Pining for a Suby Speedster but intrigued by a Pontiac??

Ok, at the risk of flaming tomatoes and calls for my banishment, I wanted to throw out some recent thoughts.

First off let me say I'm a long time import fan and with the exception of my current company vehicle (a Ford Explorer) I've not owned an American car. I have owned Triumphs, VWs (VR6s), BMWs and a truly splendid Jaguar XJR. My wife has had VWs and Toyotas. In fact you could say we're biased against American vehicles... but a lot is changing on the scene.

I've been following the speedster scene for a few years now, but haven't made the leap. I've been reading books on the 356s and also been closely watching the Suby tub. I think its a brilliant piece of engineering and styling. Hats off to the guys at Specialty for conceiving and producing it...

In fact... I've been quietly squirreling away pennies towards one, or at least in to a sports car fund. Today, as I was cruising www.autoblog.com I saw a mention of the Pontaic solstice. I'd seen it off and on in the mags, but what caught my eye was the announced sticker of $19,995 for a 4 cycl, 5spd with disc brakes etc etc.

I dug a little deeper and had a good look at the car. I have to say, its pretty sweet, and most surprising from GM. I wanted to toss out some links to you guys to see what the group thinks of this super affordable modern 2 seater. You can't beat the 356 styling, no doubt, but at $10K less for one of these with warranty (relative to a Suby tub), it is intriguing. No?

www.pontiac.com/fuelingzone/index.jsp?deepLink=solstice&brand=home

fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2005/02/the_promise_of.html#more

-Jeff

I think it's a matter of dated styling. It's a beautiful car. But I can't help think that it is only beautiful because I haven't seen 10 in a row on the freeway. It's similar to the feelings I first had with the PT Cruiser or new Mini or new Beetle or so many others. You think "Wow that's really cool looking". But, 1-2 years later when they are mass produced and readily available, they tend to just slip into the background noise of all the other cars.

Remember the first Fiero. I remember watching the commercial on our new 3 ton VCR over and over. Then a year later I didn't even stop to look at one in a parking lot.

The speedster however, will continue to get that great unique reaction.

If you are looking for a really fun driving car, that probably performs pretty well, go with the Soltice. If you are looking for unique styling and a ride that garners envy from nearly every passing motorist, then go with the Speedster.

You also don't have to spend 30k on a speedster. Buy a used one for 12k, drive it for a year, sell it for 12k and buy something else. Of course, you could also buy a Soltice for about 22k, drive it for a year and sell it for maybe 18k.

2 cents worth
-=theron

When I was shopping with my daughter for her new car, I was rather taken with the looks, features and price of the Pontiac Vibe. I thought to myself that this would have been the kind of car I would have liked when I was her age (mid-twenties).

Then I had a reality check. Apparently, these cars do an extremely poor job of holding there value. I presume there is a good reason for this. Perhaps the Solstice will do better, time will tell.

I'm with Theron, there's nothing like having a really cool looking classic style car. I don't know what value you place on smiles per mile, but I have noticed I sure get a lot of them from others when I drive by. The car is an instant hit everywhere I take it. For me, it's the most fun I can have on four wheels.
My 2 kroner
John H

Jeff,

Yeah, I think a lot of us are waiting to see the Solstice. I think GM dealers may hold us hostage with additional markups like they seem to do on most "hot new cars". They did it on the PT Cruiser, new T-Bird, new Mustang, etc, etc. They don't seem to realize that if they do that it just turns off potential customers for anything in the showroom, not just the Solstice. Not all dealers play those games so if you need one bad, do some searching. It helps if you are in a large Metro area but where I am it is hard to play one dealer against the other. I will admit that my Ford dealer here in Medford, OR didn't mark up the new T-Bird but charged full sticker. I think they are cutting prices on the 05's.

Car looks good on paper but I haven't read a full road test on one yet. I think about 25-30 more HP would really help on the car. Be very interested ot see the sticker price on one.

