#1 on Pelican parts, I get all my oil, filters, whatnots for my P,,dont know if they have those little brass thingies
As Gordon pointed out - rear tires will wear faster than the front (often on the inside edge). The staggered wheels are nice for traction and looks but you can't rotate tires. So you may go thru 2 sets of rear for every set of fronts.
I'd never seen those wheels before, Bob, but they do look good and have the same offsets/backspacing as 911 Fuchs in those sizes. If you look at the chart in the link below you'll see the 951 part numbered 7 & 8x16" Fuchs (off 944's) are different (they list the offset as the same but it can't be because the backspacing is different so ignore that). The weights are wrong too- Gordon Nichols weighed the original Fuchs 16's he has and the numbers for the 16" Fuchs in the chart are off (heavy) by 4 or 5 (I want to say 5?) pounds. The weights of the 16" wheels are only 1 pound or so heavier than the same width 15" wheel.
https://members.rennlist.com/911pcars/WheelWts.html
note- does anybody know how to turn the chart (even just the Mahle/Fuchs section?) in this link into a pic (jpg?) that we can post here (and then I can download it into my computer) and then we'll always have it? Come on- a lot of you know way more about these things than I do!
At those prices (close to $200 per wheel plus shipping) it seems that for a little more you could find some originals and drop 16 or 20 pounds of unsprung and rotating weight. 20 pounds may not seem like much, but if you're interested in your car handling (and braking) the best it can it is a bit of a big deal. I realize that it will be more work to track down original wheels at a (fairly) reasonable price, there may be shipping and then they may very well need refinishing, so it all depends on your priorities. I get it if you go for the TIrerack option. Do you know what tire sizes you want to run? I want to say that Bill's car above has 205/50-16's and 225/50-16's on it but don't quote me on that. I've always thought that a widebody (someone once called a widebody a fat chick in a thong and I think the name does fit some cars, but Bill's and Jesse's cars above just look badass!) would look positively bitchin' with 245's on the back, but I don't think anybody's ever tried it. This would be a time when having a good relationship with your tire guy would be a benefit. Al
PS- don't worry about the center caps on those wheels being wrong- your car isn't a Porsche so it's not a big deal.
WOLFGANG posted:As Gordon pointed out - rear tires will wear faster than the front (often on the inside edge). The staggered wheels are nice for traction and looks but you can't rotate tires. So you may go thru 2 sets of rear for every set of fronts.
This is where I get confused on the offset... if I wanted (as an example) to have all 4 rims be 16" x 7, the offset would have to be one or the other. But the tire rack option I was looking at show different offsets from front to back rims. How are you guys who wish to rotate rims by having all 4 being the same... deal with this offset difference?
I want an inexpensive set that look decent and do not intend to race or even highway drive, so weight was not so much a priority at this time... compared to paying a hefty price for rims/tires on a kit car
ALB posted:I'd never seen those wheels before, Bob, but they do look good and have the same offsets/backspacing as 911 Fuchs in those sizes. If you look at the chart in the link below you'll see the 951 part numbered 7 & 8x16" Fuchs (off 944's) are different (they list the offset as the same but it can't be because the backspacing is different so ignore that). The weights are wrong too- Gordon Nichols weighed the original Fuchs 16's he has and the numbers for the 16" Fuchs in the chart are off (heavy) by 4 or 5 (I want to say 5?) pounds. The weights of the 16" wheels are only 1 pound or so heavier than the same width 15" wheel.
https://members.rennlist.com/911pcars/WheelWts.html
note- does anybody know how to turn the chart (even just the Mahle/Fuchs section?) in this link into a pic (jpg?) that we can post here (and then I can download it into my computer) and then we'll always have it? Come on- a lot of you know way more about these things than I do!
At those prices (close to $200 per wheel plus shipping) it seems that for a little more you could find some originals and drop 16 or 20 pounds of unsprung and rotating weight. 20 pounds may not seem like much, but if you're interested in your car handling (and braking) the best it can it is a bit of a big deal. I realize that it will be more work to track down original wheels at a (fairly) reasonable price, there may be shipping and then they may very well need refinishing, so it all depends on your priorities. I get it if you go for the TIrerack option. Do you know what tire sizes you want to run? I want to say that Bill's car above has 205/50-16's and 225/50-16's on it but don't quote me on that. I've always thought that a widebody (someone once called a widebody a fat chick in a thong and I think the name does fit some cars, but Bill's and Jesse's cars above just look badass!) would look positively bitchin' with 245's on the back, but I don't think anybody's ever tried it. This would be a time when having a good relationship with your tire guy would be a benefit. Al
PS- don't worry about the center caps on those wheels being wrong- your car isn't a Porsche so it's not a big deal.
