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pleased, but a bit disappointed as well....

Scott SScott S Supporting Member
Hi All -
Happy "almost" fall (LOVE this time of year...).
So, I decided to take the speedster into our local hot shot VW shop and have them go through the entire thing, as I was having difficulty get a tune to "stick". I would set it up, it would drive great, then go to crap two days later. The car only has 750 miles on it since it was built in 2008 by VS, so I was getting a bit frustrated/concerned.
As per my previous posts, being that the car has a 1915 in it, I really expected it to be far more powerful.
Well, I got the call from the shop today - the work is all done. Here is the good news - the owner of the shop said it was by far the best built kit he had ever seen. He has driven many, and his experience is that they are like driving a bucket full of loose nuts and bolts. Ha! He said he would drive the car daily in heartbeat. He really liked it. He said mechanically they found that the distributor shaft had a significant amount of play - like it may have been dropped on the gear causing big internal damage. They replaced the dizzy, set the valves (one was too tight and the others were a bit loose). Both the leak down and the compression check on the motor came out great and he said it looked to be a very high quality build. However..... (there is always a "but" - ha!)

The car is running a stock valve train and looks to have a very mild (close to stock) cam . He was also not sure who actually made the carbs (Kadron knock-off's) but they were easy to set up and dial in. The performance of the car is much smoother than it was prior, but performance/power wise it is pretty much the same. He said the only way he could tell that the motor was not stock is that it pulled far better at low rpms than a stock bug ever would - way more torque down low. He said that based on what he could see/test, with proper maintenace the motor should "last forever". He said that it probably makes peak power right around 5k.
Great - from the expense/repair side of things. I just dont get why my 1275cc 1960 Morris Minor pickup will so easily pull away from the thing. The stock 2L 914 felt like a ferrari compared to this car. I asked if switching the Kads to dual webbers would make a big difference. He said that based on the heads being so close to stock, that all I would gain would be more trips to the gas station and a rich running motor.
I would really rather not rebuild a 800 mile quality motor - but I sure would like more go - especially on the top end.

Any thoughts?

Thanks a million -
Scott S
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Scott SScott S Supporting Member
Hi All -
Happy "almost" fall (LOVE this time of year...).
So, I decided to take the speedster into our local hot shot VW shop and have them go through the entire thing, as I was having difficulty get a tune to "stick". I would set it up, it would drive great, then go to crap two days later. The car only has 750 miles on it since it was built in 2008 by VS, so I was getting a bit frustrated/concerned.
As per my previous posts, being that the car has a 1915 in it, I really expected it to be far more powerful.
Well, I got the call from the shop today - the work is all done. Here is the good news - the owner of the shop said it was by far the best built kit he had ever seen. He has driven many, and his experience is that they are like driving a bucket full of loose nuts and bolts. Ha! He said he would drive the car daily in heartbeat. He really liked it. He said mechanically they found that the distributor shaft had a significant amount of play - like it may have been dropped on the gear causing big internal damage. They replaced the dizzy, set the valves (one was too tight and the others were a bit loose). Both the leak down and the compression check on the motor came out great and he said it looked to be a very high quality build. However..... (there is always a "but" - ha!)

The car is running a stock valve train and looks to have a very mild (close to stock) cam . He was also not sure who actually made the carbs (Kadron knock-off's) but they were easy to set up and dial in. The performance of the car is much smoother than it was prior, but performance/power wise it is pretty much the same. He said the only way he could tell that the motor was not stock is that it pulled far better at low rpms than a stock bug ever would - way more torque down low. He said that based on what he could see/test, with proper maintenace the motor should "last forever". He said that it probably makes peak power right around 5k.
Great - from the expense/repair side of things. I just dont get why my 1275cc 1960 Morris Minor pickup will so easily pull away from the thing. The stock 2L 914 felt like a ferrari compared to this car. I asked if switching the Kads to dual webbers would make a big difference. He said that based on the heads being so close to stock, that all I would gain would be more trips to the gas station and a rich running motor.
I would really rather not rebuild a 800 mile quality motor - but I sure would like more go - especially on the top end.

