Paint Finish

My 08 VS Speedster Has some swirles in the paint that only show up in the very bright sunlight. The high end body shop I talked with Suggested he could buff and polish these out, He also suggests a Teflon coating to protect the finish that would also help with the swirls. With this Teflon coating he says no more waxing.Cost between$200/$300. My car is red with a Diamond Clear coat finish from the factory. Is anyone familar with Tefon Coating??? What do you think?? Thanks Dan

Save your money---Stop by an auto body supply house (not an auto parts store). Explain your situation and they will give you a product to take care of this---probably 3m microglaze or similar. Also visit autobody101.com and search your question there.
No big deal. Good luck!!

Dan--I recently had the same problem with the paint on my '07 VS. In addition to swirls the paint was just sorta dull and without the great shine I wanted. I had it color sandad and buffed and it turned out spectacular. All I did after that was to wax it with a great wax that Lane Anderson recommended and I won 2nd place at a car show right after that. It does look good.

I don't know about a teflon coating. Seek advice here as you ae doing.

Good luck with your car.---Jack

Teflon coating is the stuff dealers have been charging folks out the wazoo for on their new cars for years. I don't think it's worth the money. Do what Jack did. It'll cost as much, but the results will be worth it. Then a twice yearly coat of P21S and you'll be golden.

Do not pay that for teflon treatment-rip off!!!

You must wax or use a sealant on your paint regularly. There is no way around it. Your paint needs protection from UV's and contaminants that attack your paint on a daily basis and a wax or sealant is the way to do it.

Swirls are created by improper washing and drying, and of course improper polishing and buffing. It occurs due to debris being dragged across the paint and pushed into the paint with a sponge or towel. They are scratches in the paint. The only way to get rid of them is to level off the paint by buffing it out. You want to use the least aggressive method to avoid removing a lot of paint in the process.

Go to meguiarsonline.com and check out the video on how to properly wash and dry your car using a 2 bucket method. You can seach for swirl removal as well to see the process involved in correcting the paint properly.

If you need a detailer in your area I would suggest going to autopia.org and posting a request for someone in your region. Most likely they will have links to their work so you can get an idea of what they do.

I would NOT allow a bodyshop to buff out my paint unless you know what process the workers are using and are familiar with their work. Most body shops do poor work in buffing allowing a low paid worker buff the paint and it causes problems like holograms and swirls throughout. The problem is that most customers are not aware of this and accept the work as is.

Seems like the shop you took it to was trying to make some $ by selling you something you do not need. For that $300 you could have your car taken care of by a professional detailer that knows his craft and not some hack at the local car wash.

THANK YOU BRUCE,JACK,LANE AND BRANDON. THE HELP I HAVE RECEIVED IS YET ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF WHY THIS SITE IS SO GREAT. I HAVE DECIDED TO HOLD OFF ON DOING ANYTHING UNTIL I HAVE DONE SOME MORE RESEARCH, I DID STOP AT ESSEX DETAILING ESSEX CT HE HAD LAMBORGINI,STREET RODS, FORD WOODIE, PORSCHE THAT HE WAS WORKING ON, 3 TO 4 MONTH LEAD TIME BEFORE HE COULD GET TO ME. HE SUGGESTED I TALK WITH MEGUIARS AND DO IT MYSELF USING THEIR PRODUCTS. HE THOUGHT THE WORK I NEEDED WAS VERY MINOR AND FOLLOWING THEIR DIRECTIONS IT WOULD COME OUT PERFECT. I WILL LET YOU KNOW. THANKS AGAIN

Bring it to Carlisle, swirls and all. Mine has several years worth of road rash, and some of the others are also less than pristine. Remember, these are made to be driven. The rest is just window dressing.

Adams Car Care Products are at some of the Carlisle Shows. However, not sure if they are scheduled to be at the Import Show but....when they are there, they detail cars FOR FREE using their products....
My neighbor had his C6 Vette done at last year's Spring Carlisle it was beautiful! ~Alan
Contact " Adams" and inquire.
http://www.adamspolishes.com/c-24-cleaners.aspx
Event (Adams) contact: Jason@AdamsPolishes.com

No problem. You can definately do it yourself. You need to be realistic though that is it going to take some time and there is a learning curve so that is what you are paying them for-mainly experience. In addition, most likely you will need at least a random orbital and pads. You will probably have to wash, clay, then tape off then polish with the random orbital (probably 2 step polish one medium and one final), then use your wax or sealant. It can be done.