I believe Gordon may have suggested upping the rim diameter from 15" to 16 (or even possibly 17") and going with 40's rather than 50's on the tires.
I know that my goal is to fill the wide body flares up, and at an affordable rate. So I am looking to:
1) get spacer/adapters converting from 4 lug to 5 lug
2) Was hoping to use those Starke rims from Tire Rack (So I need to find out what adapter works with those.
https://www.tirerack.com/wheel...pub-7695515998152344
3) figure out 16 vs 17" and 50's vs 40's and whether to get different fronts from back rims, and if all 4 are to be the same, which offset to choose.
4) All at an affordable rate... install and cruise!
I was hoping all that would work out somehow. This is madness... lol
Fuchs Chart for the masses - Sorry, I only could find this WORD doc but I created it from your chart link, Al
See the attachment.
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Sorry Gordon... can you explain what I am looking at on this chart? I don’t understand the hub part on the right. I promise, I am soaking all this like a sponge!!! 😂
Is it the size of rim I need to shop for to work with my early 70’s chassis/drums?
Gordon Nichols posted:Fuchs Chart for the masses - Sorry, I only could find this WORD doc but I created it from your chart link, Al
See the attachment.
Thanks, but I have it as a Jpg, Gordon. It's quite handy and I've posted it before. It's missing a few things, though- weights, the Mahle/Gasburner wheels and a couple of Fuchs sizes- 11x15 (not that anyone of us would ever use it, and they're very rare- even the people on Rennlist don't have any info on them) and the 951 part numbered 7x16 (that's the same offset/backspacing as the 911R 7x15) that I didn't know existed until now.
Just a note on the Rennlist chart- the 951xxxxxx 7x16 Fuchs has the extra inch add to the inside and should read 49mm for the offset- the same as the 911R 7x15 (which is very rare and has the extra width added to the inside of the 6" wheel as well). I have never seen a 951 7x16, but if the chart is correct then with either of these wheels you can run a little wider rim (and tire) under the back of a non-flared Speedster. The 7" 911R wheels are worth so much I took a pair of later (flat) 6x15 Fuchs and had them widened 1" on the inside of the wheels, and with my faux R 7x15's I've got 195's under the rear fenders with irs suspension and type 1 rear drums.
The stuff on the right (9-digit numbers) are the Porsche part numbers for the wheel defined to the left of the tall vertical line.
The short vertical mark roughly in the middle of each wheel line gives you the approximate position of the hub flange for each wheel.
From the RoadKill Customs web site:
There are four important measurements that are used to categorize and identify a wheel for fitment purposes.
- Rim Diameter The actual diameter of the wheel at the point where the tire bead seats (NOT the outer lip of the rim).
- Rim Width Measure from the inside of the outer lip at the bead seating point to the inner lip.
- Back Spacing From the inside of the wheel at the point where it contacts the hub, brake drum or axle flange to the inside edge (lip) of the wheel.
- Bolt Pattern The measured diameter of an imaginary circle formed by the centers of the wheel lugs or bolt holes.
8" wide rims on an IRS rear with 225-ish 50-series is about all you can fit under a CMC flared body unless you go to a 40-series tire.
Remember that the adapter will be pushing your rims out towards the fender lip so take that into account when you calculate your needed backspacing, and also plan on about 3/4" - 1" of tire sticking out beyond the metal rim (measure the tires on your daily driver for a good indication of this).
But I think you're already on the right track.
A side by side with Porsche's website of the real thing 
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OverKILLLL Bob posted:A side by side with Porsche's website of the real thing
Lest we not forget Stark’s is building Speedsters on top of Boxsters.
Robert M posted:OverKILLLL Bob posted:A side by side with Porsche's website of the real thing
Lest we not forget Stark’s is building Speedsters on top of Boxsters.
STARK building "anything" is a presumption of performance
I will be the guinea pig and go for it. I'll let you know how it goes once I get everything together. I will get the Starke rims, 16"x 7 , 205/50/16 tires , and 4 lug vw to 5 lug 5-130 bolt pattern Porsche aluminum adapters.
...fingers crossed!
There are methods to confirm wheel off set and tire width fit. Do confirm back spacing , tire tread and overall width, rather than just wing it with a hope and prayer which can be costly...mock it up.
OverKILLLL Bob posted:I will be the guinea pig and go for it. I'll let you know how it goes once I get everything together. I will get the Starke rims, 16"x 7 , 205/50/16 tires , and 4 lug vw to 5 lug 5-130 bolt pattern Porsche aluminum adapters.
