Made me feel happy---thanks for that. And I have printed and saved quite  few of yours.  See you in the Smokies later this year!

@aircooled posted:

PhD.........Hmmmmm.........Public highschool Diploma. ??.......Bruce

My dad was discussing degrees one time while we were all at dinner and this is what my mom said that the letters stood for:

BS Degree = Bull $hit

MS Degree = More $hit

PhD = Piled Higher and Deeper

Our parents said if we wanted to go to college that was our choice. They encouraged it but didn't demand it.