If you want a great DVD that shows how to use the random orbital and the steps involved I would suggest this one:
http://www.autodetailingsolutions.net/pcdvd.html

Also, if you go to the Meguiarsonline site they do offer classes and even though most are in CA they do travel once in a while-you will learn a lot.

You have to remember the initial outlay for the products, machine, pads, good microfibers, and storage containers is going to set you back $300+.

Here are some good retailers:
http://www.autodetailingsolutions.net/index.html
http://exceldetail.com/
http://autogeek.net/
http://pakshak.com/

And for learning there are these sites (everything from proper washing and drying(remember this is where most of the dmg occurs) to full blown details):
autopia.org
meguiarsonline.com
showcardetailing.com

Good luck and have fun with it-and post some pics when you are done.

Dan, People are lazy and always lean towards; special treatments,space-age goo and cure alls rather than do the job right from the start. The truth is the person who buffed out your car caused and then left those swirls in your finish. Thats when he thought "not only is that good, it's good enough". He skipped the last step where he was supposed to take those "power tool swirls" out of the paint. It's very simple just takes a little effort.
Looky here:
http://www.autobody101.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7290&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=swirls+removal&start=0

THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYBODY A BIG HELP BRANDON YOU MUST BE A PROFESSIONAL DETAILER WHERE DID YOU LEARN ALL THAT??? I AM GOING TO FOLLOW MEGUIARS RCOMENDATION APPLYING THEIR SWIRLX BY HAND MY PROBLEM IS VERY MINOR IF THAT DOESNT WORK ILL TAKE THE NEXT STEP SEE YA DAN

Well, it is clear that I have A LOT to learn. All info here taken under advisement. While Lane's remark about cars meant to be driven is very much on target, for me anyway, one nevertheless wants to do right by his paint job, and there is no harm in doing it right as that often takes as much or maybe even less energy than doing it wrong. Here is something that goes toward amusement, vs. info, but then again everything is realtive, and so maybe some one of us will find this to be just the right thing. Anyway, I had a brochure from RaggTopp tucked in to the materials delivered w/ the car, and figured that this stuff would be right for my top and toneau. A cleaner and a waterproofing treatment. No big deal, just do it. So I go online to find out where to buy, and come upon Emmons Coachworks, Ltd., and they have the stuff for about $40.00. Ordered the kit for cloth tops, and it arrived in a day -- very fast. Along with the goods came an Emmons printed catalog, and I will quote to you the first item listed therein: "Vintage Glaze is based on a cutom formula developed for the 1946 Bentley MarkVI Cabriolet by Franay, winner if several "Best in Shows" in its debut year on the Concours circuit. Vintage contains protective ingredients including honeydew, cantaloupe and sunflower oils. 61% Brazilian No 1 White Carnauba by volume. May be used on all paint types and colors. Item 1999, 22 oz. for a mere $2,184.00 plus postage." Lest you think that might be a tad high, be advised that the price includes free refills for life, so is obviously a very good deal.

So, where were we on this spit and polish question . . .

"Whosoever shall primer his ride shall never needeth trouble himself unto wax."
-- The Gospel according to St. Rustoleum

Yep, been detailing a while now.

This is what I would suggest. Watch the 2 bucket car wash video and the detailing clay video here at Meguiars.

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=134

Then read the how to remove swirls by hand posts:
http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7011
http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1516

Then once you understand that you need to wash propery with two buckets and then dry with a quality microfiber towel, and protect your car with a wax or sealant then you are on the right track. Waxes typically get broken down quickly and are almost completely gone in most cases in 60-90 days. Sealants last longer and over the years the technology has been advanced that is some cases it is difficult to tell if their is a wax or sealant on a cars paint.