As far as being a strict import buyer, well I think you should try a domestic for a couple of reasons. First is that they are pretty good reliable cars now and quality is about equal to the imports, second is that giving your money to an import manufacture smacks of being somewhat un-patriatotic. I know that will cause some screams but people like my next door neighbors will only buy a Jap car because they precieve they are getting better quality. Sad thing is that they have indoctrinated their two sons in the same false doctrine. I had a lot of imports myself, buying 6-7 Volvo's and a Benz new, (Benz was a real turkey, mechanical piece of S***.) The later Volvo's were not as good as the early 140-240 cars, thiose were great, later ones like the 740 was little better than a Ford Fairlane, and that was a loser.

I'll get off my soapbox and I am excited about the Solstice also.

Bruce

Jeff,

You're comparing apples to oranges. The Speedster experience is so much more "basic" than any contemporary car, it's really different genres of transportation.

The Speedster (by any of the major manufacturers) is a throw-back to an era when "creature comforts" were not even considered as autos were designed. The Speedster was meant to provide top-down fun and driving excitement (with apologies to Pontiac). Every replica I've ever driven has filled that bill well. However, throw a little bad weather at a Speedster, or ask it to deliver you to work every single day, and you'll quickly find its shortcomings.

Regarding the Pontiac Solstice and its clone the Saturn Sky - these are cars that are presumably going to be a lot of fun to drive, but they will also have all the "goodies" modern-day cars have - like air conditioning, airbags, anti-lock brakes, long service intervals, etc. They will probably hold up very well to daily commuting and lousy weather.

One more thing - someone once told me, "Never buy the first model year of any car...especially an American-made car." That's still very good advice. Doesn't mean the first model year isn't worth owning, but you can bet that the second or third model year will have many more things the guys who bought the first year will wish they had.

Okay, two more things - if the Solstice or Sky only lost $4000 in resale during the first year, that would be nice. If history is any judge, they will lose more than that, making their value as "an extra fun car" even more questionable.

Take Theron's advice. Buy a used Replica Speedster. Drive it when the sun shines. See if you really like it - and, if you do, select a builder and have them make you just exactly what you want. Then sell the used Speedster to the next guy trying to make the same decision you're trying to make.

Jeff, I did exactly what many will tell you. Buy a used one and then you will know for you what is important and what is not. But don't buy a used one that you know isn't at all what you want. If you know you want a modern engine then don't waste anytime with one that has a VW engine. If you have to buy new then buy new. You are going to have a loss of value on any new car, but I'm sure it will be less on a speedster.

Oh I love the solstice, but so does everyone I talk to = there will be a ton of them out there. I think a used miata will have the same appeal in 2 years.

Jeff, as Steven did and John suggested, going the used route first is a good plan. That's what I did with my 1 year old VS. The experience definately put a finer point on what I wanted out of one of these cars.

Did Bruce really equate buying an import with being unpatriotic? :)

In this day and age where Hondas are built in Ohio and BMWs in South Carolina... I dunno. I don't see it. But then you could always back it up a level and talk about the basic premise in the first place. Of course, not being an American gives me a slightly different world view too. :) None the less, Bruce is correct, the quality of the US based automakers has increased significantly in the last ten years. Thus the excitement about the Solstice.

What is the sticker on a Miata these days?

-Jeff

One other thought, and more important to us general gear heads...

I'm loving the NEW Horsepower Wars. The numbers are mind boggling.

I'm loving the new roadster focus.

I'm loving auto design being important and avante garde again. (Hey Bruce, is it unpatriotic if I sneak in a French expression? Hehehe, sorry couldn't resist).

The car world is definitely heating up on all fronts and we're all going to win. Thats progress.

