Phantom Horn

This weekend I noticed that one of the wires was disconnected from my horn. So I connected it. Did not take long to find why the previous owner disconnected it. It honks every time I turn the wheel. I assume a short somewhere. I tried the easy place behind the horn button and all looks good. I read in Keeping My VW alive that the problem is generally where the wire exits the steering column at the steering box. I put the car on ramps and looked underneath and the only wire I could find was one connected with a spade lug to what appears to be a metal tube through which the steering colum runs. No other wires. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

TM

Look for a wire near the coupling between the steering rod and the steering box.

Jerome

Or ...one of the two tabs on the back side of the horn button are hitting the steering shaft nut.
Alan M

I recently put a new horn wire through the shaft. Look under the car as you did. What I saw was the end of the steering column sort of has a end that looks a little like a strainer. That is where a wire pokes out and clips into a switch. From the switch it goes to the horn on one side and the other horn is connected in series.

I thought OH GOD, I pulled the wire out of the shaft. But it really wasn't that bad to put a new one down through it. Just make sure you have a comfortable position under the car because you'll be on your back fiddling with a wire that needs to poke through that strainer type hole.

I suspect that you need to change your wire because turning the wheel is making the wire touch metal. Your wire is probably chaffed.

The horn is activated by the wire GROUNDING. The horn is always active.

I ran into exactly what Mike just described above.

I also had my turn signal slip on the column once on a trip. On the roadside I just tightened the screw on the bottom of the column.... then when I signaled right the horn would beep. Fixed it by simply loosening the signal screw and turning the arm down a notch on the column and retightening.

Troy,

I have a similar issue. My steering column binds with my indicator lever witch shorts the column and activates the horn. I have been living with it; correcting the steering wheel the few times it happens. Perhaps confirming the proper adjustments around the column will help you?

Scott.

Well I found where the wire exits the steering column under the car. I tied a cord to the horn end and pulled a few inches down under the car and all looks good no frayed wire, no missing insulation. I have also loosened and moved my durn signal switch and still the horn honks when the wheel is turned. Could the short be in the middle somewhere or am I missing something?

Now for the fun question. Do you suppose that if I soldered a new wire on the steering wheel end and covered it with shrink tube do you think I could pull the wire all the way through and have a new wire. Sounds kind of simple so someone must have thought of it first.

Thanks folks
TM

Yes - minus the extra shrink tube I've done exactly that several times.

Just get a #16 - #18 wire with good insulation, solder it onto the old one and pull it through - no big deal. Before you do that, though, get an ohmeter, remove the wire from the horn button and connect the ohmeter to the horn wire, then turn the wheel lock to lock and see if it's the culprit - sometimes it's the horn button itself, and sometimes the wire has worn against the inside of the steering column - best to isolate which is at fault so you don't change out the wrong one.

Horn button disconnected and horn still honks when wheel is turned. It seems like it must be a shorted wire or am I missing something? Just want to be sure before I replace the wire.

Yup, you've got a chafed and shorted wire. Pull a new one through as outlined above and you should be all set.

gn

This is driving me nuts. I pulled the wire all the way through and inpected it and no frays no breaks. The car was made in 01 and the wire looks new. I fact except for where it exits the steering column (dirt & grease) it is clean and looks brand new.

At the bottom of the steering column, where the wire has a service loop to allow for the movement of the column back and forth - make sure it wasn't too short there and chafed the insulation off - it's human nature to get things tight, but there at the steering column coupler, and the wire length leading up to it, there should be a good bit of extra in a loop. I've also seen column couplers that have an electrical tab on both sides (steering wheel and steering box) to allow you to connect the horn wire conveniently. Sometimes those get corroded and screw up, too - if you have one, check it out separately.

If you don't replace the entire length of the horn wire from up inside the dash, then go back along the wire you pulled out of the column til you get to a point where you can fasten it securely to the body, then splice in the new one there (I would solder it if there's room), anchor it down and re-connect everything. If that's the real problem, you should have solved it.

gn

Well, I finally got aruond to replacing the wire from the button to the bottom of the steering column and the horn still honks when turning the wheel. Any ideas?

Thanks
Troy

Yup, one of the two tabs on the back side of the horn button may be hitting the steering shaft nut.

