This needs attention…..Kibitzing topics of parchment and numerical related assignments need not sprout herein, it is reckless as from time to time others peruse herein. No reply tnx.
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It's only reckless if what you're advocating is illegal. If not, there's nothing to hide from.
Mmmmm-kay? 
Someone's clutch is slipping.
Al is talking about openly discussing and arguing for improper titles, registration, and insurance. He’s right— if someone is advocating for the illegal, it’s probably better to keep it on the down low.
But if the law is followed, there’s nothing to hide from.
Have these comments been deleted? Link to discussion?
Something like this has come up in a couple of discussions here in Massachusetts, too, especially after I sent around my procedure for legally registering a pan-based car here as a Porsche replica. Several push backs from people saying "it'll be alright to keep registering it as a 19XX VW sedan - No one will catch it."
I've got news for ya. They will, and you'll be walking til you make it right. Maybe worse.
So, whats the clear path forward if you purchased a car with a vw pan/vin and it has always always always been titled as a vw? Say... Its a cmc body and you never had a reciept for the "body", pan, motor (major components)?
What are those folks to do? California needs to provide a clear path for those people.
As complicated at the registration process can be, especially here on the west coast, there is almost always a way to get on the road legally. I can’t say with certainty what the clear path is, but I’m confident there is one. Especially in California where just about everything has some sort of rule or regulation attached.
I agree that ANY discussion about circumventing ANY proper process should never be discussed in an open forum such as this. At the risk of being prudish, there isn’t a reason to discuss them at all in that they are nothing more than an attempt to do something the “easy” way. Not only that, but the trouble you think you are avoiding generally comes back exponentially!
It's discussed because the individual state laws are so unclear and confusing - even to their own DMV employees! Hell, Texas no longer registers anything that looks like a dune buggy or has dune buggy on the title (and dune buggies have been on the roads for 50 years with most costing over $10k). The UK does not allow "cut and shut" cars - where the front of one is welded to the rear of another. I don't think it is illegal in any US state(?) Salvage title are often given if a car is stolen and the just the interior is missing. Some states don't even issue titles for car over 25 years old - how does that help legitimize a car. I used to think it was financial - to ensure they collected taxes on that home built Ford power Cobra replica but not sure any more with the move in Texas. I don't think it was ever safety as most states do some inspection of the vehicle.
Clear path is what the home state requires, some exempt, some require enhanced inspections, NJ requires an DMV engineer inspect the car and reissues a new Vin . PA requires a MV426B an Enhanced Inspection, requires VW pan title receipts ( if available of a Bill of Sale from the Seller then reissues a new VIN
.....But if the law is not followed, you're at some risk per se.
In CA, a sheriff had a replica replica Cobra and claimed minimal sales tax and had a company in Ala. produce a permanent Reg. Said Reg was then conveyed to Ca. a Title was issued fora 2 door Ford Then CA discovered from Cobra spilling his beans that said Ala company had issued thousands of Regs than landed in CA hence the Sate Sale Tax Dept became way pissed at the funds lost and heads rolled. Ala Company owner R1chard Weavr was indited in CA and sentenced to the Grey Bar Hotel.
The End
I misunderstood the initial comments; I was under the impression members were trying to find a “work around”.
I entirely agree that, with each State having different rules and regulations, sharing information between members is incredibly beneficial. In fact, I see myself moving out of California as soon as I can...and taking my VS with me! I’m sure I’ll be looking for advice when that time comes...
All of us make choices about which laws we obey, which ones we ignore. I'm no different. I was ticketed 3 years ago in my replica for speeding. I knew what the law was and chose to ignore it. What I didn't do was whine about how confusing and unfair the posted speed limit sign was, its poor location, the sneaky CHP guy, yada, yada. I've been legally driving for almost 60 years, and have sufficient familiarity with the California Vehicle Code to know I took a chance and I paid the price.
California vehicle owners have had the chance for at least 7 years to legally register their replicas through the SB 100 specialty construction process. Some do, some don't. Ya pays yer money, and ya takes yer chances.
Can the process be confusing? Certainly. Will you find DMV employees that are unfamiliar with its application? Of course. There are 35 million registered vehicles in California, and only 500 SB 100 permits are awarded annually. However, if you're smart enough to read this reply and type your own response, you're smart enough to figure out how to register your car legally.
The arguments presented about California's failure to present a clear path to legal registration are a non-starter for me. They don't seem to be presented by owners who have tried to follow the law and failed. They are owners who haven't even tried to conform.
For the record, I believe that forums such as ours are the ideal locations for replica owners to discuss matters of concern to individuals and groups of owners who are grappling with all sorts of issue, legal registration being one of them.
I would be concerned if I bought used if the proper process was not followed having said that here we can register a hand built car with some fun and an affidavit but there is still no guarantee that other insurance companies outside of Haggerty will insure you.