...fingers crossed!
FYI You might need 45. I have 16 x 7 and 8. I had 50 and rub. 45 very slight. Some did not have issue with 50.
Yeah, the problem with CMC bodies - Ok, so maybe there are a couple of problems, but no more - Is that they tend to be offset to one side at the rear, probably because the assembler didn't take the time to make sure the body was centered left/right between the wheel hub flanges or something before tightening it down. It's something that just wasn't a concern to many, so once you get some wheels tucked under there you find that there is a difference in the gaps between the top of the wheel opening lip and the top of the tire between the sides, sometimes as much as an inch.
Get up in there with the wheels you have now and measure the gap between the top of the lip and the tire on both sides to see how close they are - the important thing to note is the gap of the closer one. Then, do the best you can to measure to that same lip point you chose earlier from a vertical line drawn across the hub/drum flange (using a big carpenter's square helps here). That's the max amount of space you have from the drum to work with (subtract at least 1/4" for tire differences). Lastly, measure how much tire is sticking out beyond the metal of the rim for a guestimate of what you'll see on any new wheel/tire combo you choose - not exact, but better than winging it. Doing that will define how much wheel you can have between the drum and body.
Just remember that once you get a wheel that you think will work, you can fudge how far out into the wheel opening it sits by playing with the thickness of the spacers. Everything relates, but using the spacers makes things more forgiving when you're trying to figure it all out. However, if you get full custom wheels made then you'll need to get all of the dimensions right before they throw a big aluminum puck on the CNC milling machine. Once they cut, they're yours.
I figured it all out by using dimensioned drawings that I made on graph paper after measuring the heck out of everything, but I bought the Fuchs wheels first because (a.) Porsche used them on the 911 so they're gonna fit, right? 
and (b.) I could get them to where they fit and looked good by playing with the spacer/adapter thickness. I used a piece of 2" X 6" as my first "spacer" which showed me that a 1-1/2" spacer was too thick for the rears, especially on my (closer) driver's side so I ended up going with 1-1/8" adapters from Pelican. I don't think Pelican carries adapters anymore (I haven't seen them recently) but lots of others do.
Alan Merklin posted:There are methods to confirm wheel off set and tire width fit. Do confirm back spacing , tire tread and overall width, rather than just wing it with a hope and prayer which can be costly...mock it up.
Thank you. I was not aware that I would have an issue with these particular rims. I was in Gordon’s camp where I assumed they would fit, and the back spacing on the Starke rims matched that of the mid 80’s 911 fuchs. I am going to try all the methods Gordon has listed...
And here were the adapters I was looking at. Wasn’t going to buy spacers unless I felt I could or needed them. The rims being 7” and the adapters adding to that, I thought would be sufficient.
x 4 lug to 5 conversion https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B..._api_i_av8nDbRGX650B
Haha now you have me second guessing! 😅
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Bob, I got my wheel spacers from Summit Racing. Link attached.
https://www.summitracing.com/s...p;sw=Wheel%20Spacers
The spacers I got for my fake Fuchs (5x130mm) are similar to these...
Quality billet products at a decent price. I hope you find this info useful. We all enjoy watching like-minded gear head' progress on their projects. 
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MusbJim posted:Bob, I got my wheel spacers from Summit Racing. Link attached.
https://www.summitracing.com/s...p;sw=Wheel%20Spacers
The spacers I got for my fake Fuchs (5x130mm) are similar to these...
Quality billet products at a decent price. I hope you find this info useful. We all enjoy watching like-minded gear head' progress on their projects.
Thanks for the info. I will try and measure things to death like Gordon suggested and we will make the best educated decision on what will be needed!
Gordon Nichols posted:Yeah, the problem with CMC bodies - Ok, so maybe there are a couple of problems, but no more
Get up in there with the wheels you have now and measure the gap between the top of the lip and the tire on both sides to see how close they are - the important thing to note is the gap of the closer one. Then, do the best you can to measure to that same lip point you chose earlier from a vertical line drawn across the hub/drum flange (using a big carpenter's square helps here). That's the max amount of space you have from the drum to work with (subtract at least 1/4" for tire differences). Lastly, measure how much tire is sticking out beyond the metal of the rim for a guestimate of what you'll see on any new wheel/tire combo you choose - not exact, but better than winging it. Doing that will define how much wheel you can have between the drum and body.
Just remember that once you get a wheel that you think will work, you can fudge how far out into the wheel opening it sits by playing with the thickness of the spacers. Everything relates, but using the spacers makes things more forgiving when you're trying to figure it all out. However, if you get full custom wheels made then you'll need to get all of the dimensions right before they throw a big aluminum puck on the CNC milling machine. Once they cut, they're yours.