Any thoughts?

Thanks a million -
Scott S
Scott SScott S Supporting Member
Hi Scott -
I dont know what the tranny is - if it is a stock stack or not. My driving habits are pretty tame (especially the older I get!). The engine just seems to fall flat - it is pretty slow off of the line, and about the time that you would think the cam in a hipo motor would come on line and give you a kick, it just doesn't. It is simply time to shift. It feels like this in both 1st and second gear. However, I had the thing on the highway, and it was far more comfortable, it drove great, and had no problems keeping with traffic. Dare I say, it was actually very very comfortable to drive on the highway. But in stop and go, I actually feel like I am holding up traffic a bit when the light turns green - unless I rev it up and shift like crazy into second/third - it is kind of a frantic process.

Does that make sense? Sort of hard to put into words....
SpeedBucketSpeedBucket
Some builders use a stock cam or Engle 110 on a larger cc motor in an effort to use the cubes for increased torque only. A "greater cc" engine with stock cam wont require higher RPMS so the valve train can be stock or close to it but the end consumer should be informed about the cam of course, so they can decide if they want a different power curve than a stock-ish cam will provide.Trannys can last longer with that setup and since the engine isn't working as hard as a "cammed" motor the heat and wear and tear will be milder...typically.

As prev. mentioned unles you split the case or run a supercharger, ratio rockers are about all you can do to really increase the hp. A cam is really needed to make Dual Webers or the like to "really " come alive.
FM Former Member
Scott, you don't have a "hipo motor". It is just a larger displacement stock motor with mild enhancements like the dual single barrel carbs. The good news is it's more powerful than the smaller displacement stock engine from Vintage. So in that regard be glad you have the engine you do and appreciate the extra cost as money well spent.

There are some bolt-on things you can do to hop-up the engine you have, like exhaust, or higher lift rockers (as mentioned), but the performance increase yield isn't worth it in my opinion. Unless you are red-lining every shift down the drag strip you probably wouldn't notice the difference. Even then you wouldn't notice it in seat-of-the-pants, just that your ET might drop a little.

If you want a "hipo motor" then just start at the top and work your way down to fit your wallet.

For a true "hipo motor" then budget about $6000 to get about 190 - 200 hp in a solidly streetable 2332. Of course you will need a new transaxle too (you'll tear the gears out of the one you have). So budget another $1300.

Incidentally, you already have an engine more powerful than the original Speedster.
M mickey356
Whats that ol sayin "HP cosrs moeny. How fast you want to go depends on how much you want to spend. How much ya got?"

When I redid the top of my 3 liter in the 911 I went stock all the way (except exhaust) as the 190ish HP it has is plenty for the way I drive the car on the street. As for the speedster - I went with CB Performance and got a nice 140+ HP engine and new trans to match. I dropped close to $8K in it, again it was plenty for street use. In either situation I could have spent waaayyyy more and gotten more ponies, but like I said, they are both cars I use on the streer and really how much do you need? Save your money and enjoy the engine you have, there is no way you'll get the reurn on investment lighting the wheels up around turns and off the line.
SpeedBucketSpeedBucket
Mark and Lane are right on... If you asked me a few years ago if I would be satisfied with a 1600 d.p. in my Speedy I would have laughed and built a 2332 monster or Huge T4 before I had seats in the thing....but I enjoy the little stocker with Kadrons and Trimil pea-shooter! I'm not going thru tranny's every month and its fun to just putt along. Dont get me wrong I'm building a 1904 (74 x 90.5) cause I have the stuff laying around and I like building engines, but I enjoy the stock feel too. No tickets!
I think Will Pierson(billyfeet) has a relatively stock engine too and likes it. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

RG Robert G
Listening to you guys is sobering. Currently have 2110 with weber 40s. bot used. have been told that I'm probably getting maybe 110 horses. Reading here of 125, 140, 180 causes me to think I want more.Car currently runs great, starts quickly. etc. Have about 17500 miles. Lately I see more threads advising to just enjoy the car the way it is. Less heat, less wear and tear. 3100 revs is 70mph. Love the car. Just added CSP shifter. Any input yea nor nay? Thanks for comments.