-Jeff

Jeff,

I owned a Miata for 2 years. It was reliable, fun to drive and very low maintenence. In the summer it had A/C and in the winter a heater that actually produced heat I sold it last spring.
I bought a used IM which was built in 1991 and had 12,000 miles. Took me more than 3 months to get the car registered here in N.J. and had little time to really drive it.Now that warm weather is coming I can't wait.
What they have said here is true. Try a used one. If you like it then go for it. I know I won't go back to a MIata.
Right now I am looking toward the future and my dilemma is a new IM or the suby.
Good Luck!

Solstice at $20k even A/C is an option!
Saturn Sky at $25k inclusive of A/C and an upgraded interior.
Both are fairly heavy cars and are expected to have the performance equal to the Miata....Still I like the look.

Don't get me wrong I love my foreign cars and especially the engines. But, buying a Honda built in the US really isn't the same thing as buying a US manufactured car. I don't really push either one anymore, but 10 years ago there would be no doubt. I generally buy a car and keep it until it just isn't worth fixing anymore. The IM was only sold because I was ready to build exactly what I wanted. And I know I'll keep it at least 10 years and likely I'll rebuild it after 10 years so it looks new again. I was a little worried about getting a replica and it not being nice enough for me to drive, but I loved driving the IM. Now with the SAW I'll have the colors and options that are important to me and a little easier to find maintenance and that makes the car perfect for me.

Oh and I will have a hardtop once the car is a couple of years old and I don't mind driving it with dirty wet streets in the winter. But I'm out of money and I don't want to drive it in those conditions in the first few years anyway.

Re: Speedsters. I second all the motions to buy a good used Speedster in the 12-18G range. I like the Subys... but I also love the classic sound of an aircooled engine. It's a passion. If adjusting valves, tweeking carbs, and loving a 50 year old styled bathtub on wheels isn't your thing, then I would buy something like the Pontiac... (I had one of those V-6 Fiero GTs, and loved it.)

Another opinion.

Steven, do you mean that you have a hardtop that will fit the your new Cabriolet? Where did you find that?

Actually I am going to have one made by Steve, but I'm going to wait a couple of years before I have it done. I'm more likely to use it after the car has been driven a couple of years and I'm not so picky with it anymore. I would just order it now, but I am trying to stay within a self prescribed budget.

I read through this thread with interest... Good point about buying a used speedster, then assessing whether it is for you.

In the sixties 'built-in obsolesence' was brought to our attention by a guy named Vance Packard. Seems a lot of manufacturers relied on increased sales over time based on their stuff wearing out. American cars of old certainly fell into this category and some cars today still vex their owners, hence the newer 'lemon laws'

My point is along the line that as new cars are introduced we are still getting sand-bagged.

Some cars do need some road time to get the bugs out. The first all-wheel drive Porsches in 1989 were and are 'difficult' and high maintenance, but through time and development the 95 and on C4 model is a dream.

Porsche and Audi shared info and put together a great combo of all-wheel drive and automatic transmissions, but it took years and years.

Honda brought an S2000 and it is just now, after what five years of production, addressing the fact it has no low end torque!

The PT Cruiser was a novel introduction and you can't tell me Chrysler didn't have a turbo engine available when they rolled out the first gutless versions...but they had to build a market. Rather than the car wearing out, the first generation of PTCruiser owners would become buyers of the turbo model so they could get out of their own way (barely)...

So the beat goes on. We may buy a car that will last longer, but it may only be half the car it could truly be. What's that buyer beware Latin phrase?

Paul,

Good post and I'll just add that GM was probably the best example of an auto maker bringing out a new car that wasn't done yet, re the Vega, Corvair, Fiero, Reatta, Allante etc, etc. Unfortunatly for the consumers a lot of these were sporty type cars that did not deliver the goods until about the time GM decided to pull the plug. That is their history, hope it doesn't have an echo with the Solstice.