I figured it all out by using dimensioned drawings that I made on graph paper after measuring the heck out of everything, but I bought the Fuchs wheels first because (a.) Porsche used them on the 911 so they're gonna fit, right?
The right rear might need more spacing as Gordon mentioned the wide body is off centered. This was the case for my wide body.
calmotion posted:Gordon Nichols posted:Yeah, the problem with CMC bodies - Ok, so maybe there are a couple of problems, but no more
Get up in there with the wheels you have now and measure the gap between the top of the lip and the tire on both sides to see how close they are - the important thing to note is the gap of the closer one. Then, do the best you can to measure to that same lip point you chose earlier from a vertical line drawn across the hub/drum flange (using a big carpenter's square helps here). That's the max amount of space you have from the drum to work with (subtract at least 1/4" for tire differences). Lastly, measure how much tire is sticking out beyond the metal of the rim for a guestimate of what you'll see on any new wheel/tire combo you choose - not exact, but better than winging it. Doing that will define how much wheel you can have between the drum and body.
Just remember that once you get a wheel that you think will work, you can fudge how far out into the wheel opening it sits by playing with the thickness of the spacers. Everything relates, but using the spacers makes things more forgiving when you're trying to figure it all out. However, if you get full custom wheels made then you'll need to get all of the dimensions right before they throw a big aluminum puck on the CNC milling machine. Once they cut, they're yours.
I figured it all out by using dimensioned drawings that I made on graph paper after measuring the heck out of everything, but I bought the Fuchs wheels first because (a.) Porsche used them on the 911 so they're gonna fit, right?
The right rear might need more spacing as Gordon mentioned the wide body is off centered. This was the case for my wide body.
I did speak with my dad about that. He said that he had it centered as perfectly as he could... variance is 1/8”. He said he toiled and worked on this to be absolutely sure... which is nice.
The car is on blocks and I would need to get it all put together to measure it properly. But here is a photo of the existing set up (205/50/15) Might be tight with 4 lug to 5 adapters and 205/50/16
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OverKILLLL Bob posted:The car is on blocks and I would need to get it all put together to measure it properly. But here is a photo of the existing set up (205/50/15) Might be tight with 4 lug to 5 adapters and 205/50/16
205 x50x16 we needed to do negative camber. Readjusted back a little after doing 45
OverKILLLL Bob posted:The car is on blocks and I would need to get it all put together to measure it properly. But here is a photo of the existing set up (205/50/15) Might be tight with 4 lug to 5 adapters and 205/50/16
I thought you could just buy a rear drum with five lugs instead of four. Or will that only fit wide five rims?
@Robert M wrote- "I thought you could just buy a rear drum with five lugs instead of four. Or will that only fit wide five rims?
I don't know if any of the VW parts places sell rear drums drilled with the 5x130 mm bolt pattern but (I think) all the disc brake manufacturers have it as an option, and late (4x130 mm) pattern drums can be drilled to the Porsche wheel pattern. 37/64" holes will give the proper press fit for oe Porsche wheel studs (measure if you have anything other than factory pieces) and you want close to 30 mm of stud sticking out of the mounting surface. Karmann Ghia front hubs can be drilled this way as well.
Those drums you provided the link to, Robert, are early 5x205mm (I think you already know that)- because of the shape of the casting and strengthening ribs I don't think they can be drilled to 5x130.
Just remember that those original CMC gold/chrome wheels are dished out something like 3" to get them out into the wheel well.
If you were to get a different wheel with similar dimensions and a 4 X 130 bolt pattern you should be all set - the work is done for ya.
ALB posted:@Robert M wrote- "I thought you could just buy a rear drum with five lugs instead of four. Or will that only fit wide five rims?
I don't know if any of the VW parts places sell rear drums drilled with the 5x130 mm bolt pattern but (I think) all the disc brake manufacturers have it as an option, and late (4x130 mm) pattern drums can be drilled to the Porsche wheel pattern. 37/64" holes will give the proper press fit for oe Porsche wheel studs (measure if you have anything other than factory pieces) and you want close to 30 mm of stud sticking out of the mounting surface. Karmann Ghia front hubs can be drilled this way as well.
Those drums you provided the link to, Robert, are early 5x205mm (I think you already know that)- because of the shape of the casting and strengthening ribs I don't think they can be drilled to 5x130.
I probably shouldn't post while driving....whoops...which is why I wasn't sure if they'd work. I just remembered that while looking for new 4 lug drums I saw those 5 lug drums and thought they might work. It doesn't sound like they will Al, thank you for clarifying that fact.