Bob
FM Former Member
Scott,

Hate to say it, but to really make full use of the increased displacement, you have to open the case and buy the right bits and pieces. Pretty much everything is going to need replacing; sorry.

Adding some low ratio rockers is only going to increase the lift ever so slightly, you still have the stock duration and the stock valves, springs, and retainers. Sort of a waste of money that could be put towards a decent camshaft.

Changing the carbs will only make more problems for you, any other little add-on won't help a bit.

Often times you'll read that one or the other single item will give you a 10% horsepower boost, but that only occurs withing a specific RPM range and usually only when accompanied by other more serious modifications. Plus, the gains can cancel each other out in the end rather than be accumulative. If a header offers a 3 horse power gain at 5,000 and a decrease in horsepower under 3,000 but the rockers only have an effect between 1,000 and 2,000 rpm, you're losing at both ends. Adding an ignition that works best at high revs and running a stock fan that explodes at anything over a sustained 4,500 is silly. This sort of un-planned catch-up isn't going to help you at all. I'm not being really clear, but I hope that you can sort of get the idea. Building an engine three and five horsepower at a time with bolt-ons and hoping that they all work in concert is just completely wrong.

You honestly need someone to design you an engine based around the current displacement. Matched components, balanced masses, lightened and maximized, blueprinted and correct. Don't waste your time and money on anything less.

Luck,

TC
El FrazooEl Frazoo Supporting Member
Time for the old "torque is addictive" speech, I think. I knew from the get go that I wanted performance. I've driven 1300 cc VWs,and had two 356 coupes, a 1600 normal and a S90, and while that S90 mill went pretty good, the high cc VW engines we can get now are better. So I opted for the 2332 right off the bat for the Speedster, w/ tranny to match. plenty of zip. I think you have two options on the engine thing: start over, as indicated -- TC said it best -- w/ a new engine/trans, and get a screamer, or run the one you have and just know that it works well. MUSBJIM has a bone stock engine in his car and praises its smooth go anywhere, anytime, no muss no fusss high reliability characteristics. He cruises the PCH and other cool spots all the time, and loves it. That said, he has had the chance to run around a few miles in my car, and he was telling me at Carlisle this year that he thought a bigger motor would be REALLY fun. Yes indeed. Also Will Pierson has a normal engine in his IM and it works well enough, but is not thrilling. I drove it for a week end, and it was -- nice. I like mine better. I understand he bought a new engine w/ more umph, and was going to put it in -- not sure where that plan is right now, but if he has done it, contact him to find out how it went.
C Catmandu
Scott,,
Now that you know you have a good solid motor,, and the carb's are all sorted out, why not go the rest of the bolt-on route ? Add the 1.4 ratio rockers, and a good performance exhaust header/muffler (lots of those to choose from). Then be prepared to return to your carb guy, a time or two, for re-jetting and tweaking. That should cost you about $500 or so. Now the limiting factor will be your heads,, and I doubt that you should throw a lot more time and money into those. Instead,, save the $$$ for a future hi-po engine and tranny combo,,, if at that time you still feel that you need it.

I am kind of in the same boat as you,, with my 1600dp and stock tranny. Somewhere down the track is a 2332 system with my name on it. But for the meantime,, this is a great little motor,, reliable with excellent mileage. I leave stop lights fast enough to impress most other drivers, and I really have to watch my speed on the open roads. Also it is fun to get the most out it that I can,, both mechanically and from a driving standpoint. Once I do make the big upgrade, selling and/or swapping my trusty old combo will help offset the upgrades cost. So I won't really be losing all the money spent on this motor.
Lots of thoughts,, but be sure to get the maximum enjoyment out of what ever you choose,,,
cheers,
Alan
Scott SScott S Supporting Member
Dont be silly Bob - it's all good. The more discussion the better as far as I am concerned.