At least when Ford bought out the Mustang, they had a V-8 as an option and then quickly starting putting the performance stuff in it.As a result the Mustang has become an icon of what an affordable
sporty car should be. GM never seemed to read Fords page on that issue, with the exception of the Corvette. Porsche certainly has a history of adding content to a car during its production run, certainly to their credit. They smartly stayed with the basic 911 shape which never seems to get old. Even the 356 shape could certainly be called an evergreen shape. When I see a 356 I rarely say at first glance, "Oh, thats a 61", but instead just recognise the unmistakable shape and then try and determine what year and flavor I am looking at.

Cars are a fun and expensive habit aren't they? Fun reading the history of the winners and the losers.

Bruce

Wow, that's not your Daddy's Pontiac! Can't wait to see one in person.

Paul, the phrase is "CAVEAT EMPTOR".....

Being new to the site, I drove several of the new sports cars this past year, Boxer, Z-4, Toyota

Pat, congrats. Tell us about your Beckster!

Pontiac? I actually liked the Fiero. I passed an aging 84 Gt to my (then 16 yo) son and we had a blast with it in aftermarket stuff. That 6 ran pretty strong after a little work. I've always liked Pontiacs.

Well you could knock me over with a feather. I think the Saturn is better looking. I never thought the words "Wow, check out that hot little Saturn roadster." would ever, ever comeo ut of my mouth...

I agree, you can't beat the marriage of classic 50's 356 styling with more modern mechnicals (from improve VW all the way up to the Subaru drivetrain). However, I can't ignore this either. :)

www.saturn.com/saturn/showroom/future_vehicles/sky.jsp?nav=710

Alas, my heart is still with the bathubs Suby. :)

When are new photos going on the darn site of Specialty Auto??

-Jeff

Hopefully pictures of Steven's build will start appearing soon. The site seems to be updated in bursts, but he has to have some good subject matter first.

Hopefully starting next week...we will start to see a build up?? Right now things are just getting started.

Jim, it's a fairly stock Beck. I ordered the burgundy color with dark tan interior. It has a 1915cc engine, Nardi wheel, tonneau cover, mirrors, passenger handle, oh ya most important feature a heater for that warm Alaskan summer. Shortly before I ordered it I ran a search on the site for "Beck" and had then found a post by Carey Hines about having a Beck with roll up windows by late 2004. I sent him an email directly, I had ordered mine through Luke in CO, he told me he had just dropped off a test car to be fitted with roll-up windows to CO and that I should her something in the next few weeks on how it went with the windows. So depending on how they turn out on the test vehicle, mine should be arriving in April to CO and hopefully will get the add-on, barring no real problems or a huge cost, they weren't sure what the add-on would cost, so we'll see. It would be a great option for up here, making it a much better daily driver for the summer months. I'll keep the fingers crossed. I have been thinking about coming down to Knott

When the PCA group meets for a run,people in other cars stop to ask if they can get involved. Yah sure. Get a Porsche. WHen you buy a run of the mill car what you get is transportation, maybe brisk with these sports cars. I have had all the sporty cars mentioned here but only the Miata and Porsches had a passionate following-- and the Maiata was just too darn slo and there were too many secretaries and elementary school teachers in teh club. If you want more technolgy and an open roof buy a Carrera or SC convertible.
ANd on this buy AMerican thing. I was all for it in the sixties. But that was the last time American iron ruled. I junked my 81 Olds with 55k miles, after buying it new and vowed never to buy another GM car. My $40k Ford product was incredibly fast and mechanically sound, but at 50k miles the rattles developed rattles. But I still have a Jeep but my expectations are lo and it only cost me $5k when it had 60k miles on it.
It is a world market and economy. Cars are too expensive new to be flying a flag over them. Other stuff, well I avoid CCC (cheap chinese crap) and play the rest by ear.
ANd I will be getting a C6 when it is a few years old. An exotic supercar for maybe the price of a new replica. A no brainer for me---but I will not be selling Silver Streak. IM.
Hey Bruce, you are in the correct part of a Blue state.