Having said all of that most of my life I have found myself pushing the enveloppe and with this car it just seems to continue.
As Jim said we chose to obey those rules we want to obey.
A really old philosopher said every rule was meant to be broken. I find this to be true, and as we move along there is a predominance in those who have chosen to work for big brother to think that all of us cannot think for ourselves or govern ourselves and there must be a continual growth of regulations in all areas of life, trades, professions etc. It does seem to me that it cannot continue without the process of natural selection only choosing large multi-national companies and governments and reducing choice or service to the end user. There may be a day where a home owner is prohibited from doing anything on his home etc. Well enough said.
I would be much more concerned about all of this if someone was trying to hide the ownership of the car being registered, but that is not the case here.
All that's happening here, is that one self righteous, pompous person, insists upon drawing attention to something that could potentially impact hundreds of owners who are simply trying to enjoy their cars and haven't caused harm to anyone.
You may be referring to me, Troy. My suggestion is that you don't attack the messenger, and instead stay focused on the issues. You may want to familiarize yourself with the California Vehicle Code sections on registration of replicas. If a vehicle no longer resembles the body which the VIN indicates, e.g., a 1967 VW, it can't be registered as such. I'm sure you already know this, but choose to ignore it. I'm not concerned with how you conduct your business, but I'm trying to inform others who may want to comply with CA statutes.
Not sure what you mean when you say: "hundreds of owners . . . haven't caused harm to anyone." Isn't that the same defense Boyd Coddington used when California convicted him of title fraud?
If our industry doesn't police itself and change practices that most of know are clearly illegal, the government will do it for us. Then the scofflaws will object loudly about the greedy state stepping on individual rights, governments only want the money, etc. My suggestion is that we avoid the eventual clash by using legal methods of registration already available.
My post regarding was misunderstood and went wayward. I was saying this subject should be avoid being posted as there are lurkers that peruse sites. Hence, someone wanting to make a name for themselves and a notch up an agency's ladder may get the the wrong impression as the majority of these cars have the proper credentials.
Alan Merklin posted:My post regarding was misunderstood and went wayward. I was saying this subject should be avoid being posted as there are lurkers that peruse sites. Hence, someone wanting to make a name for themselves and a notch up an agency's ladder may get the the wrong impression as the majority of these cars have the proper credentials.
Not sure I agree with lurkers making a name for themselves. Vintage Speedsters built/sold 5,000 of these cars and every one was registered the same way. It’s hard to believe someone didn’t know what was going on. I doubt Kirk was paying the yearly reg fees on all those VW pans he had in stock. They would have been reg’d as PNO, or Planned Non Op, and after he built a car the fees paid. Someone had to notice there was a huge gap between the PNO and the new registration and how many he was registering
Anyway, members/owners of these cars have been getting pulled over and ticketed for years and no one has ever mentioned being told to reregister their car. Teby S got popped last year and ticketed and the CHP officer said nothing about the car being reg’d as a VW.
I’m not saying anything about the legality of the reg process, just doubting that anyone is perusing forums looking for scofflaws. If someone gets stopped and is asked about the way it’s registered, they will just say that that is how they bought it or that is how is was when they got it from the manufacturer. They may get a citation for improper reg but I doubt they’ll get hauled off to jail.
Troy Sloan posted:I would be much more concerned about all of this if someone was trying to hide the ownership of the car being registered, but that is not the case here.
All that's happening here, is that one self righteous, pompous person, insists upon drawing attention to something that could potentially impact hundreds of owners who are simply trying to enjoy their cars and haven't caused harm to anyone.
WOW! Them's fightin' words if said to a guys face, Troy. Doesn't lose impact because you posted it on the interweb.
You might want to apologize for the characterization, but that's up to you.
Hawaii titles them as "Street Rod Replica's" after nitpicking safety checks...
Re. registering a replica in Connecticut. It never occurred to me that this could be an issue and obviously something I should resolve before i buy one. Does anyone have experience in this?
@Jim. I'm sorry you thought I might have been referring to you, but I wasn't.
@Panhandle. I was being gentle with my characterization.
Here is a link to the NY State of taxes DMV site:
https://dmv.ny.gov/forms/vs100.pdf It clearly explains the registration process step by step. I went through it without a hitch. It took plenty of time. The safety review complained about the size of the tail lights.... I convinced them with several more photos and a rubbing of the markings on the lenses that they were legit for that car. I am not saying this is an easy process to follow. However, if you follow it you have a legal vehicle at the end of the day, no..... weeks of running around. I am now with Haggerty Ins since they were purchased by Allstate.
I don’t have a clue as to how Connecticut expects you to register a replica there - the best way to find out would be to start with “how to register a car replica in Connecticut” on Google and go from there.