Alan,
Thanks but you offered the same suggestion earlier on 8/9 but the sucker still honks even with the horn button disconnected. I left it alone for a couple of months since I thought I would not have a big need for a horn. That was until Saturday when a Ford Excursion almost backed over the top of me. Loud yelling stopped the person but it they had their radion on I would have been just a grease spot on the underside of his SUV.

Trace the ground side wire from the - side of the horn terminal up thru the column, the wire is grounding somehwere, since it has to be pulled out of the column for a visual check attach a new wire to the old and pull it through as you pull the old one out.

Alan: Up above he mentions that he just replaced the wire running up through the column.......

The only other wire that moves when the steering wheel/column is moved is the one looped around the bottom of the column, where the steering rod coupling is (this wire connects directly to that one coming down the steering column). Look closely at it, especially where it is looped around to see if it touches anything has rubbed the insulation off and shorts out.

gn

Gents,
Only one wire. Down the steering column with a round lug that is bolted to steering connector housing. Been underneath and see nothing rubbing. I'll take some pics of the top side tonite but there is no steering shaft nut as Alan mentions.

Troy,
Here are a couple of sites that may help:

www.wolfsburgwest.com/wired/wired_12_00/wired_12_00.htm

and here:

www.thebugshop.org/bsfqhorn.htm

Both of these sites at least helped me understand my issues in getting my horn working well. You really have to think almost backwards with VW horns. Hope they help.

Jeff

I would hope that there is a steering shaft nut at the horn button end of the column unless "faith" is holding the steering wheel onto the column...I know you already mentioned this but maybe the horn button tabs are hitting ? Sometimes this simple one wire stuff can drive one nuts because the obvious is almost always overlooked .

Alan,
I know it sounds kind of strange but on top I have five bolts through the horn button ring, through the steering wheel into a large round collar, anyway I'll post some pics of it tonight when I get home and it may ring some bells for you or others that may be familiar with my configuration.
Troy

Troy,
Alan is referring to the big nut that goes over the steering shaft that comes up from the steering box. The horn ground wire runs through the middle of it. It is a nut that is probably 1.25 inch across. The five bolts (recessed hex head bolts) are on the steering wheel to the steering wheel adapter hub. It is inside this hubm right below the horn button, that you will find the big nut. That big nut holds the wheel adapter hub to the splined shaft. It is there, or you could lift the wheel off the steering shaft with a pull.

Troy,

Do you have a column with a steering lock or an older column?
I run a "modern" column as per the photo

My random horn activation problems where caused by my metalic steering wheel boss.

The horn "wiper" behind the steering wheel was grounding directly to the boss (which is earthed by the column) when I leant on the wheel (to say look behind me).

The wiper should only make contact with the horn ring on the back of the boss. Insulating the back of the boss (with electrical tape) from the wiper solved the problem

(the wiper is connected to the earth side of horn; the other side of the horn is connected to +12V. When the wiper is earthed, the horn sounds. Wiper should be earthed by the horn button being pressed which completes a circuit to earth through the column. In my case, leaning on the wheel also completed that circuit to earth, bypassing the horn button itself)

May not be your problem, but I though i'd chime in.

Simon

Well after looking at the sites listed by Jeff I am a lot closer to identifying my configuration. My car is on a 1961 pan and it seems 61 & 62 are unique. From what the both seem to be telling me is that I'm screwed and must replace the entire column etc. as parts for these years are scarce. Here is what Wolfsburg has to say:

1960-1961 Deluxe model Beetles
This was the first year of the dished style wheel. Almost everything about these two years is unique when it comes to the horn circuit. The principals of this circuit are basically the same as 1962-1967 (which we will mention next). Instead of using a wire to run current from the horn button down the column to a ground source, the steering shaft itself was used as the electrical conductor. This meant that the tube and the shaft would need to be insulated from each other. VW did this by using plastic spacers and shims. Don

Ok, now I understand the situation, that's a rare set up.

If you have a horn button with two tabs on the back side, or can replace it with one that has the two tabs, you can easily remedy the problem and leave the exsisting column in place saving some bucks and time.

Disconnect the wire(s) that are currently conected to the column.
Run two new wires up through the center of the hollow column shaft to the horn button

One wire goes to each of the two horn button wire spades.