As of now, the car is simply to new to even consider an upgrade. It runs great for what it is. It is actualy good to know that while it is not what I would consider ideal, it is running as it should and will hopefully be fairly maintenance free for a while. I built the new muffler last month and simply love how it sounds - it definitely fits the carrera look of the car. I just have never had a more show than go car before.

If something should major should break, I will deal with it at that time. Until then, I will enjoy it as is.

Thanks very much for the input - very appreciated!!!
Scott S
FM Former Member
Scott, I think your head is in the right place for now.

But of course if you change your mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKhpKv2brhg


For other interest, some years ago (1997) Hot VWs published a special issue: All About Perfomance VW Engines (Two). I believe they reprinted it a couple of times since.

EVERYBODY should try to get their hands on a copy. On top of information covering everything from overhauling a stocker though building a monster stroker, one of the sections is particularly related to the conversation trend of this thread.

This section documents starting with a 1600cc 40hp stocker and doing stuff to it over the course of 40 incremental steps until ending up at 203hp. A dyno run is published after each of the 40 steps. It is interesting to see what works, and what big (or little) difference it makes.
Ron ORon O1984/2010 IM, B.C. Canada
When I purchased my IM back in 2000 it had a stock 1600 single carb engine. Boy, that thing slow! One day I got 'out-dragged' (going from two lanes to one) by an old lady in a mid 80s four cylinder automatic Accord. She wasn't trying, but I was!
Next, I moved up to a 1776 with stock heads, 110 cam and dual 40 Webers. The car was faster, but passing on the highway was still a bit scary.
More power please.
Next, I had a 2110 installed with ported and polished heads and a wilder cam. Lots of power. Did I want more? Absolutely, but I didn't NEED any more.
Finally, I'm having a 2275 installed in my old/new IM. Same heads, cam, Pauter lifters, 82 mm crank, and new CB fuel injection. The car should be even faster than my 2110.
I'll let you know in a month or so if I think the car has enough power. :-)
FM Former Member
Scott, I'll weigh in for just a second on this.
I have what is probably the ugliest car on this site, but it's also one of the strongest runners. I have a 2.4L Type IV and a pretty well-thought-out gearbox. Lots of these guys have driven it, and it's fun.
The down side is that I can't seem to stop fiddling with it. Everything I look at is subject to some kind of tinkering, adjustment or upgrade.
My advice would be to enjoy the mild-mannered car you have, then make a list of things you might like to change and have them built into the next one.
Take notes especially on handling and braking characteristics. Upgrading horses means upgrading rubber, brakes, steering, gears and mix chambers.
Good luck!
C Catmandu
Ron,, this may be an old question, but it goes to the reliability of larger displacements. I believe your new 2275 will have the 94mm cylinders,, where as your old 2110 had the thicker walled 90.5mm barrels. Are the newer 94mm cylinders available now with thicker walls ?? That would certainly be desirable for the longest possible performance life, as you are sure to be producing higher heats with the new motor.
thanks,
Alan
M mickey356
Cory hit it on the head. Once you start down the HP road you have to consider EVERYTHING else. I had a stock 1600cc in my speedster and when I decided how far up to go on the HP ladder I considered the rest as well. What good is a bunch of power if you car isn't equipped to handle it? I could have gone higher but didn't want to take on too much work to the rest of the car.
Brakes first (if you got the go, you need the whoa), and then suspension too. Cory can elaborate more; his car is sick fast in a straight line but I would imagine the twistys get a little exciting :)
Ron ORon O1984/2010 IM, B.C. Canada
Alan, here's a cylinder wall thickness comparison:
85.5 .163"
90.5 .148"
92.0 .118"
94.0 .140"
The 94s are slightly thinner, but from what I've read they should hold up well. I did consider going with a set of thickwall 92s (slip in the same opening as a 94 and are .179" thick), but I ended up going for the larger displacement. I'm also running 9:1 compression, so I'll have to keep an eye on the oil/head temps.
Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
and while all of those things in Mickey's post are "must have's", you also should consider what gear ratio rear end you want and then what ratios you want in each gear and tailor those to the torque curve of your personal engine and what RPM the engine wil be turning at turnpike speeds.