This is what I would suggest you buy if doing it by hand:
1. (2) wash buckets (maybe different colors), write Wash on one and Rinse on the other
2. A nice sheepskin wash mit or the individual grout sponges at the hardware store are really good at releasing the dirt in the Rinse bucket.
3. (2) good microfiber drying towels for the paint (not for wheels or anything else-just the paint)
4. A name brand car shampoo-Meguiars is good
5. Meguiars clay kit-comes in a box with the clay and detail spray you use for lubrication
6. Meguiars scratch X
7. Meguiars yellow applicator pads
8. Wax or sealant
9. 5-6 high quality microfiber towels for polishing and removing the wax or sealant

That will get you going. Start by washing using the two bucket method using car shampoo (dont use dish washing liquid as it will strip everything). Make sure you are gentle with the sponge and just go to the wash bucket for soap and be gentle on the paint and then go to the rinse bucket and squeeze the wash mitt out then back into the wash buckt for more soap. Once you are done washing the car take the nozzle off the hose and rinse the whole car with just the flow of the water coming from the hose. Let the gravity sheet most of the water off. Then pull your car in the garage so pollen etc will not get on the car and get out your two drying towels. The first drying towel will get most of the water and follow up with the second one to get the rest. Then you should be ready to use the clay. Basically it removes bonded contaminats that you can feel on your paint with your hand. You spray the clay bar and the paint with the detail spray and gently rub the clay over the surface. You will see it get dark. Then fold the clay and continue. After that is done get your Scratch X and a yellow applicator pad and a microfiber towel. You really need to work this stuff hard back and fourth (your shoulder will get a workout), then clean up the residue with a clean microfiber. You may just want to work on one panel and pull it back out into the sunlight to see if you are achieving your desired results before doing the whole car and once you dial in something that works then go to work on the whole car. Once you are done with the polish then put your selant or wax on, let it set up and then gently buff it off with a clean microfiber. You can then wash your microfibers in the washing maching with regular detergent and no bleach then store your supplies in a plastic bin for the next outting.

There are a lot of good How To sections on some of those links especially on the Meguiarsonline.com forums and on autogeek.net and properautocare.com. Check them out.

What color is your paint-clearcoat or single stage?

Post photos when you are done!

Your timing couldn't be better. Tomorrow is the day of "The Big Pre-Carlisle Cleanup", and I have some scratches/swirls from last fall when I used old Mequiar's Swirl Remove with my random orbital buffer. I've been using P21S (love it!) for several years, and was out of practice with the buffer. I also think the Swirl Remover had degraded from a couple of years in a hot garage. The result was a lot of spider-web scratches all over the car. I've used some of Griot's Fine Hand Polish once, with some success, but I will obviously need to spend some time and effort on it tomorrow. Too bad it's likely to be our first warm, humid weekend. Oh well. I have plenty of micro fiber towels. Just hope it doesn't get too god-awful hot tomorrow.

I'm adding this thread to my "favorites"! Brandon, great and thorough contribution here.

HOW DO U ADD TO FAVORITES?
NEVER MIND I FOUND IT

Ok, y'all, it's 8:15am. I've already washed the car and Scratch-X-ed the rear end (of the car, Gerd). I am soaked with sweat even though it's in the 70's cuz the humidity is around 200%. Gotta love the Lowcountry.

Whew... Take a break and get back to it...

I clayed my whole car a few days ago using the Meguires kit. Very good results, just clayed light where the paint was good and a little more wherever I saw road grime. Works great. The cleaner wax included was also easy to use.

Theron--I think Brandon's post, above should go into the "Knowledge" section on the site. I will dedfinitely print it and put it in my car maintenance file. Thanks, Brandon.---Jack

HAHA-I like the reply that you are sweating using the scratch X-if you are then you are using it properly!! It is a lot of work to do it by hand but it can be done with some patience.

If you have a garage and can get by with washing, drying, then claying, then you can maybe do a few panels at a time throughout the week if you are not driving your vehicle. That way you will not get worn out and loose your patience. When you come out to do a new panel just get your detail spray from the clay kit and spritz the panel that you plan to work on and gently wipe the dust off with a new microfiber towel then get back to work with the scratch X on that panel.

I saw one of you guys has a random orbital-that is great. You may want to get your hands on some Meguiars #80 and a couple of their yellow polishing pads (I think the part # is w8006-not sure off hand though). That is pretty good at removing mild swirls. Put an "X" of the product on the pad and place it on the paint then turn it on on about a speed of 3 and spread the product on your working area (maybe a 2'x2' section). Then turn up the speed to 5 or 6 and put some moderate pressure on the machine and GO SLOW moving back in forth in one direction then back and forth 90 degrees from your first passes. Then lighten up on your last few passes. The polish should appear almost clear when it is broken down and then you can spritz the panel with your detail spray and remove the polish. Check to see if you are getting the desired results and if so continue on with the rest of the paint. When you are done use your sealant or wax and you should be good to go for a while with just proper washing.