At the base of the column, loosly wrap the wire around the shaft two times so it will not bind or break when turning the steering wheel lock to lock. (I know this sounds a bit half as*ed but it works without a problem)
Attach one wire at the bottom portion of the column to the horn terminal tab that is not 12v powered, then run the remaining wire to a ground source. When you push the horn button you are completing the circuit to ground . Once this has worked out, it's best to add in a horn relay.

Troy,
That is the set up I have and I found a way to make it work. I will try to explain it the best I can but please feel free to ask more questions if you are interested in my solution. The key to the whole process is to insulate the outer and inner columns from any chassis ground. I used a outter column from a newer model steering column that has a flat mounting plate with two elongated holes and the shaft from my older column. Between the standard CMC mounting bracket and the flat plate of the column I insulated it with a flat piece of rubber. I also used nylon washers and some plastic tubing on the mounting bolts. Again, this is to purely insulate the outter column from any chassis ground. If you have a round style mount you can just wrap the shaft in a piece of rubber. I ran a wire from the steering box side of the rubber connector into the inner steering shaft and up to the horn. This is where you will pull your ground from. That wire is attached to your horn button. Now my horn button was a single tab, but if your is a double, then just connect the second tab to any bolt (on the steering wheel?) inside the steering wheel adapter area. Now take a wire from the tab that is mounted on the end of the outter column (mine did not have one but I soldered a tab onto it) and run it to a relay. The relay will be triggered by the neg (-) side. On a standard relay ground the 30 tab, put constant 12 volt + to the 85 tab, and run the wire coming from the outter column to the 86 tab, and then from the 87 tab run a wire to your horn. This will supply the negative, so from your constant hot side of your fuse panel run a 12v+ to your horn.
So here is how mine works: The horn always has 12v+ from the fuse panel. The wire from the steering box provides -neg energy through the center of the steering shaft to the horn button. When the horn button is depressed the -neg power either travels to the entire column via the metal arm that stick out of the horn button or via the jumper wire connected to somewhere in your adapter (this depends on the style of horn button you have ie: one or two tabs). Continuing....the -neg energy travel down the column to the tab on the bottom of the outter column and to the wire attached to the relay. This wire provides the -neg to the coil in the relay, energizing it and connecting the -neg power from the 30 tab on the relay to the 87 tab. From the 87 tab it travel down to the horn and you got BEEP!
Wow! that was long, and I aplogize if I over simplified it. Not trying to insult anyone's intelligence. It was just something I struggled with for a while and figured out one day on my long drive to the office.
Hope it helps! If not I bet at least I made you sleepy.
Jeff

Jeff,
Thanks but that is a huge amout of work. If you were going to replace the outer tube, why not replace the entire assembly get out of the problems involved with the 61 & 62 steering columns? Alan's solution seems much easier.

Alan,
I have posted a few pics of my wheel config. Unfortunately only one lug on the back of the button the other contact is a brass contactor (see horn 8 pic) I guess I will have to bend it away from contacting the coulumn housing and solder a connector to it. As you can see I found the large nut (way down inside the housing). I also have the Banjo wheel shown but no horn button for it otherwise I would be using it. My biggest concern is breaking the brass connector that I need to bend and solder a connector to. Just have to be careful. I'll give it a try this weekend.
Troy

Troy,
I think your solution may be just to insulate your outter column, but its your choice. I did it the way I did because the CMC mount was made for the later style VW column mount and I had a few of them around the house. It only took 5 minutes to put the bearing in and add the tab.
If you have the horn button with only one tab then it will be pulling the ground from the column so you should only need one wire. If you choose Alan's fix I believe you only have to run the single wire right to the horn, after wrapping it around the column as he suggested.
Good luck with your fix!

Well I am tired of messing around with this problem. I just cant find where it is shorting out. I think the only solution will be to find a button with two tabs on it. Anybody out there know where I can get a horn button with two tabs. I know they exist as I see one as part of this horn button upgrade on e-bay (item 4537998780) but I only need the button and $150.00 is a little much.
Troy

Jeff,

Thanks for posting those two links! They went immediately into my "favorites" ! ! !

TC