Pat,

You are more than welcome, you wouldn't want to miss this after coming down from Alaska! No admission charge, (I don't think,) only if you want admission to the amusment park and we are much more fun in any case. You can find applications for the Chicken dinner under
the link on the home page. You might even check to see if there are some rooms left at the Marriott. Last I heard a few days ago, there were.

Bruce

Ralph,

Please explain what you mean by living in the right spot in a blue state, LOL. Medford is right wing, Ashland is left wing, and Eagle Point is Red Neck so guess we have all the colors covered!

Bruce

I'm with Bruce 100% that's why my daily drivers are from Detroit. Another advantage to domestics is that replacement parts are so much more affordable and easy to get. My dad had the opportunity to own some imports; in the end I convinced him to buy domestic and he hasn't looked back. In almost 50 years of driving he tells me his best car yet is his 1990 Lincoln Town Car Cartier Edition. He still keeps it as a 2nd car and bought a new 2003 when the model came out a couple of years ago.

I guess Bruce will never buy an Intermeccanica, since it's made in Canada...making it a foreign made car.
Ron

Not true Ron, the engine is made in Farmersville, CA, right, plus I like Canada and Canadians so that wouldn't hold me from buying an IM but money might. Just kidding, I think. I'm happy with my JPS for now, maybe if I hit the lottery I might go to John Steele and have him make a clone of Leaders car for me, number 36 will be the number!

Yeah, my Ford F150 was made in Canada, too, but my Wife's Honda was made in America (with a lot of imported parts).
I remember our 1985 Plymouth Voyager van had a Mitsubishi Engine and a Mazda transmission, and my Chrysler LeBaron was mostly assembled in Mexico.

I guess most cars are becoming "World Cars" now-adays. Still, the best engine (and rustiest body) I've ever had was in a '71 Toyota - and they just kept making them better.

Been there done that with the best engine/rustiest body combo with my 1971 Ford Galaxie 500. What was it about that year??? The engine was a sweet running 351 Windsor but by three years old the left side door look like it had been strafed.

Wow, all this talk about the quality of Detroit cars in the past raised a few memories! From '63 through '67 I was a Design engineer for Fisher body Division of GM. As such I visited virtually every Buick, Olds, Pontiac, Cadillac and Corvair assembly plant in the greater Detroit area, including Lansing and Cleveland. Yeah, quality was bad by todays standards. Some of the things I saw in assembly plants were sick(union labor sabotage was a large part of it). But they sold everything they manufactured. GM went from 63% market share back then to 38% today. On the other hand, my Corvair lasted 250,000 miles plus and was running when sold. My Ford lasted 130,000 plus.

There is a replica / street rod / hot rod / custom / sleeper / restoration vehicle for everyone. That's why I love car shows, real ones for drivers - Knott's - as well as the Good Guys. Recognition, grins, meeting total strangers, satisfaction of doing it yourself, or just lying to others about what you didn't do. Speedsters is our catagory. There are lot's of other catagories. I bet most of us oare are closet cross-overs to several catagories.

This is till the best speedster website going - keep it coming!

David; JJ and I went to a local classic car show this weekend. JJ took some pictures of some interesting cars for you guys to check out including Shelby Cobras, some Mopars, a 1946 split and a couple of nice Corvairs just for you....keep your eyes peeled for them.....

Well this is an interesting thread....

I've always liked Mercedes. When it was time for a new daily drive the family wanted an M class. I looked a bit and found it was made in the good ole US of A and said no way! I checked the forums, looked at some M-classes a few years out and it all confirmed what I found...they're not the same as the vehicles made in the Motherland.

Having said that its not just the M-Class built in the States but many cars these days built around the world are made for the "majority of drivers"...its profits. They're made in boardrooms and not from the heart.

That's where our cars come in. They fill that void.

Brian

Brian Posted:

"many cars these days built around the world are made for the "majority of drivers"...its profits. They're made in boardrooms and not from the heart.

That's where our cars come in. They fill that void."

Brian, I couldn't agree more.

Jim