Massachusetts has a very detailed process that has been followed by very few in the past. Everything changed last October when they hired a third party to police the inspection process. When you get your car inspected now, the entire process is monitored at a remote site. The monitor has at least two two screens in front of them:
One pops up your current registration info; VIN, description, title info, etc. It can also pop up your VIN from a database showing what that VIN represents (and a title history). In my case, that would show a red VW sedan converted to a white VW convertible, both 1969 and the title history since new, as it was originally purchased new in Dedham, MA., although it has a gap for when registered in South Carolina, but that will be fixed, I’m told, later this year.
The other screen shows what is going on in the inspection bay. If the first screen shows a white VW Beetle convertible and they see a white Porsche Speedster sitting there, They can hit a “REJECT” button which will trigger a lot of visits to the DMV and a lot of ‘splaining til you either correct your VIN/Title/Registration to that of the appropriate replica or simply stay off the road. We get issued a new Massachusetts VIN for a replica with the description of what our car replicates (which makes sense) and then a new title with the new VIN and description and, finally, a new registration. They all must match to get on the road, but that accurately describes our vehicle to anybody....Local cop, state cop (any state), or DMV officer (again, any state). It sounds like the major PITA it is to those of us who must re-title and re-register, but it’s a hell of a lot closer to reality than driving around in something that doesn’t even remotely resemble what the paperwork says, right?
Hi Troy,
No worries, my mistake and apologies.
Troy Sloan posted:@Jim. I'm sorry you thought I might have been referring to you, but I wasn't.
@Panhandle. I was being gentle with my characterization.
Wow, again! Hope you have the stones to say whatever you have to say directly to that person.
Gordon, thanks for that detailed response. I completely agree that complying with the requirements to register it as a replica is the way to go and worth even the considerable effort. Furthermore, it makes sense that it should be registered as the vehicle it so obviously looks like. I'm googling now as you suggested. Thanks again.
Gordon, the search phrase you suggested took me straight to the source: Ct DMV and revealed a trove of valuable information. CT registers replicas as "Composites" and has very specific detailed requirements for compliance. Most of the documentation required can only be provided by the builder. I now consider myself forewarned and armed and will be certain that these documents can be provided before I purchase anything. Had I not seen the posts on this subject, I have no idea the trouble I might have gotten into. My thanks to you, Safety Jim and everyone else.
Ed; I truly wish that I knew of someone in CT who has researched replica registration, pan based or framed, as much as I have up here in Mass. and could help you out. Even something already written which outlines the official process and translates it into simple English would be great. Unfortunately, I have Bupka so far, so maybe YOU might be that person. Start reading through it and try to document the process in five or six easy steps so that others might follow it. Try to distinguish between manufactured frame cars (think Beck or IM) with a manufacturer’s VIN (which can be used as-is) or pan-based cars (CMC, VS/JPS) with a VW VIN which must be updated to something new. They are treated radically differently up here - don’t know what they are looking for in the Nutmeg state. Manufactured frame cars up here REALLY get screwed. Old VW pan cars, not so much, but you still need receipts for anything new used in the build, like new engine, tranny, body, etc, to prove that nothing stolen was used. If it was built, then the certificate of origin and invoice will do it.
And remember, before you get that coveted windshield sticker, you have to go through a safety/“accuracy” inspection where they can fail you for any number of nit picky things.
Carl in Connecticut had a VS that somehow was registered as a real 57 Porsche - he said he nearly fainted when they handed him the tax bill. He did square it away but not without stress. His son has his car now but I think in FL.
Those with annual emissions inspects also need to watch how they register it. A dual carbed cam'd 1915cc air cooled engine will not meet current exhaust sniffer emission testing - forget then about the new ODB2 port test (which didn't exist pre-'76 air cooled days). So if they register it as the year it was built, you will have problems. That's where a computer controlled EFI Subaru engine would be great.
Some think it cool to have it registered as a 1957 Porsche Speedster - only to have it valued for taxes (argh, yearly personal property tax on Blue book value in VA). A '57 real Speedster easily tops $150k. Be sure it at east says replica too.
Then there are European import requirements (Australia seems weird too). Often in Europe you have to prove it was actually built 30 years ago --- not just built on a 30+ year old VW pan. Often they want specs from the manufacturer - CMC has been out of business since 1994 and all their paperwork went to a dumpster.
HI Guys! In Canada (at least the province of Ontario) there is a procedure you must go through to legally get your replica on the road and make it emission exempt. It's not that big of a deal and well worth the trouble especially if you want a vehicle that you can sell down the road with no hassles for the next owner. That being said you cannot import an assembled replica into Canada unless it is 15 years old or older.
edwardsimonian posted:Gordon, the search phrase you suggested took me straight to the source: Ct DMV and revealed a trove of valuable information. CT registers replicas as "Composites" and has very specific detailed requirements for compliance. Most of the documentation required can only be provided by the builder. I now consider myself forewarned and armed and will be certain that these documents can be provided before I purchase anything. Had I not seen the posts on this subject, I have no idea the trouble I might have gotten into. My thanks to you, Safety Jim and everyone else.