Clay is good to use a few times a year to remove bonded contaminants. You can really feel how smooth the paint is with your hand when you are done claying. Usually the horizontal panels like the front hood and engine deck lid take a beating as well as maybe the 1/4 panels by the tires where tar and debris can be kicked up.

P21S is really nice looking, but it breaks down quickly and is not very long lasting, so if you use it be sure to wax regularly or if you want to prolong the wax there are a lot of spray waxes out there that you can use when drying your car that will help prolong the protection of your wax-may be something to try.

Looking forward to seeing some of your guys photos and hearing about your results.

Have fun, and be patient-remember there is a learning curve.

BRANDON YOUR INFORMATION HAS BEEN GREATLY APPRECIATED BY MANY ON THIS SITE!!! WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO SHARE THE SECRETS TO KEEPING ALUMINUM AND CHROME LOOKING NEW??? ALSO HOW ABOUT THE ENGINE??? THANKS AGAIN DAN

Ditto the aluminum question. I spent an hour yesterday polishing the aluminum spokes on my steering wheel, and it didn't look any better at the end than at the beginning.

I'm a little surprised about your comment that P21S doesn't last very long. I started using it because of the Guru Reports article of a few years back in which they picked it as the best conventional (non glaze) wax, which included compliments on its longevity. I've had similar results as (for me, at least) it lasts a lot longer than the Zymol (paste) and Mequiar's (hi-tech yellow wax) products I used before.

ID LIKE TO SEE PICS OF BRANDONS CAR.
I IMAGINE IT LOOKS SWEET.
BRANDO I USE THE EAGLE WAX AND DRY SPRAY WITH GREAT RESULTS THE LAST 2 AND 1/2 YEARS

BRANDON I SHOULD HAVE SUGGESTED YOU GIVE US YOUR LOCATION IN CASE ANYONE OF OUR MEMBERS WOULD LIKE TO GIVE YOU SOME BUSINESS DAN

I am glad some of you guys can use the info I had posted. I am just passing along some things I have learned over the year.

I cannot empasize this enough, the marring and swirls are related to improper washing and drying or by someone running their hands over your paint with debris on it, so after you polish your car and go to wash it the next time out work on your technique and once you get a system down that works for you stick with it. No more drying with old bath towels or t-shirts etc and if something gets dropped on the ground (like your washing sponge or mitt or boar hair brush) then you should inspect it very closely and maybe consider demoting it for maybe wheels or fender wells instead of the paint since small debris may be caught in it and it will scratch your paint.

Regardless if you go with a sealant or carnuba you need to remember that polishing is the key. Just like painting the results are only as good as your prep-and prep is polishing.

P21S is good stuff and easy to use. If you like it stick with it-I own some and like the looks on some colors. There are other paste waxes that are more expensive like Pinnacle Soverign or Zymol Vintage (like 2.2k to purchase), but as I stated earlier the wax or sealant is only going to look as good as your prep is.

If you like the look of carnuba, but do not want to break the bank I would look into Clearkote Carnuba Moose Wax or Collinate Insulate wax. They both provide very good protection for a liquid carnuba and the Clearkote looks fantastic on black. If you like paste wax there is FK1usa.com which carries 1000P which is under $20 for a tin. Fk1 is a spinoff of Meguiars which product line was developed by a relative of Barry Meguiar. As in all waxes make sure you lay it on thin, let it set up and use a finger to swipe across your paint and if it comes off clear then it is time to remove (gently). You can then add another coat if you would like.

The spray waxes are very good to extend the protection of your wax or sealants and if you have not tried one I would suggest getting a bottle. Very simple to use and you can just spritz the panel before you dry and when you are done drying your paint looks like you have been detailing all day, plus you know you have added protection.

If you want a sealant everyone makes one nowadays. Optimum has Optiseal that is really reasaonable at like $20 and it is just a clear seal. You just spray a little on a sponge applicator and then spread it on the whole panel-a little goes a long ways. The best thing is that you do not have to wipe off afterwards it just bonds to the paint clear. If you put it in too thick you will see wet spots so you will have to spritz with a spray and gently wipe up the excess. Some will put a coat of sealant on and then leave the car in the garage and add another coat some 24 hours later for added protection. Still others will put a sealant on and then top that with a carnuba since they like the protection of the sealant and appearance of the carnuba.