Gordon Nichols posted:Just remember that those original CMC gold/chrome wheels are dished out something like 3" to get them out into the wheel well.
If you were to get a different wheel with similar dimensions and a 4 X 130 bolt pattern you should be all set - the work is done for ya.
The gold/chrome Cal Master Sport Wheel Systems original CMC wheel are 15x7 and appear to have a 3” dish and 4” offset (measured it today). I believe the bolt pattern to be 4-130.
If I am understanding you on this... that would eliminate any type of Fuch rim as they all seem to be 5 lug. The ones I was eyeing are 5-130.
Yup.
All of the Porsche rims are 5 X 130
OverKILLLL Bob posted:Gordon Nichols posted:Just remember that those original CMC gold/chrome wheels are dished out something like 3" to get them out into the wheel well.
If you were to get a different wheel with similar dimensions and a 4 X 130 bolt pattern you should be all set - the work is done for ya.
The gold/chrome Cal Master Sport Wheel Systems original CMC wheel are 15x7 and appear to have a 3” dish and 4” offset (measured it today). I believe the bolt pattern to be 4-130.
If I am understanding you on this... that would eliminate any type of Fuch rim as they all seem to be 5 lug. The ones I was eyeing are 5-130.
Gordon Nichols posted:Yup.
All of the Porsche rims are 5 X 130
As Gordon said, Porsche bolt pattern is 5x130 mm. Karmann Ghia front hub/discs and type 1 (Beetle) rear drums can be drilled to that pattern, though, so those rims are possible- it's just a little more work than buying wheels and bolting them on. There are also adapters.
Here's a link to new quality CSP German pre-drilled 5x130mm rear drums for '68-76 VW T1 chassis. $104 each.
C23-501-310 - 5 X 130mm BOLT PATTERN REAR BRAKE DRUM BEETLE / GHIA 68-79 - (A20)
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductD...ductCode=C23-501-310
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I'm really learning to love CSP and their high-quality stuff. Nice find, Wolfgang!
Wow more things to consider!!! Madness!
I’ll take a closer look. Thank you @WOLFGANG
WOLFGANG posted:Here's a link to new quality CSP German pre-drilled 5x130mm rear drums for '68-76 VW T1 chassis. $104 each.
C23-501-310 - 5 X 130mm BOLT PATTERN REAR BRAKE DRUM BEETLE / GHIA 68-79 - (A20)
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductD...ductCode=C23-501-310
@WOLFGANG are you suggesting these rear drums and adapters up front? I tried finding a similar equivalent for the front and didn’t see them in the website
I was suggesting upgrading from front OEM drums to discs with proper bolt pattern to match the wheels you choose. Replacement front disc brake kits are $300-500 for front and are a vast improvement over OEM drums.
The rear drum I showed is the Porsche 5 lug pattern but if you are undecided over Chevy or Porsche then there is a drum drilled to accommodate both. They are cheaper ($70 ea) than the Porsche pattern shown above - just because CSP parts are more costly (most will say the quality is superior).
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductD...ode=ACC%2DC10%2D6750
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Okay thanks for explaining.
OverKILLLL Bob posted:WOLFGANG posted:Here's a link to new quality CSP German pre-drilled 5x130mm rear drums for '68-76 VW T1 chassis. $104 each.
C23-501-310 - 5 X 130mm BOLT PATTERN REAR BRAKE DRUM BEETLE / GHIA 68-79 - (A20)
https://www2.cip1.com/ProductD...ductCode=C23-501-310
@WOLFGANG are you suggesting these rear drums and adapters up front? I tried finding a similar equivalent for the front and didn’t see them in the website
Are you running drums front and rear?
His first picture showed 4 lug drums on the front - so disc upgrade is the way to go.
This is turning into something that may take a while (a winter project?) so I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest- don't order tires right away. When you have the rims in hand and you can bolt them on to the car (adapters or re-drilled discs and drums), find a used tire shop and buy a junk 205/50 or 225/50, get it mounted and see how it will fit in the rear. Yeah, it'll cost a few bucks, but then you'll know. And if you go with 225/50's on the back it will look soooo badass!
Just a suggestion- Yoda out (for now, but back you know I will be!)
PS- And for those who's criticism is you can't rotate tires with different sizes front and rear- REALLY? You're going to worry about whether you get 8 or 10 (or even 12) years out of a set of tires when they really should be replaced after 6 or so years any way? It's a fairweather fun car, for Pete's sake! (I want to use another term but I'm trying to keep it family friendly!)
Ok- with that off my chest, I feel better now...