Mine runs slow enough that I almost always run around town in 3'rd gear (and I don't like the world below 3,000 rpm), and while my gears are not "close ratio", they've been chosen to work right - for me. What you choose and how you drive will certainly be a bit different from me and others, but between Pat Downs (engine) and Sam at Rancho Transmissions, they should get you to where you want to be.

gn
Willy PWilly P
Alan, for a comprehensive discussion about high performance Type 1 engines I like www.aircooled.net. Go to the website, look at the link for Technical Library, and read away. I feel that most of the information presented is accurate. Also, as Gordon says,the gear ratio question is one that Sam at Rancho Transaxle has lot's of experience in answering. I just had them build me a ProStreet trans. They were very helpful in advising me what I needed.
Gordon NicholsGordon NicholsMassachusetts 1993 CMC Supporting Member
Quick Rancho story (and a short thread drift):

I was going to buy a Rancho transmission way back in the mid-90's when I was still running an Engineering department and I was asked by Mahketing to attend a trade show in Anaheim, CA, and be their guest speaker. What the heck? So I told them I would, but then talked to the guys supporting the show for space on the show truck for "one small, pedestal UNIX server", roughly 16" X 16" X 3 feet high. They thought I was bringing something "Special", butr never questioned it.......

So I show up on the loading dock of my company with this "thing", wrapped in stretch plastic and load it into the assigned cubby in the shipping crate and off it goes.

We get to the convention center in Anaheim and I pull my "thing" out of the crate and load it into a minivan I had rented for our group. Later that day I show up at Rancho transmissions with my old, used, "core" tranny and discuss with Sam the Tranny I was having him build with the gear ratios I had fax'd to him earlier. Picked it up two days later, loaded it back into the cubby in the show crate (getting it back into the conference center was, actually, easier than I thought it would be) and shipped it home.

Presto! A new, Pro-street Tranny, delivered for free! Thanks, to.......well, never-mind.....

gn

Oh! And on the way back from Rancho's shop, I got a little lost and drove around in East LA for a while. Wicked cool 'hood!!!! Felt like I was back in Honduras, but way better wall murals!!
Scott SScott S Supporting Member
BIG update....

Engine developed some valve noise. Called the shop and they said they could look at it while I waited. Great!
Did another valve adjustemt and found one that was a bit loose. Looked like the lock nut was not tightened as much as it should have been. While under the car, the shop owner noticed that the only timing marks on the pulley were the bright pink ones that were manually painted on by what I would assume was the original builder. He did not think it looked right. The shop owner got in there, set up TDC and sure enough, the timing marks were off - significantly.
Unfortunately he did not have the time to do what he wanted to do while I waited. So I left the car. (if you have not been on a city bus for a while, I highly reccommend it - great people watching!!)

Picked it up about an hour ago. New bottom pulley, new valve adjust and re-timed. It is a completely different car. No, it is not blazingly fast, but I would be willing to bet it has 30-50% more power than it did previously. It drives so much smoother and pulls so much harder(especially at hight RPMs) that I am truly shocked. I would drive the car anywhere - in any traffic, on any highway and be more than comfortable. I really cant beleive it. It's like it has been opened up - like it is able to breath. I am SO pleased!!!

Now, all that is left is to find a replacement Porsche crest horn button for the banjo wheel - for about half of what they sell for!!!
FM Former Member
Alan and Ron: 94s don't overheat like the 92s do. I have a 2165cc, 78 stroke by 94. 180 on the engine dyno, never overheats unless in traffic, which is a function of not isolating the cooling intake from the cooling exhaust. Underway, head temps stay at 270 or less. This morning, 45 degrees F. ambient, the heads were at 220 F for the ride in to work. 911 style fan shroud in a Spyder.

Gordon, right you are on the trans. Below 55, I like 3rd. I can tool around in fourth at 1800-2200, the engine pulls it fine, but I usually leave it in third for up to 50mph. All stock gears, 3.44 final.

Glad the timing marks were found/fixed whatever. Improper tuning sucks!
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