I would suggest going to autopia.org and entering in the product you are thinking about purchasing in the search field to see what others opinions are. Some people are brand loyal which is fine, but once you start playing with these products you will see that different sealants and waxes look different on the same paint. Get one you like and stick with it.

Sorry no real tips on aluminum polishing. It is just elbow grease. You may want to try using a sealant or some protection on polished raw aluminum since it will prolong the time before it starts oxidizing. Most of the new alum wheels are clear coated, so they are taken car of just like your car paint-maybe clay, polish and wax or seal. Just remember you should have specific towels just for wheels since you do not want to use those towels on your paint since brake dust will scratch up your paint badly.

Have fun.

Brandon - Thanks for sharing those detailing tips. I learn something new every time I visit this site!

Peace - Out!

No problem.

Remember polishes come in various grades from a fine polish to a serious abrasive compound. You want to use the least aggressive grade to get the job done since you are leveling the paint to get rid of marring and swirls. In most cases you may have to do a two step polish starting with a medium grade and then finishing with a final polish before using your wax or sealant. It is always best to start with the least aggressive first though and test a small panel to see the outcome. If that works good then give it a go on the rest of the paint.

The advantage to using a machine like a random orbital or rotary is that the heat created by the machine breaks down the polish faster and it turn hurries up the polishing process. Don't kid yourself though it still takes time. You can do it by hand and get pretty good results, but just be patient. Remember that most polishes have diminishing abrasives so you need to work them into the paint and as you do the abrasives get smaller and smaller and end up polishing the paint to a finer finish. Meguiars has good info on their site explaining this. After testing a panel or two you will get an idea how long you have to work the polish for it to fully break down.

Funny thing, I was walking by a local car wash the other day and as I watched the guys dry the vehicles wheels and then use the same towel to wipe the paint I just shook my head. As I approached the car to see the finish in the paint I already knew that it would look like it was washed using steel wool. I understand that not everyone is a car person and do not care or even know what proper detailing is all about, but that is probably what you expect from a $30 wash. You have to remember that brake dust is metal so do not use the same towels on your wheels and paint.

I still suggest buying quality microfibers for your drying, polishing and waxing from a good retailer. It is money well spent, and buy a little plastic bin with a top and wash and store them together. They will last you a long time if properly taken care of.

WOW!! When I said I had a lot to learn -- I had no idea. Head still swimming, and not sure what to do first, which products to use, much less where to get them. I have some Maguires clay and wax and will start there, I guess.

Gotta go re-read all of this again, and follow the links. About a week to go 'til Carlisle, and now I don't think I have enough time . . .

More info...

Meguiars new line of polishes do not have diminishing abrasives so the cut is based on the pad or applicator you are using, your pressure, and the time you work the product. For hand applications the yellow foam applicators would be the least agressive, followed by the microfiber applicators, and then finally the terry cloth applicators.

Meguiar's new products are M105, M86, D151, M205, Ultimate Compound, ScratchX 2.0 and SwirlX. You can read about them on the meguiarsonline forums under the new product section.

Basically you begin working the product with some pressure and then lighten up as you go. Check your work and when you reach the desired result you stop.

You may also want to get a spray bottle at your local hardware store and mix a 50/50 solution of rubbing alcohol and distilled water. Spritz it on the panel and wipe and it should remove all residues and waxes or left over wax or selant residue so that when you are done polishing you are ready to apply your wax or sealant.

Brandon:

You are The Man. Can't thank you enough for laying down the facts about what and how to do.

Check out what guys are doing nowadays with the random orbital and the new polishes. Crazy being able to take out 2000 wet sand marks with a random orbital and come out so well. Only one year ago you would have had to do that with a rotary buffer and if you attempted it with a random orbital it would have taken forever. Now it looks like you can do it faster, and come out just as good with the random orbital. It looks like it has to do a lot with technique, pad choice and pressure, and product type. It may be worth making a trip to Los Angeles and go to one of the Saturday detail classes (which are free -you just have to sign up on their web site) to learn about the new products and techniques, and the most important part hands on learning under the eye of professionals-plus they feed you lunch-haha.

http://www.autopia.org/forum/machine-polishing/116878-surbuf-pad-paired-m105-pc-defect-killer.html

We've actually decided that we will give this a chance on the Monte Carlo we just painted. This really looks like a good product.

angela