Ed, I built my CMC back in the eighties in CT and you need to have the origin of the donor parts your using. I had the title for the body from CMC and a bill of sale for the 1975 VW that I used for engine and pan.
I had heard about all the horror stories of trying to register so I sent my paper work off to Alabama and had a title issued for the car which many years later ( 20) I used to register the car here in North Carolina as it never completed the CT process.
My brother in law built a Factory Five Cobra and went through the process in CT and he lucked out because it was the inspectors last day and it had to be trailerd to DMV.
The one thing to remember is that emission requirements are based on the year of the vehicle or in CT at the time I was building it was based on the engine year.
I would contact Factory Five which is in Mass. and they would be a good source for this information as they still offer the composite (kit) build for people that want to go that route and they have clients in CT.
What I learned from my 43 years living in the nutmeg state, when it comes to dealing with the DMV, smile always no matter what your blood is telling you and through the whole process always deal with the same person. I would let people jump in front of me just so that I could deal with my original point of contact.
AND.. the tax man is watching and never as Gordon eluded to, register it with the "P" word.
Good luck
Ed:
As you've already discovered, there is a lot of conflicting info out there and you really want to title/register your Connecticut car as a 1957 Porsche REPLICA or, as the CT DMV refers to it, a "Composite". It will require an inspection to determine how realistic it is to the original - it doesn't have to be an exact copy, just enough to satisfy the eye of the DMV or State Police inspector (they're pretty fair). If it has the original engine or one replicating the original, it will get an emissions waiver. That includes a Subaru, but those are treated differently, depending on a number of factors that you would have to sort out with the DMV.
If you're serious about buying/registering a 356 replica in Connecticut, then PM me and I'll give you the contact info for the two guys at Factory Five who are knowledgeable about getting their cars registered across the country. They might be able to help. I would STRONGLY recommend that you contact the club officers at the Ty-Rods Hot Rod Club. They are based in Vernon, CT. and have people knowledgeable to help. http://www.ty-rods.org/index.html
gn
The laws regarding component vehicles can be pretty strange. And pretty flexible, apparently, as the story of "glider" trucks illustrates.
I suspect just one of these semis, given the miles they're driven, pollutes more than all the kit car/replicas on the road combined.
edsnova posted:I suspect just one of these semis, given the miles they're driven, pollutes more than all the kit car/replicas on the road combined.
Odd, no?
WOLFGANG posted:Those with annual emissions inspects also need to watch how they register it. A dual carbed cam'd 1915cc air cooled engine will not meet current exhaust sniffer emission testing - forget then about the new ODB2 port test (which didn't exist pre-'76 air cooled days). So if they register it as the year it was built, you will have problems. That's where a computer controlled EFI Subaru engine would be great.
All factory ECU from 1996 on have an OBD2 port. Before that(early 90s to late 80s?) they had OBD I, but I don't believe that is required by DOT.
Ed & Others,
Gordon's response above regarding contacting local car clubs about registration is particularly appropriate, and here's why: Many of us have had a less than satisfactory experience with DMV employees when registering or trying to register our replicas. In many cases, our application may be the first one the clerk has seen, since we're such a small percentage of vehicles in any state.
What a local car club sometimes does is to name a particular DMV office, and sometimes a particular clerk at that office, who knows the system of replica registration. This is very helpful to a replica owner who is already stressed at the thought of "passing muster" with the powers that be. One thing we should always keep in mind: it never hurts to be polite in these matters. You know how it goes: We're nervous applicants, who may know more about the process than the clerk, whose job it is to do the registration. It may be a time for thoughtful suggestions, not commands, eh? We don't need to act like schoolboys with our hat in our hand, but good manners never hurts.
Best of luck and please keep the group informed, especially about a motor vehicle employee who is knowledgeable and helpful.
All great suggestions! I will follow your advice - everyone's - and I think I'll make my way successfully through the process. Well, let's put it this way: I'm much more apt to have success now, than before any of these discussions took place. I'll definitely document my experience and share it with all.
I attended a funeral this morning for one of the members of the Connecticut Street Rod Association (who was also a Ty-Rods member, too). There were people there from both the CSRA (based in Wallingford) and the Ty-Rods club (and a LOT of street rods that showed up) so I got a chance to ask about this. Of course, in the Hot Rod clubs you get the same bias as in the PCA that “if it’s not steel, it’s not real” but there is a sizeable number of fiberglass Hot Rods out there and, as Jim said, both of those organizations can certainly help someone registering a replica in CT. Use their contact page to email the club officers for help, or check out their newsletter page for better officer contact info.